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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 06:04:30
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This is one of the rare times a piece of 4E material just may help out some 3E gaming. I noticed one of Dragon #371 is an article on the "What If?" for Warforged being native to the Realms (and Genasi being native to Eberron, but the former is more interesting and on topic).
I am eager to read this one. I doubt it'll be one of those "this is official" sort of things as I see the article turning out to be "if it was official, this is how we'd do it" but I hope it's an interesting read.
I guess I brought it up on this forum since it involves running material in the Realms and I remember some of the folks here stating they do run Warforged in the Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 12:25:47
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Huh. I've already written an article, myself, that ports warforged to the Realms. It was done on a small scale (two dozen total; of those, at least 9 of the first batch were destroyed). I tied them to the Rauthamar-Narfell conflict, changed their outward appearance some, and added some details drawn from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work  ). Their backstory drew, in part, from the concept of soulmechs from the Dragonstar setting.
I'd like to read this Dragon article to see how they do it, but I'm not paying for it. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 14:04:22
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| Sorry, I'm not interested in the article. I like Warforged and Eberron. But they belong together and I don't much like them in the Realms. Sure, the occasional planes-hopping visitor is okay, but when you try to detail an entire optional race in another world, pretty soon it becomes canon and, lo and behold, the worlds no longer look any different. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 15:01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Sorry, I'm not interested in the article. I like Warforged and Eberron. But they belong together and I don't much like them in the Realms. Sure, the occasional planes-hopping visitor is okay, but when you try to detail an entire optional race in another world, pretty soon it becomes canon and, lo and behold, the worlds no longer look any different.
Well, my version does tie in to existing Realmslore, and I kept the numbers small to keep them from being just another imported race. I also suggested that since it was done on such a small scale, that some of the warforged-specific stuff like their special attachment dealies.
That said, having read the blurb on the site about the Dragon article, I'm worried about how the importing will be done. I'm concerned that it'll be another Sellplague-type bit of illogic, and/or that it'll just be something that's there, with little connection to prior lore. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 16:19:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Sorry, I'm not interested in the article. I like Warforged and Eberron. But they belong together and I don't much like them in the Realms. Sure, the occasional planes-hopping visitor is okay, but when you try to detail an entire optional race in another world, pretty soon it becomes canon and, lo and behold, the worlds no longer look any different.
Well, my version does tie in to existing Realmslore, and I kept the numbers small to keep them from being just another imported race. I also suggested that since it was done on such a small scale, that some of the warforged-specific stuff like their special attachment dealies.
That said, having read the blurb on the site about the Dragon article, I'm worried about how the importing will be done. I'm concerned that it'll be another Sellplague-type bit of illogic, and/or that it'll just be something that's there, with little connection to prior lore.
The Warforged already exist in my world on a small scale as well. Interesting enough, I was playing a wizard devoted to "inventing" new sentient magical constructs and magical items before anyone knew the existence of Eberron and the Warforged. My wizard had already successfully made a "Warforged" as it is known now with a sentient, living being, but in doing so new questions started to arise.
The wizard I played was a student in history of all the past conflicts of what happened with creatures created and/or enslaved to serve their creators. This is how he was partly able to expand upon the already forgotten lore to create Helmed Horrors and other obscure constructs. But also this put in a unique perspective of how he should go around introducing his creation to Faerun. Finally he came to the conclusion that his creation would eventually be used for conquest and slave labor and kept them hidden.
Long story short, the Warforged he created he watches over, with assistance from magical devices that "record" this information, and observes how they interact with the world around them and develope. Some have specific skills to assist them while others just eventually pick them up as they go along.
Anyways, that is how we solved the issue with the Warforged in my groups campaign setting. Since my wizard character isn't playable anymore, at least with the current edition, anyone who plays one of them in the Realms is pretty much free to do whatever they want without my wizard's interference. The only thing that happens to be odd that occurs sometimes is wierd devices that only the Warforged can use just happen to "show up" on "random" occassions when the items might be needed or helpful, but those are rare.
But about the article if it turns out to be another Spellplague event I'm just going to ignore it. Warforged as I just said previously are already there or outsiders that are travelers from other planes. If they actually introduce them in a more interesting way that makes logical sense for the most part, I'll incorperate it into our group's history on the Realms.
That's how I would handle it in any case.
~Ghost King~ |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 16:28:42
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| I'm not really that interested in this article either, to be honest--and I'm not going to purchase it because I've heard from some reliable sources that DDI is still riddled with problems I don't care to deal with. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 16:31:18
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Also, I have to put it out there (and I'm sorry, Wooly).
BC wrote the article. I don't know what it is, but I just have a gut feeling that he's trying to show how cool Eberron is to the Realms fans. I know that there's nothing to back it up, but my gut feelings are seldom wrong. I don't want to slam Mr. Cordell, because he is a great game designer. But I also have personal experience with a lot of people that think that a setting/game is really cool and can't understand why their friends don't like it. So they spend every chance trying to get them to try it, sure that they will agree once they try it. Heck, I've been guilty of the same attitude for Shadowrun and some video games. Fortunately, my friends are able to call me on it and I back down realizing it's a personal love.
Anyway, back on topic. Warforged in the Realms just don't 'fit' in my mind. The occasional group that accidentally 'landed' in the Realms, like Wooly's version is okay, but they should be an exception to the rule. Same with genasi in Eberron. In a world where (almost) every elemental has been enslaved to power airships, trains and god-knows-what-else, a race of beings with genasi blood seems to take more away from the Shifters and Changelings. You put those three subraces together and we're talking 'bout Revolution. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 16:44:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm not really that interested in this article either, to be honest--and I'm not going to purchase it because I've heard from some reliable sources that DDI is still riddled with problems I don't care to deal with.
Yeah... With the problems that have been discussed, I'm certainly not inclined to give them too much of my money -- especially since I'm only interested in this one article. I think, since they flipped to pay-only content, that I've only been interested in one or two articles, and not enough to pay the monthly fee for them. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 16:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Also, I have to put it out there (and I'm sorry, Wooly).
BC wrote the article. I don't know what it is, but I just have a gut feeling that he's trying to show how cool Eberron is to the Realms fans. I know that there's nothing to back it up, but my gut feelings are seldom wrong. I don't want to slam Mr. Cordell, because he is a great game designer. But I also have personal experience with a lot of people that think that a setting/game is really cool and can't understand why their friends don't like it. So they spend every chance trying to get them to try it, sure that they will agree once they try it. Heck, I've been guilty of the same attitude for Shadowrun and some video games. Fortunately, my friends are able to call me on it and I back down realizing it's a personal love.
Anyway, back on topic. Warforged in the Realms just don't 'fit' in my mind. The occasional group that accidentally 'landed' in the Realms, like Wooly's version is okay, but they should be an exception to the rule. Same with genasi in Eberron. In a world where (almost) every elemental has been enslaved to power airships, trains and god-knows-what-else, a race of beings with genasi blood seems to take more away from the Shifters and Changelings. You put those three subraces together and we're talking 'bout Revolution.
Well it is his job technically to sell D&D products not just the Realms. The article is to get the Eberron fans to port over to the new FR and possibly have some FR fans get a taste of what Eberron is about. Doesn't mean someone is putting a gun to your head and telling you to switch. If you don't like it don't include it - end of story.
As for Genasi in Eberron...*crickets*...
Yeah, I have no argument for that except to say I laugh at the Eberron boards for now they are feeling the hate for the changes that over here have been expressed about the Realms. Guess they think change isn't such a good thing now do they?
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm not really that interested in this article either, to be honest--and I'm not going to purchase it because I've heard from some reliable sources that DDI is still riddled with problems I don't care to deal with.
As for buying articles I don't buy...I "acquire" through other means. And I'll never use the DDI system just because I'm not paying a subscription to play D&D. If I want to play online I'll just use OpenRPG or another die roller/instant messenger system. Why pay for something if you can get it for free?
~Ghost King~ |
Edited by - Ghost King on 07 Jan 2009 16:56:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 16:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Also, I have to put it out there (and I'm sorry, Wooly).
No worries. You were not at all disrespectful, and you weren't speculating. I don't care what someone's opinion is, so long as they aren't disrespectful and they stick to verifiable info. 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Anyway, back on topic. Warforged in the Realms just don't 'fit' in my mind. The occasional group that accidentally 'landed' in the Realms, like Wooly's version is okay, but they should be an exception to the rule. Same with genasi in Eberron. In a world where (almost) every elemental has been enslaved to power airships, trains and god-knows-what-else, a race of beings with genasi blood seems to take more away from the Shifters and Changelings. You put those three subraces together and we're talking 'bout Revolution.
Well, my idea for warforged in the Realms has them created locally, on a small scale, in part as an experiment. They're not as much warforged as they are something functionally similar. Roughly similar appearance, same basic function, but their backstory is quite different. Their intelligence was deliberate, and they certainly weren't mass-produced. I was trying to make them something that was warforged enough for someone who liked the race, but different enough to not scare off people who don't want to mix Eber-whatsit elements in.
Genasi do make a degree of sense for Eber-whatsit, at least among those working with the enslaved elemental tech. I'd have them rare among those groups, and virtually unheard of elsewhere. And from what I remember, they just enslave fire and air elementals, so those would be the only genasi.
Shifters and changelings are races that I think can fit into the Realms with no problem. A slight tweak to the racial backstory and -- most importantly! -- keeping them very rare, and it's a good match. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jan 2009 17:08:27 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 17:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<snip>And from what I remember, they just enslave fire and air elementals, so those would be the only genasi.<snip>
The fire and air are the most 'well-known'. There are water-bound ships that use water elementals to propel the boats (kinda like jet skis) and there are earth elementals that have been bound to carts to make 'horse-less carriages' for traveling overland (this was actually statted out in one of the first Eberron adventures). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 17:59:38
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Well as I sat here thinking about it I suppose Genasi could be made in the Mournlands from "exposure" to the wierd effects going on there. Similar to radiation fallout except it is a combination of magical/elemental transformation. Or a rift to other plane(s) is permantantly left open.
But as far as people reacting towards people of elemental nature or vice versa I would say it would be rather cold (figuratively speaking of course).
I would think since the Genasi are humanoid creatures though stigma would just be the same as say a Shifter or a Changling.
But that's just my best guess Ashe, and I apologize if my last post was sounded a bit harsh. Not the intent, but suffice to say I think people just need to agree that not everyone shares the same views on what is "cool" and what isn't.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 18:42:06
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| Oh, I agree totally. I know that what I think is cool others couldn't care less and vice versa. So no problem! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 21:31:40
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| My idea for warforged in the Realms is simple: with the very rare exception of a visitor from Eberron, they simply do not exist. And, to be honest, I don't much like warforged in general... Eberron or otherwise. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 00:34:30
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So no Realmslore for awhile, and now a 'What If...' style article, making it unofficial, and also sharing space with how to use Genasi in Eberron?
I'm I ever glad I didn't bother with the DDI.
You know what DDi stands for? If your considering paying for that, Don't Do it!
Anyhow, like Wooly, I've worked them in as well, also to the east, but much more so (although I have also tied-in Raumather, along with the Bloodforges of the Ue and Imaskar). Mine look like a cross between Warforged and Samurai. 
And because I located them in K-T, Faerūn-only players can use them or not, and it makes no difference.
Anyhow, also like Wooly, I would still like to see their take on them, but I'm not going to subscribe just to read an article I am only mildly interested in, which shares space with an Eberron one.
If they ever came out with a an FR-only version of the DDI, I might consider it... maybe. But as it stands, with loads of core stuff, previews (glorified advertisements), 4e rules, and stuff from other settings, I just don't see how it is of any use to me in it's current iteration. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2009 17:39:55 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 02:07:03
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| Interesting. I'd have thought that the Warforged would have come more out of the gnomish inventors and Gondsmen than the eastern Realms... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 02:31:25
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I did the same thing in my FR game --- very few and tied to the Raumathar-Narfell War. Fits perfectly. As for Warforged components and such, they either have to make it themselves, have someone else make it, or start looting ancient Raumathar ruins.
Personally, I do not agree with leaving the Warforged as an "Eberron Only" concept for fantasy gaming. I believ the Warforged are a LONG overdue character type in D&D to detail, and it just so happens the concept got molded into Eberron instead of becoming a general D&D race to play. That doesn't make it Eberron to me, in that sense. There's always been adventures or stories involving intelligent magical constructs in any setting, why limit it ONLY to Eberron?
I have a friend who lets me borrow and shares his DDI articles and 4E PDF books with me so I don't pay for any of it, thankfully. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 04:36:59
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| I can not vision Warforged in my realms, other than some sort of rare, intelligent construct. Maybe surviving from Hulruaa or some such place or as in Neverwinter nights 2, where the character puts back together that construct. I would not have a bunch running around Toril looking to fit in. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 08:04:04
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I can't vision them in FR mostly cause of their artwork
I rather have two other construct races, golmoids from Dragon, invented in Lantan, and maugs (planar creations of Raumathar)
Kalashtar are an excellent race, for the Utter East
changelings as batrachi descendants |
Edited by - Quale on 08 Jan 2009 11:13:24 |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 09:11:07
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i'd might use Warforged if i ran a FR campaign and someone wanted it ... but it'd both change some of the appearence (making it more construct like) and the lore ...
i'd personally tie it up on two/three different parts ... Lantan gnomes enterprising in Halruaa, old creations from Ilmaskii ... or lastly a wierd screwup with construct creation in a wild magic area (which kills the wizard and consume half of the his soul and mindwiping the memory) |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 15:56:24
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No, I wouldn't have a bunch of these running around Toril, either. I have less of these in my FR game than there are planetouched or even goliaths.
I saw the golmoids in Dragon and I can't remember if they have the living construct subtype or not? And if not, why don't they? I am guessing because they're literally just awakened constructs as opposed to something more elaborate like Warforged, which gives me all the more reason to introduce Warforged since they're the only ones with a living construct subtype. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 16:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
No, I wouldn't have a bunch of these running around Toril, either. I have less of these in my FR game than there are planetouched or even goliaths.
I saw the golmoids in Dragon and I can't remember if they have the living construct subtype or not? And if not, why don't they? I am guessing because they're literally just awakened constructs as opposed to something more elaborate like Warforged, which gives me all the more reason to introduce Warforged since they're the only ones with a living construct subtype.
I just reread their description... While golmoids started out as constructs, and do have a stone body, there is nothing in the description that says or even implies that they are still constructs. They are explicitly referred to as humanoids. Only the stony skin and a passing reference to being tireless reflect their construct origins.
And since they don't go all the way and remain constructs, I'm not as enthusiastic about them. I have a fascination for constructs, especially any kind of sentient ones. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 17:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I did the same thing in my FR game --- very few and tied to the Raumathar-Narfell War. Fits perfectly. As for Warforged components and such, they either have to make it themselves, have someone else make it, or start looting ancient Raumathar ruins.
I might get booed for this idea, but if I were to have Warforged created in FR by any one people it would probably be the Old Shanatar Kingdom of the Dwarves not the Lantanese or Raumathar.
It sounds like to me from everyone's examples that they already had their constructs, such as the Netherese having Helmed Horrors. They're intelligent constructs but not necessarily living constructs which implies Warforged are more evolved than their counter-parts(or weaker depending on your perspective).
But back to the dwarves and Shanatar, I think this makes the most logical sense compared to all the others. Dwarves by nature are craftsmen/craftswomen that are innovative and perfect on everything they do. While they may have not been able to wield arcane magics they did have clerics, and all dwarves in their life time do get to make one mighty creation.
Plus I believe Moradin is known for being The Soul Forger so it would make sense his people would forge creatures that are durable, unshakable warriors to fight along side themselves. You could even have it where many are still lost in the Underdark or sparsely dotted across the surface in disrepair or guarding old ruins long forgotten.
And perhaps since Shanatar was in the middle of Lantan, Netherese, and Raumathar that they may have gotten their idea to copy such designs and try to make their own versions. They just weren't able to achieve the level to dwarven craftsmanship.
You could even go as far as to say they made maybe a handful of forges capable of creating the Warforged were built but were either destroyed or forgotten about. Even the plans or crafting knowledge could be buried with the many other dwarven secrets of the Old Shanatar Kingdom. And with the numerous wars they fought both above and below Warforged numbers would probably be diminished considerably. Which is why you would have a rare to uncommon number of them still about.
As for the components I agree with your assestment, but would say dwarven ruins or dwarven settlements would have the greatest likelihood of finding ancient versions of them.
But I'm just trying to give the dwarves their due since it seems people aren't. And we all know one dwarf is worth ten of any other race in a fight, drinking, or crafting.
~Ghost King~
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Edited by - Ghost King on 08 Jan 2009 17:30:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 17:35:32
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The dwarven angle is a good idea... But there's one thing that makes it not work for me: the numbers. Dwarves are consummate craftsmen, and the time needed for such a feat would be prohibitive -- especially considering that their numbers have never been that large. While I can see dwarves crafting one or two living constructs here and there during times of peace, I don't see it happening during war.
I'd more readily expect sentient and animated weapons from dwarves, rather than something like warforged.
I favor the Rauthamar origin for two reasons: it was ages ago, so we get the whole ancient legacies thing going on, and because it's already established Realmslore that they were playing with golems and other constructs. It's easier to extrapolate that out just a bit to make something like warforged.
Oh, and the Rauthamar got the idea from the Imaskari. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Jan 2009 17:37:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 18:05:32
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This has been discussed ad-nauseum on the WotC boards, and all of the above ideas have been mentioned and they are all good.
While developing them in the Utter East thread/Netbook project at WotC, we came across the Bloodforges, which create Basal Golems (basically golems composed of 'solid' arcane energy, as opposed to 'Magical Golems', which are just energy). It just seemed a no-brainer to call these 'awakened' constructs "Bloodforged", and have them be very similar in all respects to Warforged.
This region, and the wars that were fought because and with them, are briefly touched upon in Brian James' Utter East vingette in the GHotR (pg.95).
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Interesting. I'd have thought that the Warforged would have come more out of the gnomish inventors and Gondsmen than the eastern Realms...
Well, the purpose of placing them "in the east" - weather nearby Raumather, or further field to the south and east - is to get them 'out of the way' for regular play.
Raumather just seems the best fit, overall, because of the limited lore we have on them, which tells us they were into 'constructs' for war, but very little else. I spun that as an outgrowth of the Imaskari (Shou) knowledge in that area, just as the Narfellians went a different route with the eldritch knowledge left-behind by fallen Imaskar (as did several others, like little-known Bhaluin and Bakar).
Warforged: Some people like them, some people hate them... and by placing them in out-of-the-way locales, you basically give the DM the option of how heavily he wants to use them, if at all. I like both the Netherease (based on Thalud tech) and Lantan/Gond angles, which is another way for a DM to limit them, without having to go the "whole race" route.
Shanater is good as well, but we already have lore pertaining to them going a different route (using Deepspawn), but I suppose over the thousands of years it existed, other methods of 'filling the ranks' of the Dwarves could have come and gone.
Whatever way people chose to go, it helps keep the flavor of FR intact if they are placed in "far-away" locales, or being remnants of long-lost civilizations. I've yet to hear of anyone plopping down a race of Warforges smack-dab in the middle of Faerūn... and that's a good thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2009 22:40:57 |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 18:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The dwarven angle is a good idea... But there's one thing that makes it not work for me: the numbers. Dwarves are consummate craftsmen, and the time needed for such a feat would be prohibitive -- especially considering that their numbers have never been that large. While I can see dwarves crafting one or two living constructs here and there during times of peace, I don't see it happening during war.
I'd more readily expect sentient and animated weapons from dwarves, rather than something like warforged.
I favor the Rauthamar origin for two reasons: it was ages ago, so we get the whole ancient legacies thing going on, and because it's already established Realmslore that they were playing with golems and other constructs. It's easier to extrapolate that out just a bit to make something like warforged.
Oh, and the Rauthamar got the idea from the Imaskari.
Fair enough. My lore is not as up-to-date that far back, so excuse the ignorance. I find it a bit disappointing that dwarves always get the "short-end of the stick" so to speak, but even with less numbers I still believe they alone would have mastered it first. Not saying eventually Rauthamar isn't capable of developing their own would-be Warforged, but I just see dwarves as crafters of all things great not just weapons or armor, but I'll admit they are second to none with those types of crafting.
I was aware of the low numbers of the dwarves, which is why I thought it more plausable for them to resort to creating the Warforged in the first place to shore up their numbers. And while I do agree they would take a great deal of time to create Warforged one by one, I don't think it is far fetched to say they would make their version of a Creation Forge in some places to increase production. Most likely, they would have done that as a deseperate act which would have been too late anyways.
With your added input though I think probably the four likely nations to have developed the Warforged, regardless of how many were created, would have been:
Netheril (for the fact they had the Nether Scrolls with one scroll devoted to making artifacts and another to constructs), Raumathar, Lantan, and Old Shanatar.
That way there would be a variety of such creations, but with Raumathar being prominent in items associated to Warforged-like constructs.
But if I'm not mistaken, isn't there a city in Faerun completely dedicated to Gond that is hundreds of years ahead of the Realms in technology and crafting? I'm getting that second hand information from someone else, but I'm pretty sure I read of such a place aside from Lantan. I don't think anyone once they enter the city can leave, however.
But back on topic, I don't necessarily disagree with you, Wooly, but I just think it is a bit disappointing that dwarves are the ones over looked just because they lack numbers.
Whatever the case, I'm saying that those nations I listed would have probably developed a living construct, but Raumathar as the biggest contributor to the whole from what you just brought to my attention.
Ghost King |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 18:59:00
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Well said, Markustay. The one time I forget to check for other posts before I go ahead and reply. Anyways, I agree with what you said.
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Edited by - Ghost King on 08 Jan 2009 19:00:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 19:07:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost King
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The dwarven angle is a good idea... But there's one thing that makes it not work for me: the numbers. Dwarves are consummate craftsmen, and the time needed for such a feat would be prohibitive -- especially considering that their numbers have never been that large. While I can see dwarves crafting one or two living constructs here and there during times of peace, I don't see it happening during war.
I'd more readily expect sentient and animated weapons from dwarves, rather than something like warforged.
I favor the Rauthamar origin for two reasons: it was ages ago, so we get the whole ancient legacies thing going on, and because it's already established Realmslore that they were playing with golems and other constructs. It's easier to extrapolate that out just a bit to make something like warforged.
Oh, and the Rauthamar got the idea from the Imaskari.
Fair enough. My lore is not as up-to-date that far back, so excuse the ignorance. I find it a bit disappointing that dwarves always get the "short-end of the stick" so to speak, but even with less numbers I still believe they alone would have mastered it first. Not saying eventually Rauthamar isn't capable of developing their own would-be Warforged, but I just see dwarves as crafters of all things great not just weapons or armor, but I'll admit they are second to none with those types of crafting.
I was aware of the low numbers of the dwarves, which is why I thought it more plausable for them to resort to creating the Warforged in the first place to shore up their numbers. And while I do agree they would take a great deal of time to create Warforged one by one, I don't think it is far fetched to say they would make their version of a Creation Forge in some places to increase production. Most likely, they would have done that as a deseperate act which would have been too late anyways.
With your added input though I think probably the four likely nations to have developed the Warforged, regardless of how many were created, would have been:
Netheril (for the fact they had the Nether Scrolls with one scroll devoted to making artifacts and another to constructs), Raumathar, Lantan, and Old Shanatar.
That way there would be a variety of such creations, but with Raumathar being prominent in items associated to Warforged-like constructs.
But if I'm not mistaken, isn't there a city in Faerun completely dedicated to Gond that is hundreds of years ahead of the Realms in technology and crafting? I'm getting that second hand information from someone else, but I'm pretty sure I read of such a place aside from Lantan. I don't think anyone once they enter the city can leave, however.
But back on topic, I don't necessarily disagree with you, Wooly, but I just think it is a bit disappointing that dwarves are the ones over looked just because they lack numbers.
Whatever the case, I'm saying that those nations I listed would have probably developed a living construct, but Raumathar as the biggest contributor to the whole from what you just brought to my attention.
Ghost King
I like dwarves, too, I just don't see them building warforged on anything other than an individual basis... Another factor I failed to mention: would dwarves really make something to fight for them? I don't think it really fits the dwarven mindset for them to make something that would replace a dwarf. Other kinds of war machines*, yes, but not something that would independently fight.
*Dwarves would be the most likely group to develop warjacks, I think, with gnomes and the Lantanna being the next most likely. I think a warjack would appeal to dwarven sensibilities, while remaining a machine of war that wasn't going to be a replacement dwarf. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 19:20:01
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| That is a fair assumption and I totally agree with them developing the warjacks with their gnomish cousins. I'll give the floor on the idea dwarves probably wouldn't have mass produced living constructs probably based on the fact you presented. I still think they would have been developed by individual dwarves just to see if they could do it just for the fame of doing so. But I'm sure it would have been a rare occurance since as you said dwarves favor war machines over making anything else. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2009 : 22:49:00
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Besides... wouldn't Dwarven version be about 4.5' to 5' tall?
Dwarves, probably moreso then most other races (except the Elves) consider themselves 'perfect' in form - they would build Warforged that looked like large, hulking Dwarves. I don't see them building 'perfect warriors' that had more human proportions.
Which leads me to think that a very good Eberron article is in the offing, on Warforged variants, based on the other races.
Lantan works, only because there are just as many human Gondsmen there, and the fact that (Tinker) Gnomes tend to think of things in terms of "Bigger is Better". In fact, a Gnomish Warforged is more likely to be Ogre-sized, then human-sized. I think, perhaps, they are mnaking up for something.
Another intersting way to go would be to use the Effigy Master, and create Warforged that were very 'Edward Scissorhands' in appearance. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2009 18:58:24 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 01:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Besides... wouldn't Dwarven version be about 4.5' to 5' tall?
not if they were made to be able to reach items off of the top shelf |
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Interesting article upcoming in Dragon #371
