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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 21:43:00
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Champions of Ruin really has given us a big connundrum to deal with. The Realms have never been a place where divine spellcasters can get spells from a "concept" even though in standard D&D this has been introduced. The Eldreth Veluuthra now, though, are listed as being able to get magic from "nature" as a concept, so its rangers and druids have spells.
This gives us a few problems. One of three options becomes apparent:
1. Concepts are now starting to be able to power divine magical abilities. This means other concepts besides Nature should follow. This would also start to cause some problems since Ao declared the symbiotic relationship that inhabitants of the Prime and the gods should have.
2. Nature somehow is a different concept than any other concept and can grant divine spells when all other concepts cannot do so. This would require some kind of explanation about the difference between nature as a concept and another concept, such as Justice or Balance.
3. Somehow a god is involved. Since we have several instances of evil groups that receive spells that don't realize where the spells actually come from, this one seems the most likely, but the description in Lords of Darkness seems to almost completely rule this out.
Any fellow scribes care to add their two coppers?
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 21:50:39
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I'd say that Malar is a possible divine sponsor for Eldreth Veluuthra, as the hunt theme fits and Malar would enjoy corrupting elves.
As for concepts powering divine spells, well, I hope not as deceptive deities are much more interesting. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:00:02
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I always thought of Silvanus as being sort of a personification of nature, so perhaps they are being granted spells from him.
Even though they do not pray to Silvanus specifically, revering and respecting nature as they do is in a way paying homage to him and I don't see why he wouldn't reward them for it with divine spells.
I really hope they don't start allowing divine casters without patrons in the realms! |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I really hope they don't start allowing divine casters without patrons in the realms!
I agree. Bickering gods are one of FR's defining features. Changing that is big mistake. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:05:09
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*Feels like already had this discussion* Though might have been elsewhere.
1. Core D&D rules allow concepts tp provide power so there might be a return to that.
2, Druids tend not to worry too much about dieties in FR, though are expected to have one.
3. It is almost certain some diety is providing divine magic unless WotC plans to break cannon. It has been clear that some dieties have masked themselves as another. It cerainly should not be hard to mask as a portfolio inself as not being a diety but as a power.
As for what comes from this event time will tell. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:06:16
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Well, concepts granting spells just doesn't seem to fit in with the whole Ao making the gods accountable to their followers and living up to their portfolio thing. If Ao is going to allow faith in the portfolio and not the god to grant spellcasting, then he has just cut the gods out of the equasion. That seems like it would be quite a major stir among the gods, so somehow I don't think this has happened.
Malar sounds like a good idea, but I wish we had a more sinister goal/plan going on. But considering how much Malar hates elves, perhaps Malar is hoping to spark a war between humans and elves that will wipe out the elves, or at least cause a lot of bloodshed.
I though of Talos as well, but I couldn't really figure out why Talos would get involved. Malar does seem to have a better reason to stick his claws into the equasion. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:09:29
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| Rumor has it that AO was fired, i.e. being no longer included in future realmslore. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Malar sounds like a good idea, but I wish we had a more sinister goal/plan going on.
Malar is a chaotic god, if I remember correctly. Corruption now, masterplan later is perfectly acceptable  |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Rumor has it that AO was fired, i.e. being no longer included in future realmslore.
Sounds wonderful. Where did you hear that rumour? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:16:14
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The other thing I thought was somewhat interesting was that in "Core" D&D you can worship concepts and get powers, and Deities and Demigods says that the force behind divine powers comes from beleif and all of that . . .
But then if you get the Living Greyhawk Gazateer, even though these are just the rules for the RPGA, you cannot make up a character that only has a concept and not a god.
I do remember back in 2e The Complete Priest's Handbook implied that you could worship a concept, and it sparked tons of debate back then. If there were a more structured explanation of how a concept becomes able to grant divine spells it would be great. Either this would mean that clerics really don't need to have any kind of beleif structure, and divine magic becomes more like "white magic" instead, or there should be some kind of structure that there have to be a large number of adhereants that beleive a certain way in order to "power" a concept with their collective good will.
In fact, with their established churches and old faiths and all, Eberron actually seems to do the latter ("to forgive your enemies their virture, that is the greater mircacle" -- Voltare). DragonLance tried to do the whole "power of the Heart" thing, but then we found out that Takhisis really did grant all of those abilities. So we really don't have a clear example of how concepts grant spells in any Prime, and the Realms have never really seemed to do this ever.
Hmm . . . Lolth just became a greater goddess . . . wouldn't it hork off Corellon for her to grant spells to elven racists? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:17:42
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| If I remember correctly, Ao was still mentioned in Champions of Ruin, which is pretty current as far as new Realmslore is concerned . . . its just that the day to day people of the Realms don't remember him . . . |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Rumor has it that AO was fired, i.e. being no longer included in future realmslore.
Sounds wonderful. Where did you hear that rumour?
A former employee of WotC that had some involvement in 3.x design. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 22:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hmm . . . Lolth just became a greater goddess . . . wouldn't it hork off Corellon for her to grant spells to elven racists?
It would serve him right, allowing a minor demon to become a greater goddess almost certainly should be his fault.
As to where WotC is going it is hard to know, EC beleved that 2nd NPCs were to be phased out in favor of 3rd NPCs, however we are not seeing much of that.
Is AO being phased out as part of design scheme? *shrugs* It might have been discussed as a concept, all we have right now is AO does not respond to the few that know and worship AO. The direction of this might change. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 01:59:34
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| I always thought that Corellon still grants spells to his worshipers in the Eldreth Veluuthra. If I remember correctly, this was in LoD and I had also brought this up several months ago... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 02:06:12
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| No, it says that they do not gain any spells from him, but they were convinced that once they proved themselves worthy that he would start to grant them spells. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 02:17:53
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Who said that it had to be a known god? It could be a dead god fragment like Moander, a new god (A member of the group who has gained godhood, perhaps Hatred of Humans) or a unknown god that was lost to history (Like Auppsener (Sp?) from LEoF)?
That leaves it open for development (Perhaps in a book called "Elves of Faerun"?)
Or when in doubt, Ask Ed... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 12 Jun 2005 02:19:37 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 02:23:51
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Heh . . . wouldn't it be interesting if an old member of House Starym had become a demi-god? Of course if that was the case I have a feeling that the Eldreth Veluuthra would openly know who their spells were coming from instead of thinking that its just "Nature" granting their spells.
But going along with whoever is granting them . . . wouldn't it be funny if they were also intentionally letting the elves think that they could directly draw power from nature to make them more arrogant and to get them to question the authority of the Seldarine itself?
Malkazid suddenly springs to mind in this case . . .
(Remember, just brainstorming here) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 03:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Heh . . . wouldn't it be interesting if an old member of House Starym had become a demi-god?
Or even more fun: the Starym moonblade. 
Mind you, I've no idea how a sword would attain godhood, but it seems a fun idea.  |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 03:53:25
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Well, Moander did use his power while imprisoned on the sword. Perhaps a fragment of his power and personality is locked in the blade like the Crown of Horns and Myrkul.
Still the whole idea is open for development of true gods. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 05:33:20
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| Since Foxhelm mentioned LEoF, that got me thinking. Didn't LEoF have a section on worshipping dead deities? Perhaps members of the Eldreth Veluuthra are worshipping dead deities, such as Moander. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 05:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Who said that it had to be a known god? It could be a dead god fragment like Moander, a new god (A member of the group who has gained godhood, perhaps Hatred of Humans) or a unknown god that was lost to history (Like Auppsener (Sp?) from LEoF)?
That leaves it open for development (Perhaps in a book called "Elves of Faerun"?)
Or when in doubt, Ask Ed...
If I was putting money on anyone Id say it would be Lolth moonlighting as Moander (See 2ed DhD)
1) Lolth doesnt like surface elves
2) Lolth likes corrupting Elves (See Evermeet novel)
3) While Lolth doesnt support druids "Moander" would being as his portfolios are part of nature
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 07:06:30
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| But Dargoth, Eldreth Veluuthra hates drow almost as much as they hate humans. While these are supremacist elves, they still hold much of their elven culture and customs. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 07:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But Dargoth, Eldreth Veluuthra hates drow almost as much as they hate humans. While these are supremacist elves, they still hold much of their elven culture and customs.
I wouldn't say that the Eldreth Veluuthra "hate" drow. They do after all tolerate the drow worshippers of Vhaeraun to a degree. And, given the predominate hatred for humans that both races have, there is certainly room for an eventual "pact" to grow between the two factions.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 07:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Since Foxhelm mentioned LEoF, that got me thinking. Didn't LEoF have a section on worshipping dead deities? Perhaps members of the Eldreth Veluuthra are worshipping dead deities, such as Moander.
That's a good point.
LEoF suggests that those worshippers with access to the 'Servant of the Fallen' feat can be granted spells from dead deities. The prerequisites for the feat aren't even that particular, so members of the EV could conceivably qualify for it.
Alternatively, the feat also allows those who have it to be granted spells from a near-power, or a fallen deity. Perhaps an archdruid of significant power and ability, as a member of the EV, has the skills necessary to grant a certain amoung of his or her own power in order to promote divine spellcasting among the EV.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 07:32:56
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And the Eldreth Veluuthra wouldn't know, under this theory, that Lolth is granting them their spells. They think that A) they are right and yet the elven gods aren't granting thems spells and B) they are now worshipping Nature directly and gaining spells. This would both boost their arrogance and undermine their faith in the Seldarine.
And Lords of Darkness mentioned that some of the Eldreth Veluuthra considered asking drow to join, but the overall group thought it would be wrong, which shows that the seed of the idea that "any elf is better than a human" is definately starting with some members. Still, they REALLY still don't like the Daemonfey, so they haven't completely compromised their "elven purity" idea yet.
The more I think of this the more Lolth or Malkzid makes sense. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 07:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But Dargoth, Eldreth Veluuthra hates drow almost as much as they hate humans. While these are supremacist elves, they still hold much of their elven culture and customs.
Who says Lolths going to tell them its her
She could do what Cyric did to Bane, Bhaals and Mykruls worshipers after the ToT and answer there prayers even though there not worshipping her by name ie like Tiamat and the Entropy cult |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 17:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But Dargoth, Eldreth Veluuthra hates drow almost as much as they hate humans. While these are supremacist elves, they still hold much of their elven culture and customs.
Who says Lolths going to tell them its her
She could do what Cyric did to Bane, Bhaals and Mykruls worshipers after the ToT and answer there prayers even though there not worshipping her by name ie like Tiamat and the Entropy cult
Besides, if she was answering their prayers under the guise of Moander, it wouldn't be a huge break from custom -- Moander has had elven followers before. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 02:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, if she was answering their prayers under the guise of Moander, it wouldn't be a huge break from custom -- Moander has had elven followers before.
For me, I would prefer that they just simply began worshipping Moander as he was.
I'm not really that enthusiastic with the idea of Lloth gaining more elven worshippers. It seems like a failing to just fall back on the Spider Queen and suggest that she is somehow responsible.
She has enough loyal followers as it is... .
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 03:31:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, if she was answering their prayers under the guise of Moander, it wouldn't be a huge break from custom -- Moander has had elven followers before.
For me, I would prefer that they just simply began worshipping Moander as he was.
I'm not really that enthusiastic with the idea of Lloth gaining more elven worshippers. It seems like a failing to just fall back on the Spider Queen and suggest that she is somehow responsible.
She has enough loyal followers as it is... .
Are you saying you'd prefer it that Moander was still around, or that they're using the Servant of the Fallen feat to worship him? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 13:00:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Well, Moander did use his power while imprisoned on the sword. Perhaps a fragment of his power and personality is locked in the blade like the Crown of Horns and Myrkul.
Still the whole idea is open for development of true gods.
Ah, pardon my ignorance. I recall that there is a connection between the Starym and Moander, though I cannot remember anything relating to the Great Dread God being imprisoned within the Starym moonblade? Is this information from Volo´s Guide to All Things Magical? (I am away from my source books right now) |
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-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Brainstorming the Eldreth Veluuthra's Divine Help
