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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 13:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But Dargoth, Eldreth Veluuthra hates drow almost as much as they hate humans. While these are supremacist elves, they still hold much of their elven culture and customs.
Who says Lolths going to tell them its her
She could do what Cyric did to Bane, Bhaals and Mykruls worshipers after the ToT and answer there prayers even though there not worshipping her by name ie like Tiamat and the Entropy cult
I agree. There has been a discussion on another thread about the limits of deific power under 3.X edition. In 2ed rules gods could masquerade as another power if they wanted to, and personally I will never use any "deity stat block" as a reference to what they can or cannot do. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 13:05:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, if she was answering their prayers under the guise of Moander, it wouldn't be a huge break from custom -- Moander has had elven followers before.
For me, I would prefer that they just simply began worshipping Moander as he was.
I'm not really that enthusiastic with the idea of Lloth gaining more elven worshippers. It seems like a failing to just fall back on the Spider Queen and suggest that she is somehow responsible.
She has enough loyal followers as it is...  .
Or perhaps Moander would appear in another (elven) aspect? Just an idea... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 18:00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Or perhaps Moander would appear in another (elven) aspect? Just an idea...
'Tis unlikely. He's dead. Finder took his powers and portfolio, Lolth took his name. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 12:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
'Tis unlikely. He's dead. Finder took his powers and portfolio, Lolth took his name.
And it's not like WOTC would bring a god back from the dead... |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 12:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Or perhaps Moander would appear in another (elven) aspect? Just an idea...
'Tis unlikely. He's dead. Finder took his powers and portfolio, Lolth took his name.
When you put it like that I almost feel sorry for the old pile of compost. Didn't he appear in a "muppet" TV-show too - Fraggle rock? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 16 Jun 2005 12:27:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 17:16:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Or perhaps Moander would appear in another (elven) aspect? Just an idea...
'Tis unlikely. He's dead. Finder took his powers and portfolio, Lolth took his name.
When you put it like that I almost feel sorry for the old pile of compost. Didn't he appear in a "muppet" TV-show too - Fraggle rock?
The Trash Heap has spoken! Nyeh!  |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 14:12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Or perhaps Moander would appear in another (elven) aspect? Just an idea...
'Tis unlikely. He's dead. Finder took his powers and portfolio, Lolth took his name.
That only applies to "canon" Realmslore, but I think that many of us scribes use plot twists and "older" material which may contradict a lot with what the Wizards of the (Sword) Coast may have published in their "official" tomes.
Even the canon lore doesnīt prevent, for example, Lolth masquerading as Moander is she decided to do so 
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 14:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
'Tis unlikely. He's dead. Finder took his powers and portfolio, Lolth took his name.
And it's not like WOTC would bring a god back from the dead...
Maybe they think that Ghaunadaur and Moander are too much alike  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 14:22:44
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| I think that Ghaunadaur would be an excellent divine patron for Eldreth Veluuthra |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 17:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Or perhaps Moander would appear in another (elven) aspect? Just an idea...
'Tis unlikely. He's dead. Finder took his powers and portfolio, Lolth took his name.
That only applies to "canon" Realmslore, but I think that many of us scribes use plot twists and "older" material which may contradict a lot with what the Wizards of the (Sword) Coast may have published in their "official" tomes.
Even the canon lore doesnīt prevent, for example, Lolth masquerading as Moander is she decided to do so
*blinks* Uh, canon lore specifically says Lolth is answering prayers in Moander's name. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 02:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I think that Ghaunadaur would be an excellent divine patron for Eldreth Veluuthra
I don't have any specific issue with that, although Ghaunadaur's unpredictable nature may make it difficult for the EV to finalise any type of "permanent" relationship with That Which Lurks.
The EV are direct and they need constant support for their "war" against humankind. They need a divine patron that can be "relied" upon to provide them with the power they require to execute their operations across the human-infested areas of the Realms.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:13:16
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But, going from the information presented in Champions of Ruin, the Eldreth Veluuthra's beleive that they are receiving their powers directly from nature. While I am really trying to wrack my brain to make sure in my own campagin I can reconcile this with a deity actually secretly giving them spells, the Eldreth Veluuthra now think that they are in direct communion with nature.
I kinda like that idea, becuase whoever the god is, they are really feeding the egos of the Eldreth Veluuthra, because now they can start to think that they are better than other elves, and that they don't NEED the Seldarine any more.
Thats why I still lean toward Malkzid or Lolth, although Malkzid even being a powerful fiend would have a hard time sparing the extra power to "give away" spells with no worship in return.
A newly minted Greater Goddess on the other hand.
Dispite that, Ghaunadaur might be a god that would enjoy corrupting the elves for its own sake, and Malar might as well, though the overall ploy strikes me as too subtle for the Lord of Beasts. Moander would be right out since he doesn't exist except as a facet of Lolth now, and there is not point in Lolth pretending to be Moander in order to grant spells in secret in the guise of the concept of Nature.
Of course, all of this is trying to work in the framework of the "official" campaign. In your own campaigns the Eldreth Veluuthra may still not have any divine spells yet.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 06:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Moander would be right out since he doesn't exist except as a facet of Lolth now, and there is not point in Lolth pretending to be Moander in order to grant spells in secret in the guise of the concept of Nature.
Sure there's a point. If you're an elf whose all into elven superiority, who is the better deity to worship? One who betrayed your race, or one who, though primarily a human deity, has been worshipped by some of your people before and who helped one of the founders of the Eldreth Veluuthra? Sure, it's really the same deity, but no one worshipping Moander knows that... They think they're still worshipping the big ugly green guy.
Either way, Lolth gets more followers. And you know she would delight in claiming some of Corellon's children... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 06:29:40
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I guess the point I was getting at is that the Eldreth Veluuthra don't think that there IS any deity involved. So Lolth granting spells to them as Moander is like putting on a disguise when you are already invisible.
This is not to say that as Moander she doesn't seek other elven followers to corrupt, just that specifically the Eldreth Veluuthra think that their is not deity involved in their aquisition of divine spells and abilities. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 07:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Either way, Lolth gets more followers. And you know she would delight in claiming some of Corellon's children...
And that's also why, as I stated earlier, I still have a problem with this. It seems too convenient to just have the divine component of the EV fall back on Lolth worship.
Using the 'Servant of the Fallen' feat at least creates the impression that something else is responsible for the source of divine power being used among the Eldreth Veluuthra -- whether it truly is Moander, or a sliver of his former self that has not been wholly subsumed by Lolth.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 13:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Even the canon lore doesnīt prevent, for example, Lolth masquerading as Moander is she decided to do so
*blinks* Uh, canon lore specifically says Lolth is answering prayers in Moander's name.
Yes, I believe Lolth's write up in Demihuman Deities is where this information was established. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 18 Jun 2005 23:22:12 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 15:59:15
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| Maybe the Eldreth Veluuthra will figure in The Last Mythal. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 22:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Maybe the Eldreth Veluuthra will figure in The Last Mythal.
Any ideas on how you might see them becoming involved? |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 22:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Maybe the Eldreth Veluuthra will figure in The Last Mythal.
Any ideas on how you might see them becoming involved?
Well, this is just pure speculation on my part, but the eldreth veluuthra haven`t been covered in any novel so far, and now with the deamonfey moving in on myth drannor, like hell the eldreth veluuthra will just sit back and watch. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 02:50:04
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
and now with the deamonfey moving in on myth drannor, like hell the eldreth veluuthra will just sit back and watch.
Do they really have the power to stand against the daemonfey? |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 10:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
and now with the deamonfey moving in on myth drannor, like hell the eldreth veluuthra will just sit back and watch.
Do they really have the power to stand against the daemonfey?
They would probably cook up something. Doesn`t have to be grand. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 10:57:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[br
*blinks* Uh, canon lore specifically says Lolth is answering prayers in Moander's name.
Aye, Faiths & Avatars says so, but I donīt have Faiths & Pantheons at hand right now, so I cannot confirm how it works in 3e/3.5e. I think Lolth doesnīt have the required "Salient Divine Abilities" to do that anymore, except perhaps through her wizards spells |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 11:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't have any specific issue with that, although Ghaunadaur's unpredictable nature may make it difficult for the EV to finalise any type of "permanent" relationship with That Which Lurks.
The EV are direct and they need constant support for their "war" against humankind. They need a divine patron that can be "relied" upon to provide them with the power they require to execute their operations across the human-infested areas of the Realms.
Maybe they would try to establish a short term relationship with Ghaunadaur, until they have found a 'proper' divine patron? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 12:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
[quote]Originally posted by The Sage
I don't have any specific issue with that, although Ghaunadaur's unpredictable nature may make it difficult for the EV to finalise any type of "permanent" relationship with That Which Lurks.
The EV are direct and they need constant support for their "war" against humankind. They need a divine patron that can be "relied" upon to provide them with the power they require to execute their operations across the human-infested areas of the Realms.
I mean that they might be desperate enough to settle with That Which Lurks for now. Has anyone thought about Gargauth? He might be an alluring possibility, too. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 13:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I guess the point I was getting at is that the Eldreth Veluuthra don't think that there IS any deity involved. So Lolth granting spells to them as Moander is like putting on a disguise when you are already invisible.
This is not to say that as Moander she doesn't seek other elven followers to corrupt, just that specifically the Eldreth Veluuthra think that their is not deity involved in their aquisition of divine spells and abilities.
I really hate that idea about worshipping "Concepts" (Good/Evil/Nature/etc) which has been presented in 3e books. Personally I will never allow it to any characters or NPCs in my campaigns. Since it really is a matter of perspective (and hubris) on part of the EV members, they may think that they are "one with the Nature", but in reality they are being sponsored by one of the gods.
Whatever you think the truth behind this is in your campaigns, my fellow scribes, I feel that even if they were worshipping a concept, several of the deities would be claiming responsibility for their spells and trying to corrupt them to worhipping them.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 14:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Maybe they would try to establish a short term relationship with Ghaunadaur, until they have found a 'proper' divine patron?
I suppose that's a possibility, but Ghaunadaur may look unkindly upon those who consider him to be just a "temporary" divine patron ...
quote:
Has anyone thought about Gargauth? He might be an alluring possibility, too.
Gargauth is definitely an intriguing possibility. What better way is there for an outcast organisation to seek divine solace than in the "The Outcast" himself? Of course, Gargauth's "loner" nature could make seeking his assistance difficult. Then again, Gargauth may see the supporting the EV as the first step in rebuilding his power base on Toril and creating new faithful among the elves of the EV.
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Edited by - The Sage on 20 Jun 2005 14:24:06 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 15:02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I suppose that's a possibility, but Ghaunadaur may look unkindly upon those who consider him to be just a "temporary" divine patron ...
Of course, they wouldn't tell him/it about it
[quote]What better way is there for an outcast organisation to seek divine solace than in the "The Outcast" himself? Of course, Gargauth's "loner" nature could make seeking his assistance difficult. Then again, Gargauth may see the supporting the EV as the first step in rebuilding his power base on Toril and creating new faithful among the elves of the EV.
I agree. Gargauth would certainly see a lot of possibilities in gaining (and corrupting) elven worshippers. Perhaps Gargauth would also be a suitable choice for fey'ri clerics? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 17:42:54
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| Hmm... all this talk of fey'ri got me wondering: who do the daemonfey have as a patron deity? I know they have the backings of a fallen solar like Malkizid and several powerful demons, but do they have any divine aid at all? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2005 : 02:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hmm... all this talk of fey'ri got me wondering: who do the daemonfey have as a patron deity? I know they have the backings of a fallen solar like Malkizid and several powerful demons, but do they have any divine aid at all?
I've thought about this somewhat. I've come to a few conclusions. An intriguing possibility is that presented by the Elder Elemental God. He is desparate to reclaim his position in the celestial hierarchy and seeks to one day escape his demiplanar prison. His worship is already popular among evil elves, fiends, and other types of critters so it is perhaps likely that at some point, the demons or primordial fey'ri had some interaction with those who remain faithful to him.
The fey'ri themselves balance the elemental nature of the elves with the pure chaotic nature of the demons, so there is already an aspect of the elements and chaos in their make-up... all of which works to make the perfect blend for servitors of an chaotic creator-like god who has control of the elements.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2005 : 05:23:33
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| Sage, what about Lolth? After all, both of them hate the Seldarine and the surface elves for what they have done. I could see the daemonfey become the Spider Queen's worshippers in the surface. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Brainstorming the Eldreth Veluuthra's Divine Help
