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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2008 : 17:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Elven Avenger
In elven society sometimes there are some cases of members from some houses that have evil alignment. In Myth Drannor this was even more easy to see in those noble houses that did'nt wanted the Coronal to open the city to non-elves. Would you see a paladin fit in that setting? A character with detect/smite evil ability commited to act or at least investigate any suspicious member from some houses just because of their alignment. That sounds strange.
Doesn't that kind of imply that the elves of that city weren't allowed to "be evil"? "Being evil" (as in, having an evil alignment) is one thing, actually doing evil is quite another. From what I understood, the coronal didn't require everyone to agree with him all the time (not that disagreeing with him made a person "evil", for that manner). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Dec 2008 17:16:47 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2009 : 23:12:38
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I cannot specifically remember which of the Realms designers stated this (I am thinking Richard Baker on his "Ask Richard Baker" thread, but don't quote me on that), but he specifically did say the elven gods can have Lawful Good paladin champions of their faith no different than the way Sune has her own order of Paladins even though she is CG.
Obviously, some of the elven deities are more liable to have a paladin order of elves than others (Corellon Larethian especially) while others don't (sort of like how Savras doesn't have paladins despite being LN...or does he?).
In any civilized society, despite the fact the majority of that society is chaotic in alignment, you need some of those willing to devote themselves to a Lawful state of being in order to keep even a little order among the chaos. The USA is sort of like that, a principle devoted to individuality and freedom (Chaotic principle), but we use the government and authority to make sure that freedom applies to everyone equally and enforce those principles (the Lawful principle).
Well, essentially that balances out to a Neutral nation, but you get what I mean. Even among free-spirited elves, there're elves that devote themselves to a disciplined hierarchy of the way things are in the universe and they strive to use those laws to protect the freedom of the elves.
I don't think I am wording myself right, but it's the best I can do.
Personally, I allow elven LG paladins but only in Corellon's church for now. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 15:24:28
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| By all means, LG champions and knights of Corellon and other elven deities is perfectly plausible and something I'd readily allow in my game. However, I just don't feel they should be called paladins, or necessarily even have all the abilities of the class. In my opinion, paladin should be treated as primarly a human class and institution (as in 2e); let the other races have their unique champions. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2009 : 15:42:02
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
In my opinion, paladin should be treated as primarly a human class and institution (as in 2e); let the other races have their unique champions.
I tend to agree, especially since most races in 2E allowed fighter-cleric combos. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 18:58:56
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| I could see a Sun Elf paladin of Lathander. They seem like a goood fit, what with Lathander's focus (in his lawful aspect) on nobility and warring against evil and darkness. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 19:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character.
??? Then what's the point of even including it?
Outside of bad fiction, no one should be shown doing something because "it's evil" or "it's good". But that doesn't mean that evil characters won't try to attain their goals by evil means, or that a lawful one will follow some sort of law, whether it be religious, secular, or moral law, even if the entire society around is all hell let out for noon (go and read about the life of Confucious for more on that).
If you don't wish to use alignment, then fine, okay and all that. But it seems odd to just ignore it except for when it lets you know who can can drop a Holy Smite on. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2009 : 23:42:54
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| If a game is going to include the concept of alignment (and it certainly doesn't have to), then I agree that the alignment one picks for a character should have at least some relevance to that character's general behavior. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 00:35:03
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| Alignment should influence behavior... but not dominate it. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 07:02:01
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| My guess is that Arion was trying to say that there should be some variety in the personalities of characters of each alignment. Not every lawful good character should be the stereotypical paladin, and not every lawful evil character should be like a follower of Bane. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2009 : 07:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character.
??? Then what's the point of even including it?
Outside of bad fiction, no one should be shown doing something because "it's evil" or "it's good". But that doesn't mean that evil characters won't try to attain their goals by evil means, or that a lawful one will follow some sort of law, whether it be religious, secular, or moral law, even if the entire society around is all hell let out for noon (go and read about the life of Confucious for more on that).
If you don't wish to use alignment, then fine, okay and all that. But it seems odd to just ignore it except for when it lets you know who can can drop a Holy Smite on.
Maybe another way to explain it is that alignment shouldn't dictate what kind of personality you have, just what actions you do that apply to law or morality. A chaotic character shouldn't necessarily have to have a 'chaotic' personality, a neutral character can be just as fiery as anyone else, etc. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 03:35:37
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I don't believe there is a limit to the number of ways one could describe the character and personality of a person of a particular alignment. A character could be LG with a any number of uniquely individualized motives, goals, and ethical concerns. Alignment hems the choices in somewhat, but it doesn't determine them such that one can always say what a person of a given alignment ought to do in a given situation.
Given the way the rules use alignment, it's a necessary part of the character's description but it isn't remotely sufficient.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 16:44:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
My guess is that Arion was trying to say that there should be some variety in the personalities of characters of each alignment. Not every lawful good character should be the stereotypical paladin, and not every lawful evil character should be like a follower of Bane.
That I do agree with. I try to fall somehwere between the "alignment means nothing, even if you use it" and "alignment means everything" arguments. Good guys can have unpleasant characteristics, and evil ones can haev some positive traits. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 16:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character.
??? Then what's the point of even including it?
Outside of bad fiction, no one should be shown doing something because "it's evil" or "it's good". But that doesn't mean that evil characters won't try to attain their goals by evil means, or that a lawful one will follow some sort of law, whether it be religious, secular, or moral law, even if the entire society around is all hell let out for noon (go and read about the life of Confucious for more on that).
If you don't wish to use alignment, then fine, okay and all that. But it seems odd to just ignore it except for when it lets you know who can can drop a Holy Smite on.
Maybe another way to explain it is that alignment shouldn't dictate what kind of personality you have, just what actions you do that apply to law or morality. A chaotic character shouldn't necessarily have to have a 'chaotic' personality, a neutral character can be just as fiery as anyone else, etc.
Okay, that I agree with completely. (The "alignment doesn't control personality" statement.) I think we've all seen examples of "Lawful Stupid/Chaotic Stupid", haven't we? |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2009 : 21:24:17
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| That's "Lawful Stupid" and "Chaotic Selfish". |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2009 : 01:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
My guess is that Arion was trying to say that there should be some variety in the personalities of characters of each alignment. Not every lawful good character should be the stereotypical paladin, and not every lawful evil character should be like a follower of Bane.
I agree with that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sun elves, the RoF, and Paladins
