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Iskadrow
Acolyte
Germany
5 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 11:37:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost King
I can't remember the female elf's name in Neverwinter Nights story in the first set released that served Tyr, but that would be an example I would see of an elf being a paladin.
Oh, Aribeth was a strange beast, but yes, adhering to the faith of a human god which allows for paladins would surely be the easiest way for an elf to erm ... become a paladin. If one could choose to be one, which is something I doubt. In the end you are chosen by your (or a?) god, not the other way around.
Mystra would perhaps be most in style, since a number of elves are inclined to worship her as a mother of magic, plus Midnight sponsors her own order of paladins - the Order of the Mystic Flame, if I'm not mistaken. |
"You speak blasphemy, sir." - "Yes. Fluently." |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 12:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by see
As I said, no alignment is given for Khalreshaar. The only direction we have for details of Khalreshaar is where Demihuman Deities says, "See the entry for Mielikki in Faiths & Avatars for more information about Khalreshaar." Mielikki's entry gives her alignment as NG. No other alignment is given for Khalreshaar or for any other aspect of Mielikki in any other lore source that I can find.
-Yes, I understand this, but this does not change what I said. Aspects of deities don't necessarily have to share the same alignment as the "parent deity" that it spawns from. As such, labeling Khalreshaar NG because Mielikki is NG is not necessarily correct. It's isn't necessarily wrong, either. We just don't know. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 17:49:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think for elves the bladesinger already fills that niche.
I'd say the fighter/mage is the elven equivalent of the human paladin and ranger. I wouldn't raise Colin McComb's kit to a major role in Realmslore. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 18:59:43
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Historically, paladins served the king, and swore an oath of fealty to him. They also swore to uphold a code of chivalry that expressed the ideals of the church. That is why they are considered the archetype of the LG alignment. Other alignments should certainly have their archetypes as well, but calling them paladins is an abuse of language.
Monks are another archetype, an expression of lawfulness in the pursuit of physical and mental discipline. Yet, I never see arguments about how chaotic neutral monks should be allowed.
Why do elves have to have pointed ears and slanty eyes? Why can't they have beagle heads and floppy ears?
In the end, I'm not very interested in arguments about alignments though. The alignments are too vague and ill-defined to serve as a good roleplaying guide. It's much better to think in specific terms about what your character believes in, and follow that. Does he believe in Law? Which laws? Is he mindlessly obedient to the laws of the land, or does he believe that the laws should be just. Does he respect the laws of other lands, or does he believe that the laws of his country are superior? Etc. Relying solely on alignments just produces non sequiturs like characters who rigidly adhere to their commitment to behaving chaotically, or characters whose beliefs change every time they enter a new jurisdiction.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 19:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Monks are another archetype, an expression of lawfulness in the pursuit of physical and mental discipline. Yet, I never see arguments about how chaotic neutral monks should be allowed.
To be fair, every now and then I come across someone arguing that monks shouldn't have to be lawful. I'm neutral on the subject, I'm just pointing out that other classes do get "picked on". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 19:17:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Yet, I never see arguments about how chaotic neutral monks should be allowed.
-They shouldn't.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Why do elves have to have pointed ears and slanty eyes? Why can't they have beagle heads and floppy ears?
-Because, then, they wouldn't be Elves. And, they'd be evil, too. Beagles are evil. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 23:07:03
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| Snoopy is a beagle. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 23:16:01
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Since you went way OT there - Have any of you heard the argument that Snoopy was Charles Schultz's analogy of God?
As for CN monks, I have one question - How? I don't even see that as possible.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 23:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
Since you went way OT there - Have any of you heard the argument that Snoopy was Charles Schultz's analogy of God?
-No. Beagles are the Devil's work, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
As for CN monks, I have one question - How? I don't even see that as possible.
-The basic idea is that certain martial art styles, like, say, the "Drunken Master" style, are inherently chaotic, because they do not rely on strict adherence to preset definitions of what the style is.
-I, personally, vehemently disagree, as I disagree with the notion of chaos, period. There is no such thing as 'Chaos'. What we consider to be 'Chaos' is simply some sort of law acting in accordance to what it can and can not do, that we, Humans, have trouble assigning "strict" guidelines. Take the aforementioned "Drunken Master" style, for example. The martial art is not chaotic, but, rather, it is lawful in an abstract way, that is hard for us, Humans, to assign guidelines and such. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 23:52:25
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I kind of see what you're saying about chaos. I'm not even sure that people use the word correctly. Usually we think of chaos as being unpredictable or disorderly, but it isn't. I think we just don't always know what we're looking at  . |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 23:54:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I kind of see what you're saying about chaos. I'm not even sure that people use the word correctly. Usually we think of chaos as being unpredictable or disorderly, but it isn't. I think we just don't always know what we're looking at .
-Exactly. That's my take on it: Rules for 'Chaos' exist and govern what 'Chaos' does, but just because they are so abstract, or minute, or whatever else that we don't understand them doesn't mean that they don't exist. Subatomic particles existed and functioned long before they were discovered.
-The Universe is an orderly, lawful place.  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 01:33:53
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Granted, chaos is just what we call it when we cannot discern the order in things. I'm not sure what that gets us, though, as far as the validity of the concept. It's especially applicable to the behavior of humans, who don't operate according to mechanistic laws and don't always even know the motives for their own actions. Anyone who has children can tell you that chaos is very real.
I only object to it as a guideline for roleplaying, because I think it's too vague to be of any use, and it doesn't describe a genuine human motivation. A character might want to live free, or be in a primitive state of anarchy, but he would never want to be in a state of complete, metaphysical chaos.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 04:15:12
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| I think chaos is used in a more social sense in D&D. Chaotic characters are not truly unpredictable, they simply stand for personal freedom taken to a higher degree than lawful or neutral characters. They don't follow societal rules, but they follow otherwise typical human (or demihuman) nature. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 06:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I think chaos is used in a more social sense in D&D. Chaotic characters are not truly unpredictable, they simply stand for personal freedom taken to a higher degree than lawful or neutral characters. They don't follow societal rules, but they follow otherwise typical human (or demihuman) nature.
And that's pretty much my way of looking at it. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 07:29:09
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That's the best way to interpret it, but it doesn't completely square with having gods who elevate chaos to a cosmic force that must be worshipped. The alignments are tied into the structure of the multiverse in a way that suggests far more than just notions about societal rules. :)
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 07:59:39
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One of the few things I like about 4th Edition, is the new alignments. It pretty much just sums it up into a few catagories. You're either LG, G, Unaligned, E, or CE. I always thought neutral characters, especially "true" neutral, all acted fairly the same to one another. If you were neutral the word alone implies impartiality. NG and CG characters always appeared the same to me, except the definition of "Benefactor" and "Free-spirit" that pretty much are inter-changable. And the only difference between a LE and NE character was one was a mastermind type character, and the other was just extremely selfish. Not really a whole lot of difference.
At least with the update if you play a good, unaligned, or evil character you can have as much room as you want to choose how your character acts. Leaving the only true opposing alignments still in that actually were different from their counterparts they share in alignment. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 12:56:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
That's the best way to interpret it, but it doesn't completely square with having gods who elevate chaos to a cosmic force that must be worshipped. The alignments are tied into the structure of the multiverse in a way that suggests far more than just notions about societal rules. :)
-Sure. In D&D, things like 'Good', 'Evil', 'Law' and 'Chaos' are more than just theoretical concepts. They're tangible things, with planes and planar creatures being the physical embodiments of such forces. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 19:05:53
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| I like tangible things with physical embodiments, even if only in a fantasy RPG setting. It really helps define that whole "right/wrong" thing without making arbitrary and possibly judgement calls. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 20:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I think chaos is used in a more social sense in D&D. Chaotic characters are not truly unpredictable, they simply stand for personal freedom taken to a higher degree than lawful or neutral characters. They don't follow societal rules, but they follow otherwise typical human (or demihuman) nature.
And that's pretty much my way of looking at it.
Ditto. I don't think alignment should ever influence personality or character. It's just a broad term for a character's opinions on society at large.
Oh...and it helps with things like that pesky magic circle versus evil thing... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 03:17:47
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| My girlfriend is a Juban (Cuban Jew). Does that mean that as a Jubu, you're a Jewish Buddhist? :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 03:31:21
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-Juban. Heh. I am Jewish, and I have taken a very deep interest in Tibetan Buddhism, yes.
-I don't recall mentioning it, or seeing it in the thread: The Champion of Corellon (from Races of the Wild) is probably the best "Elven Paladin". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 05:08:11
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Pumps his fist* Called it! :D
Happy Chanukkah and jai guru dev! |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2008 : 09:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Juban. Heh. I am Jewish, and I have taken a very deep interest in Tibetan Buddhism, yes.
-I don't recall mentioning it, or seeing it in the thread: The Champion of Corellon (from Races of the Wild) is probably the best "Elven Paladin".
yeppers that it is.
of course one of the elven deities listed in that book is LN which allows for paladins too....
but its not Realmslore on her though.. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Elven Avenger
Acolyte
Brazil
27 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 14:22:30
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In elven society sometimes there are some cases of members from some houses that have evil alignment. In Myth Drannor this was even more easy to see in those noble houses that did'nt wanted the Coronal to open the city to non-elves. Would you see a paladin fit in that setting? A character with detect/smite evil ability commited to act or at least investigate any suspicious member from some houses just because of their alignment. That sounds strange.
I think the bladesingers are still the best option to make an elven act like a paladin or a champion inside elven society and culture. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2008 : 17:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Elven Avenger
In elven society sometimes there are some cases of members from some houses that have evil alignment. In Myth Drannor this was even more easy to see in those noble houses that did'nt wanted the Coronal to open the city to non-elves. Would you see a paladin fit in that setting? A character with detect/smite evil ability commited to act or at least investigate any suspicious member from some houses just because of their alignment. That sounds strange.
-Not, really, no. The situation exists for every race that exists in the setting. The species, in general, maybe be a specific alignment, but there is always going to be individual variation. Thus resulting in LE Sun Elves, LG Drow, and so on. That certain Elves in Myth Drannor did not want Coronal Eltargrim to open up the city to N'Tel'Quessir is not evil. To go about summoning evil Dragon creatures to stop him, or to attempt assassinating him or his close confidants, that is evil. But, no, to not want him to do it is not evil. I support such a notion, in fact. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Elven Avenger
Acolyte
Brazil
27 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2008 : 13:45:04
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| Dont consider this a flood, just to make sure I liked your point. :) |
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Sun elves, the RoF, and Paladins
