| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Iskadrow
Acolyte
Germany
5 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 16:21:18
|
"Sun elves are also the foremost clerics and paladins among the elven races."
This bit of information from the Races of Faerūn supplement is causing me some headaches. Is the paladin a placeholder here (standing in for paladin-like classes and class combinations), or does the book really mean what it says? Are there sun elven paladins of the Seldarine? Which of these chaotic gods would grant a devoted follower of lawful alignment his divine grace?
|
"You speak blasphemy, sir." - "Yes. Fluently." |
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 16:25:53
|
-Elves are Chaotic. Paladins are lawful. Traditionally, there are no such things as Elven Paladins, because of this. Of course, being that, in the end, it's up to the players and DM, it's ultimately up to them.
-Of the members of the Seldarine, I feel that Corellon Larethian and possibly Labelas Enoreth are the only deities that might have a Paladin wing of their church. Possibly Hanali Celanil, going on the basis that Sune has a Paladin following, and (as per 4e lore) Sune and Hanali Celanil are one and the same.
-For more information about Sun Elves, the Seldarine, and all other things Elven, see Elves of Faerūn. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 21 Dec 2008 16:26:44 |
 |
|
|
Iskadrow
Acolyte
Germany
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 16:40:25
|
| Aye, Corellon and especially Labelas would've been my choices too - if forced to pick an elven god for an elven paladin ;). The Elves of Faerūn you mentioned is identical with the Elven Netbook, I assume? |
"You speak blasphemy, sir." - "Yes. Fluently." |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 17:03:48
|
It means what it says, but it's a rules artefact based on the 3E 'all races can be all classes' dogma rather than straight Realmslore. The paladin is a human institution, not an elven one.
One of the many problems with allowing rules to distort the presentation of lore is that it leaves us with these burdens of translating back out of rulesets and their thinking long after they go out of print and out of memory for the newest players... |
Edited by - Faraer on 21 Dec 2008 17:11:41 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 17:47:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Iskadrow
Aye, Corellon and especially Labelas would've been my choices too - if forced to pick an elven god for an elven paladin ;). The Elves of Faerūn you mentioned is identical with the Elven Netbook, I assume?
-Yes. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 17:52:25
|
| Of course, if you're like me, you also like paladins of all the extremes (Unearthed Arcana). My main prerequisite for a Paladin is simply a strong commitment to his belief, which comes down to a patron deity and a non-neutral alignment. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Iskadrow
Acolyte
Germany
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 19:07:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
It means what it says, but it's a rules artefact based on the 3E 'all races can be all classes' dogma rather than straight Realmslore.[...]
Shame on me, could have thought of that myself. 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Of course, if you're like me, you also like paladins of all the extremes. My main prerequisite for a Paladin is simply a strong commitment to his belief, which comes down to a patron deity and a non-neutral alignment.
Ah, well - I wouldn't call a paladin of CG alignment paladin (in fact I shun the term completely, at least in game) but yeah, you are right with me. Something in the spirit of the paladin should be open to all extreme alignments, although one could argue that this is already the case with the help of prestige-classes like the divine champion, divine liberator, blackguard and whatnot. But since such alternatives cannot be meant in the wording of the RoF I posted the question above, to the understandable displeasure of Faraer ^.- |
"You speak blasphemy, sir." - "Yes. Fluently." |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 20:36:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Of course, if you're like me, you also like paladins of all the extremes (Unearthed Arcana). My main prerequisite for a Paladin is simply a strong commitment to his belief, which comes down to a patron deity and a non-neutral alignment.
I would agree, the lawful requirement (or pretty much any alignment requirement for that matter) is one I've often tossed. Considering how many gods toss lightning around and revel in chaos, I think it's a little shortsighted to say only a character with a lawful alignment can pick up a sword and swear allegiance to a series of religious principals that she can draw her powers from.
Plus, it's easier and more fun to let a PC pick their race, class, and alignment. That's kind of the fun of the game.
If you know the rules, understand why they're there, and have enough savvy to improve em or break em, I say good on ya.  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 21:32:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Of course, if you're like me, you also like paladins of all the extremes (Unearthed Arcana). My main prerequisite for a Paladin is simply a strong commitment to his belief, which comes down to a patron deity and a non-neutral alignment.
I would agree, the lawful requirement (or pretty much any alignment requirement for that matter) is one I've often tossed. Considering how many gods toss lightning around and revel in chaos, I think it's a little shortsighted to say only a character with a lawful alignment can pick up a sword and swear allegiance to a series of religious principals that she can draw her powers from.
I don't have a problem with characters of other alignments picking up a sword, swearing an allegiance to a series of religious principals, and gaining power from that... I just have a problem with any classes of that nature other than lawful good being called paladins. Call them crusaders, or divine champions, or whatever else there is, but they aren't paladins.
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Plus, it's easier and more fun to let a PC pick their race, class, and alignment. That's kind of the fun of the game.
If you know the rules, understand why they're there, and have enough savvy to improve em or break em, I say good on ya.
Its easier, sure... but the whole point of paladins is that the whole lawful good alignment coupled with the paladin code is supposed to be more difficult to adhere to and thus you get something special from it. If you throw that around so that anyone can have it just because its a choice, then "paladin" becomes "fighter with holy powers."
|
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 21:39:40
|
hahaha
I remember reading that in rof.
I also remember people saying to avoid the book as they said devs said it was garbage or something.
the way I see it, is that a house rule you could have any deity that grants the protection domain can have paladins.
thats me though |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 21:54:18
|
| It's safe to say that the paladin class is one for advanced players |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 22:10:33
|
| I do, however, favor the idea of elven paladins through Hanali Celanil with the 4e concept of her and Sune being one in the same... even though I pretty much reject everything else about 4th edition Realms. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 22:19:52
|
| I think I have to agree with Nerfed - the whole point of the paladin is that's it's something difficult to obtain and even more difficult to maintain. Paladin's should be LG or they should be called something else. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
|
|
|
|
Iskadrow
Acolyte
Germany
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 22:41:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I do, however, favor the idea of elven paladins through Hanali Celanil with the 4e concept of her and Sune being one in the same... even though I pretty much reject everything else about 4th edition Realms.
Hrm. I see the sense in merging very similar deities into one entity which is known here by this name and there by that one, but gods from different pantheons? Those will remain distinct in my campaign, should I ever DM in the 4th Edition Realms. |
"You speak blasphemy, sir." - "Yes. Fluently." |
Edited by - Iskadrow on 21 Dec 2008 22:42:51 |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 23:27:00
|
| Well, the way they were merged wasn't as simple as saying they were the same god... rather Hanali was killed and Sune stepped in to fill the role. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 00:18:17
|
I have to disagree, Nerfed (I won't do the quotes because that would take up several pages ).
I think adhering to a cause is much more interesting (and challenging) than adhering to an alignment. After all, every PC regardless of class is expected to adhere to their alignment with only the occassional lapse. Otherwise...erm...they don't have and alignment.
What separates the paladin in all of my games is the strict, unshakeable code they must carry - not a single lapse allowed. If the rogue gives back the copper he took, no harm done. If the barbarian decides to forgive her enemy rather than crush them beneath her boot, no problem. But if the chaotic paladin is told by their tenets to 'Shed the Blood of All Who Betray You', and she fails to do so, there are massive penalties, both in roleplay and in-game.
That's what makes the paladin unique, not her alignment. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 01:01:44
|
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how a chaotic anything can be expected to adhere to any strict code - isn't that part of being chaotic? I can see a cause, a general cause, such as promoting good, but nothing specific.
I also cannot make myself associate paladins with anything other than LG. Paladins must swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with both lawfulness and goodness. The paladin is defined by the "compassion to pursue good, will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil."
IMO, I don't see how a tenet such as "Shed the Blood of All Who Betray You" could even come up with the Paladin nor how he could follow it.
Half the fun of having a paladin is seeing the RP when conflicts arise between good and law.
I see no reason why some other class/ alignment couldn't follow a strict code, but it would be another class and NOT a paladin. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 01:14:57
|
| That's why I like the Unearthed Arcana variants. By their definition, the traditional paladin is a Paladin of Honor, while the CG is a Paladin of Freedom (ultimate freedom for the betterment of all), the LE is Paladin of Tyranny and the CE is a Paladin of Slaughter. Granted, other titles could be thought up, but they all relate to the basic abilities of a paladin. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 01:29:55
|
| Um... I'll just quote your sig Ashe- "Not in my realms." |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
|
|
|
|
see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 03:44:39
|
There is, in fact, a NG member of the Seldarine in FR, at least in 2nd edition lore Khalreshaar. Elves of Evermeet mentions her, but doesn't give an alignment. Demihuman Deities then establishes her as being an elven alias of Mielikki . . . and Mielikki is neutral good.
So, if you want to stick to the canon FR elven pantheon alone and to the 3rd edition one-step rule, there's exactly one choice. |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 04:00:11
|
I can't remember the name right now, but in Dragon Magazine during 2nd edition they had two articles on the extended Seldarine, and one of the articles included a NG elven god of swordsmanship and bladesingers, which also occurred to be as a decent elven paladin deity, but I cannot remember the deities name at the moment.
Edit: The name of the deity is Tethrin Veralde.
|
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 22 Dec 2008 04:08:09 |
|
|
|
see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 04:19:44
|
Dragon #236. Tethrin Veraldé (The Shining One), NG, Bladesingers, swordsmanship.
There are several other non-canon elven deities from Dragon #236.
Araleth Letheranil (The Prince of Stars), CG, Light, starlight, twilight
Kirith Sotheril (The Magess), NG, Divination magic, enchantment magic
Melira Taralen (The Songstress), CG, Half-elven bards, elven minstrels, songwriting
Naralis Analor (The Healer), NG, Healing, the easing of pain, death
Rellavar Danuvien (The Frost King), NG, Frost Sprites, protection from the elements
Tarsellis Meunniduin (Lord of Mountains), CN, Mountains, rivers, snow elves, wilderness
|
Edited by - see on 22 Dec 2008 04:21:48 |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 04:24:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how a chaotic anything can be expected to adhere to any strict code - isn't that part of being chaotic? I can see a cause, a general cause, such as promoting good, but nothing specific.
I also cannot make myself associate paladins with anything other than LG. Paladins must swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with both lawfulness and goodness. The paladin is defined by the "compassion to pursue good, will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil."
IMO, I don't see how a tenet such as "Shed the Blood of All Who Betray You" could even come up with the Paladin nor how he could follow it.
Half the fun of having a paladin is seeing the RP when conflicts arise between good and law.
I see no reason why some other class/ alignment couldn't follow a strict code, but it would be another class and NOT a paladin.
Pfft...rules, schmooles. That's the beauty of the game, being able to alter it as you see fit. It even encourages you to use 'house rules' and to pick your own rolling system (or rather, it used to... )
Anyway, being of the chaotic alignment doesn't mean crazy, willy-nilly explosions and death every five seconds. It just means that you don't think that the law is an important factor in every action. And the fact is, most people who would consider themselves very religious would say that the law of man is superceded by the law of their god.
Ergo, I think that a paladin who ignores the law of Thay by freeing slaves and putting down a governor who tortures his people is acting incredibly un-lawfully (if he is in Thay), but is also being completely dedicated, even married to his faith, gathering strength from it, and I'd even go as far as to say that if he were lawful, it would get in the way of his doing what was right in that case, because people would suffer because of his adherence to the law. So, even though he's breaking the law of Thay, I as a DM wouldn't penalize him for acting out of character, even if the DMG says so.
In other words, I have the opposite issue and just cannot see why a paladin must be lawful in order to gain the abilities given them by their god...
And here's the situation you asked for: A paladin of Torm (who according to WOTC is responsible for 'upholding the strictures of civilization') belongs to a particularly fervent sect that believes that betrayers must be put down. So, while campaigning with his tiefling sorcerer friend, said tiefling traps him behind a wall of force and steals the crown jewels and disappears rather than returning them to the royal family. So, said paladin now has to face the fact that his friend has betrayed him and thus, become a marked man. There ya go. He is following the tenets of his order. Of course, another DM might just label vengeance an evil act and tell him 'nu-uh', but this DM says it's good ol' fashioned roleplay and conflict, all alignments aside. 
In the Bible it says 'Give Caesar what is due Caesar, but Give God what is due God'. Granted, the Torah says 'The Law of the Land is the Law of the Land,' but I don't recall the men of the crusades or the Knights Templar or even the Arthur's Round Table having many lawyers in their ranks... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 22 Dec 2008 04:26:01 |
|
|
|
Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 06:39:49
|
Arion Elenim while I find your creativity refreshing and while not wrong is not necessarily right on the definition of lawful good paladins. While a paladin must respect the laws of the land it does not mean he can't buy the freedom of slaves. Or if he himself is forced to kill a Red Wizard or Thayan slave owner can't set their slaves free if given the choice. If he is being just in action and in the name of good he isn't breaking his alignment for good is what he upholds through being lawful.
Also remember if the paladin is from a country at war with Thay he isn't breaking any laws by your example given. He's being lawful good by adhering to his faith and his country as well as to universal good by setting those slaves free.
Also if the paladin has sufficent evidence that evil is using the law to harm innocent people he can forgo following the laws of the land to do good as long as it is for a lawful aim to "purify" the law of the land. He won't strike up a rebellon just to unseat one man and his organization unless there is no other course but to do so. First off he would try to pursuade through diplomacy to have the govenor to change his/her ways. Possibly the govenor is under foul magics or charms to have his/her judgment influenced. If no such evidence was apparant of that and the govenor still was abusing the law for his/her own means then he would ask for the other officals to take action to remove him/her from office, again through diplomacy. If it was evident that even they were in on it (or unable to act) with the govenor and supported all his/her actions, then he would see if the people felt persecuted by their leaders. If the majority did not, his hands are tied on any rebellous act. However, if they are merely law abiding citizens and are suffering at the hands of a tyrant he would be well within his rights to free them if their laws had been twisted by evil to harm. After all he is lawful in the pursuit to do the greatest good while being fair.
And one more thing, the paladin only has to respect the laws of the land. If he knows he has done nothing wrong by their legal system and is framed and knows he won't recieve a fair trial by the law (which is true for most evil nations) then he can run without breaking his tenets. As long as he does not personally and knowingly breaks his code of conduct, is honorable in action, and upholds his faiths tenets, no god of a paladin would punish the paladin for doing what is right by them.
Also I would like to point out, I have played a LG paladin that was on the run from an evil ruler before and kept a low profile, stayed in the wilderness, and only struck out against the injustice of law being used to harm people. If someone did indeed break a law knowingly he never interfered, but if the law was being used to abuse innocent people he would rise up against them if possible with whatever means were given to him to do within his code.
Now one might say my character lied about his name on numerous occasions to buy provisions, but he used a nickname he received in his childhood that would be obscure to anyone else. He also grew a beard and his hair to hide his facial features but never disguised himself and wore tattered clothes and his hood always pulled down low. Now someone might point out that's being deceptive, but it isn't considering no one was observant enough to pick him out in a crowd. If you haven't seen someone in a while they may look familiar to you, but you might not ever put two and two together until after they have had sufficent time to escape.
So as you can see it is possible to be lawful good and still act against a tyrant with the law on their side. It's just more tricky.
But as I always say, if you want to allow your players to play paladins without restrictions its your campaign. I'm just saying in my world they'll always be lawful good.
~Ghost King~ |
Edited by - Ghost King on 22 Dec 2008 06:58:20 |
|
|
|
Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 06:49:38
|
As for the main subject matter, I think an elven paladin should be rare and not serving an elven deity unless the god/goddess has LG, NG, or LN as alignment or in the case of Hanali/Sune or other gods that allow exceptions to the rule. I can't remember the female elf's name in Neverwinter Nights story in the first set released that served Tyr, but that would be an example I would see of an elf being a paladin.
However, as with any story, there are exceptions to the rule. Any of the elven deities might allow an elf paladin to serve them if they felt it would promote their cause/influence to do so.
That's just my take on it.
~Ghost King~ |
Edited by - Ghost King on 22 Dec 2008 06:50:46 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 06:56:35
|
note: I really dont like alignment discussions. Even more sowhen it comes to paladins.
You see, every argument has a flaw in it.
a LG paladin of Torm will trust a CG paladin of Corellon Larethian.
but either of which would strike and kill slave traders, whether in Thay or not. A LG paladin would however strive to ignore joebloke the drunken bard before warning him, as a cd paladin would be quick to warn.
there is even a flaw in mine |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 07:08:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how a chaotic anything can be expected to adhere to any strict code - isn't that part of being chaotic? I can see a cause, a general cause, such as promoting good, but nothing specific.
-No, not necessarily. As the saying goes, a Chaotic person "Marches to their own Drumbeat". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 07:09:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by see
There is, in fact, a NG member of the Seldarine in FR, at least in 2nd edition lore Khalreshaar. Elves of Evermeet mentions her, but doesn't give an alignment. Demihuman Deities then establishes her as being an elven alias of Mielikki . . . and Mielikki is neutral good.
So, if you want to stick to the canon FR elven pantheon alone and to the 3rd edition one-step rule, there's exactly one choice.
-Aspects of deities do not have to have the same alignment as the deity that the aspect is a part of. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 07:30:33
|
| I have to agree with what Ghost King wrote about paladins. It is no coincidence that in Faith and Pantheons in the description of the Silverstar prestige class we got the line "Selune demands an individualistic outlook on life that is incompatible with the lawful nature of paladins and monks, and her passionately good and chaotic nature leaves little room for the balance a druid requirees." The Silverstars are the equivalence of a paladin order for Selune, and I think, they can act as a rolemodel for paladin-like organisations of non-lawful alignment. (And maybe the Heartwarders of Sune are another one.) |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 07:30:50
|
I've always thought of paladins as an exclusively-human class, something that makes more sense than restricting bards (since I play and have always played 2e). To me, the only elven paladins would have been raised from birth in human communities and would worship human deities.
That said, I think the niche of "paladin" is something that multiple cultures would come up with. It's not that elven deities couldn't invest a couple of followers with the same powers as human paladins, but neither they nor their followers are much interested in doing things that way. They're older than the paladin concept, after all. I think for elves the bladesinger already fills that niche. He's an elite defender, a wanderer who's first into battle to protect those weaker than him. Sounds a lot like a paladin, doesn't it?
So, in response to the OP's post, I'd read that passage as saying that they make up a good percentage of the bladesinger fellowships, and as a people are eager to jump in and defend elves wherever they might be and how they might be endangered, and not that they're members of a class created by those smelly, hairy, over-breeding humans. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 09:42:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by see
There is, in fact, a NG member of the Seldarine in FR, at least in 2nd edition lore Khalreshaar. Elves of Evermeet mentions her, but doesn't give an alignment. Demihuman Deities then establishes her as being an elven alias of Mielikki . . . and Mielikki is neutral good.
So, if you want to stick to the canon FR elven pantheon alone and to the 3rd edition one-step rule, there's exactly one choice.
-Aspects of deities do not have to have the same alignment as the deity that the aspect is a part of.
As I said, no alignment is given for Khalreshaar. The only direction we have for details of Khalreshaar is where Demihuman Deities says, "See the entry for Mielikki in Faiths & Avatars for more information about Khalreshaar." Mielikki's entry gives her alignment as NG. No other alignment is given for Khalreshaar or for any other aspect of Mielikki in any other lore source that I can find. |
Edited by - see on 22 Dec 2008 09:43:42 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Sun elves, the RoF, and Paladins
