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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 20:17:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And according to 4e lore, Gods do NOT have 'races' - gods are all drawn from the same pool of beings and although they do have racial worshippers, they themselves care not a wit about race.
That, of course, was one of the major retcons of 4e, to help explain how some racial gods got combined with human ones.
And which is one of the biggest reasons I hate the 4e Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 23:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Back on Topic:
The stuff about Io being the Overgod of GH - was that also just a theory, or was that canon somewhere? I played GH for years and I don't recall seeing anything to that effect written down anywhere.
-It's all theory. The only overdeities that exist are Ao, and "The High Deity", from Dragonlance (or something to that effect).
'Tis the Highgod.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 23:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
There is a "high Deity" in Dragonlance? huh? I thought there was only Chaos the father of the gods and then like, the "good" deity...
The Highgod is the creator of Krynn, the gods and almost everything else. The Highgod came when there was naught but the void. This omnipotent being fashioned a beautiful new world and also gods to govern over this world. The Highgod guided his godlings in the new world and then left it in their hands. Once Krynn was completed, the Highgod withdrew from the world, and watched his creations from afar. The Highgod has no avatars, since he never appears in the mortal realm. The Highgod also has practically no followers, since almost no-one knows of his/her existence, except for the gods themselves. With the wanderings of Valthonis, it seems possible that more may be discovered about this great entity. The Highgod loves creation, and the only time he/she would ever take an active role upon Krynn, would be to prevent it's final destruction.
Ionthas/Chaos was once the chief servant of the Highgod, and the most powerful amongst the gods. However his pride made him haughty towards the other gods and they worked against him as he sought to dominate Krynn. He was beaten by the combined efforts of the gods and forsook them and even his name. He chose the name of Chaos and slowly fell into insanity as he was cast beyond creation by the Highgod. Part of his essence was later captured by Reorx in the Greygem, and Chaos himself soon found himself imprisoned within the gem for a long time. During the Summer of Chaos, he was freed inadvertantly by the Irda, and rampaged with his newly formed armies across the face of Krynn. On the verge of total dominance he was beaten by the combined efforts of the gods and of mortals. Ionthas was banished from the world for the rest of time.
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 07:41:41
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oh...who knew...well thanks Sage...very informative.  |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 11:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
oh...who knew...well thanks Sage...very informative.
Indeed, I'm glad I made this post, as usual  |
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Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 13:32:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-It's all theory. The only overdeities that exist are Ao, and "The High Deity", from Dragonlance (or something to that effect).
Yes, and the Serpent, of course ;) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 17:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
Yes, and the Serpent, of course ;)
-The World Serpent wouldn't be an Overdeity. It'd be more akin to a pantheon head than anything. Same thing with Jezarian, though without the pantheon behind him. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 17:29:34
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Thats why I added the category of 'Supreme Diety' to my divine codification, between Overgods and Greater Gods must be some of category for 'Pantheonic Leaders' (DvR 20-24 under my system).
In a world with only one pantheon you don't need that, or even if you are only playing a game in more diverse wotld but only concentrating on one region (like playing in Celtiv Europe, or Ancient Greece). But on world like Toril (or our RW) I think such a classification needed adding to explain certain things. If Odin and Zeus were just Greater Gods, then why would the rest listen to them?
This extra category is where I place beings like Fate, Maztica, and the Celestial Emperor - all of whom are above the gods of their respective pantheons but beneath Ao.
My system also takes into account PC levels and magic levels, so its a little more complex then that, but it all works out.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2008 18:37:20 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 17:55:58
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| -I don't think that Pantheon Heads "deserve" a new category for themselves. They're just Greater Deities, with a special, shiny badge denoting them as the heads of different pantheons. It's that badge that gives them the respect they deserve. Remember, in theory, a fairly weakish deity could be the head of a pantheon. I'm blanking on examples, but being the biggest, baddest and mightiest does not a pantheon leader necessarily make. |
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Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 18:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
Yes, and the Serpent, of course ;)
-The World Serpent wouldn't be an Overdeity. It'd be more akin to a pantheon head than anything. Same thing with Jezarian, though without the pantheon behind him.
No, not the World Serpent. That would be a DvR 20 Greater Deity, like Ionthas, or Mystra with the combined might of all her Chosen and Azuth.
The being I meant, however, is the personification of magic itself, the one mentioned in Die Vecna Die and in the Epic Level Handbook. ;) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 18:49:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I don't think that Pantheon Heads "deserve" a new category for themselves. They're just Greater Deities, with a special, shiny badge denoting them as the heads of different pantheons. It's that badge that gives them the respect they deserve. Remember, in theory, a fairly weakish deity could be the head of a pantheon. I'm blanking on examples, but being the biggest, baddest and mightiest does not a pantheon leader necessarily make.
But I actually have a bunch of mechanics worked-out around my system - like I said it's a lot more complicated then the way I describe it, and ties-into what gods (and mortals) can and can't do, depending on level.
For instance, a god can promote any other being to within one level of themselves (theres more to it then that, but this is the simplified version), but can only demote beings two levels lower then themselves. Ergo, a Greater God can take a lesser god and promote him to Intermediate God, but once there he cannot demote him. He could have demoted him to begin with down to demi-god (or even mortal, but these things must be dome one step at a time).
I have all sorts of things worked out for spheres of influence, power from worshippers, spell levels (demi-gods can use 10th lev, lower gods 11th, etc...), so its all inter-related and doesn't translate well here without an entire 3- page manuscript writen out.
Also, I use a single system for Char and DvR levels - which harkens back to the days of OD&D (I use an amalgam of every edition for my games). Its complicated, but it works for me, and each 'Cosmic Level' (Mortal, deity, God, Primordial (Elder God) has a group of 'in-between' levels that correspond to the 'farm-team' of the next higher level.
Ergo, demigods are former mortals aspiring to be true deities, while Supreme Gods (my add) are really those uber-deities aspiring to Over-godhood. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 18:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
No, not the World Serpent. That would be a DvR 20 Greater Deity, like Ionthas, or Mystra with the combined might of all her Chosen and Azuth.
The being I meant, however, is the personification of magic itself, the one mentioned in Die Vecna Die and in the Epic Level Handbook. ;)
-Oh, okay, that one. I'm not sure how that'd work, with only vague mentions, and different cosmologies and all of that... |
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Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
[quote]-Oh, okay, that one. I'm not sure how that'd work, with only vague mentions, and different cosmologies and all of that...
Well, as being the personification of one of the most essential concepts in the entire multiverse, he should rank even above Ao, imo, since Ao just got his crystal sphere and nothing else. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
Well, as being the personification of one of the most essential concepts in the entire multiverse, he should rank even above Ao, imo, since Ao just got his crystal sphere and nothing else.
Hmmm, though it is an essential concept of the multiuniverse, who created that concept? I think that is what an overgod is. They create such things as magic, life, death, and then they create powerful entities (gods) to watch over them. I don't think we can manage to agree on what came first, Ao or magic, and there is probably no official lore on the matter, or is there? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
[quote]-Oh, okay, that one. I'm not sure how that'd work, with only vague mentions, and different cosmologies and all of that...
Well, as being the personification of one of the most essential concepts in the entire multiverse, he should rank even above Ao, imo, since Ao just got his crystal sphere and nothing else.
Yes and no... Io can, conceivably, be more powerful than Ao, overall, since his reach extends much further. However, the overdeity of a sphere is the supreme authority within that sphere. So Io may be stronger elsewhere, but in Realmspace, Ao is the top dog. |
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Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Hmmm, though it is an essential concept of the multiuniverse, who created that concept? I think that is what an overgod is. They create such things as magic, life, death, and then they create powerful entities (gods) to watch over them. I don't think we can manage to agree on what came first, Ao or magic, and there is probably no official lore on the matter, or is there?
Don't think so, no.
Overpowers don't create concepts, they are concepts (at least some of them). The other guys who are not concepts (as Ao) just give the responsible power to creaturs (deities) who maintain the respecitve concept on the respective world.
Anyway, I rather like it the way, that the Serpent IS Magic. As other overpowers ARE life/death/fate/law/chaos/good/evil whatever. They were created by even higher overpowers, who in turn were created by a omnipotent being. Let's call it the One Above All. ;)
Dicefreaks worked out some really good stuff on that. |
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Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:51:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes and no... Io can, conceivably, be more powerful than Ao, overall, since his reach extends much further. However, the overdeity of a sphere is the supreme authority within that sphere. So Io may be stronger elsewhere, but in Realmspace, Ao is the top dog.
That's the question. To what extent has a higher ranking 'non-crystal sphere' overpower influnce on the domain (crystal sphere) of another overpower?
Well, and of course, Io could be more powerful than Ao, but Ao effectively doesn't even exist outside of realmspace. So a comparison could only be made within realmspace. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:56:10
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-What came first? The overdeity, or the concept? A play on the "what came first, the chicken, or the egg" argument*.
*Of course, with this one, we have an absolute answer, the egg predating the chicken by hundreds of thousands of years, but... |
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Elves of Faerūn
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 19:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes and no... Io can, conceivably, be more powerful than Ao, overall, since his reach extends much further. However, the overdeity of a sphere is the supreme authority within that sphere. So Io may be stronger elsewhere, but in Realmspace, Ao is the top dog.
I think the one thing we can all agree on is that Ao is the one (considering that Ao is ONE being and not an assembly of beings) with the more powers in Realmspace. Even if we accept the theory of the Serpent of magic, I think that Ao would have the power to kick him out of his realms if he wanted to. Ohh, maybe that's the real reason for the death of Myst... nonono, I won't start that here. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 21:01:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes and no... Io can, conceivably, be more powerful than Ao, overall, since his reach extends much further. However, the overdeity of a sphere is the supreme authority within that sphere. So Io may be stronger elsewhere, but in Realmspace, Ao is the top dog.
That's the question. To what extent has a higher ranking 'non-crystal sphere' overpower influnce on the domain (crystal sphere) of another overpower?
Considering that the crystal sphere overpower is top dog, the influence of the pantheonic overpower is whatever the sphere overpower allows. Ao doesn't have to allow Io any influence in the Realms, if he doesn't want to. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 23:23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes and no... Io can, conceivably, be more powerful than Ao, overall, since his reach extends much further. However, the overdeity of a sphere is the supreme authority within that sphere. So Io may be stronger elsewhere, but in Realmspace, Ao is the top dog.
That's the question. To what extent has a higher ranking 'non-crystal sphere' overpower influnce on the domain (crystal sphere) of another overpower?
Not much. As we know, for example, that the Highgod of Krynnspace has no direct influence over the Overdeity of Realmspace, or any opportunity for influence throughout Realmspace. |
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Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 18:30:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not much. As we know, for example, that the Highgod of Krynnspace has no direct influence over the Overdeity of Realmspace, or any opportunity for influence throughout Realmspace.
Well, the High God and Ao would be equals. But I guess this holds true even for overpowers with more power or a higher divine rank than Ao, like the Serpent or the Overlord of Hell. Since, if they would have much influence, they could virtually manipulate things as it fits them. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 23:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Draezen
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not much. As we know, for example, that the Highgod of Krynnspace has no direct influence over the Overdeity of Realmspace, or any opportunity for influence throughout Realmspace.
Well, the High God and Ao would be equals. But I guess this holds true even for overpowers with more power or a higher divine rank than Ao, like the Serpent or the Overlord of Hell. Since, if they would have much influence, they could virtually manipulate things as it fits them.
Well, since the overall abilities of overpowers have never really been defined [nor should they], I would think it would be somewhat difficult to automatically assume that powers like the Highgod and AO *could* be equals. Granted, there are likely core "overpower abilities" that each overpower, like the Highgod and Ao, can utilise. But bach pantheon is different, after all, and I'd expect that overpowers, and the expression of their powers within their respective spheres, would be largely determined by the campaign-wide "plot" of the sphere itself. |
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Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 20:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, since the overall abilities of overpowers have never really been defined [nor should they], I would think it would be somewhat difficult to automatically assume that powers like the Highgod and AO *could* be equals. Granted, there are likely core "overpower abilities" that each overpower, like the Highgod and Ao, can utilise. But bach pantheon is different, after all, and I'd expect that overpowers, and the expression of their powers within their respective spheres, would be largely determined by the campaign-wide "plot" of the sphere itself.
Yes, or, if it works in a similar way as the power of deities, then the power of overpowers could be determined by the number of deities that are active within their sphere. And then Ao and the High God wouldn't be equals, I suppose. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 22:55:13
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We really don't know a whole lot about the abilities of either Ao or the Highgod so, again, it's difficult to make comparisons. The 3e DL material, and some novels, suggest a little about what the Highgod can and cannot do. But we should remember that these were the utterances of "mere" mortals -- who really cannot even begin to appreciate the realities of a standard power, let alone an overpower.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 03:36:32
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If we extrapolate from the god rules in the 3e Deities & Demigods book (and I realize that some may not agree with that approach) it says that overgods have divine rank 21+. They are beyond the ken of mortals, they don't require worship, don't answer prayers or respond to mortal queries. They don't even usually concern themselves with mortal affairs, or even make their existence known to mortals.
From this we might construe a system of overgod powers that scale with divine ranks along the same lines as the epic rule set scales from the 20 base player character levels.
I could imagine then that overgods get a number of salient overdivine abilities commensurate with their overdivine rank. Such SOA's might include things like "Create Crystal Sphere" or "Create Race" or "Create Plane". It probably also includes things like "Enhance Adeledicnander" and "Polythuferous Vormigain" but what those things are I couldn't begin to guess.
My take on it is that overgods have expanded consciousnesses that extend into extra dimensions. They exist at much higher levels of reality. They are nth dimensional beings that have concerns far beyond the scope of the mundane universe.
Some overgods may be charged with protecting individual crystal spheres, like Ao and the Highgod. Some think that the Lady of Pain is an overgod and is similarly responsible for guarding Sigil. I like to think that there are overgods dedicated to keeping the Vranx and the inimicable beings that live deep within the mandelbrot set from invading reality, keeping the Far Realms from perfusing through the multiverse, maintaining the gravitational constant and other universal laws necessary to the support of life.
I imagine that there are whole armies and societies of overgods engaged in all manner of activities that we could not even begin to comprehend. Overgods are ineffable and inscrutable. Overgods are to us as NASA is to an ant colony.
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 19:23:26
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| Of course, it is also established that there are over-overpowers. They would be to the gods as Ao is to mortals . . . |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2008 : 20:49:43
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in my more Athar-like approach they're creatures of Balance, Ao, Io, The Lady of Pain, Center of All, Annam, Curna + unknown others
better to keep them a mystery
each one is unique, Realmspace is Ao's ''demiplane'', somewhat similar are Sigil, Dragon Eyrie, Jotunhheim
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 03:12:57
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I think Aoskar was just an ordinary god of portals.
My theory is that Aoskar was an ascended Imaskari wizard, probably one of the first. Maybe even the inventor (or at least discoverer) of portal magic for the Imaskari. Or if not the inventor at least then maybe the best known practitioner of the art.
I think it possible that the name "Imaskar" derives from Aoskar's name. Im'Aoskar could be a genitive or a clan-name form of Aoskar's name. Similar to the Scottish name "O'Leary". Over time, "Im'Aoskar" elided into "Imaskar", the name we are more familiar with.
While the Imaskari were thought to be godless, I would be surprised if none of them ever considered becoming gods. It seems like a natural progression for Aoskar, having mastered portal magic, risen to the leadership of his people, and presumably gained class levels above 20+, to want to explore divine ascension.
Of course, once he ascended Aoskar would still be hard-pressed to get the godless Imaskari to actually revere him as a god. They might have been impressed by his ascension but were not the type to then fall to their knees in worship of him. The Imaskari thought themselves peers of gods, not followers of them. Aoskar's curiosity, love of planewalking, and need to attract followers would have driven him to leave his people behind to wander the planes and nurture a worshiper base.
Rip Van Wormer wrote a very cool story about how the Imaskari may have actually created Sigil (sort of). It is an amazing little piece. Thinking on it, I could imagine Aoskar as Sigil's master architect, or perhaps the one who crafted all of Sigil's portals. It might explain why Aoskar's presence was tolerated for so long by the Lady of Pain.
After a little googling I found the link to Rip's story here: How the Imaskari Created Sigil, by Rip Van Wormer Check it out! It is worth a read. |
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Io and Ao
