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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:01:06
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Okay, I just read this over on the WotC boards, and I thought it was a really bad joke, but it turns out it's not.
Mystra dies from getting smacked in the head with Azuth's staff by Cyric. A mortal was given knowledge of the entire scenario (meaning Savras should have also been able to forsee it) as Aliisza was able to see the entire vision and was not blocked by Shar or Cyric as some hypothesized. Mystra allows Cyric to stand directly in front of her and then turns away from him (something I don't think would ever happen because he tried to KILL her multiple times before). Azuth is entranced by Shar's dancing while standing next to Mystra (cmon people DANCING?)..who conveniently also is with Mystra, Azuth, and Cyric. Azuth drops his staff from being entranced, the staff is picked up by an agent of Shar (actually an avatar of Shar herself) and passed to Cyric who has the time to step behind Mystra and brain her.
So NO shadow weave magic was used to kill her, NO assassination by sneaking into Dweomerheart, NO cloaking of either Shar or Cyric. They waltzed in, Shar danced, Mystra and Azuth were portrayed as being stupid enough to be distracted from TWO EVIL GREATER POWERS STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM, and Cyric takes a single step and murders her with a staff made by Azuth. Also amazingly, both Shar and Cyric should have been blasted across the multiverse too in the resulting explosion..but ahh well.
This canon explanation defies all lore, any common sense, and has so many holes it's laughable.
That was posted by a member name Karazhan, and it was corroborated by at least one other.
its not a joke people... but it should be.
This has to be the WORST 4e lore to come down the pipe yet. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 06:26:17
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Well, in Shar's defense, I did hear she does a really mean Electric Slide.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 06:31:56
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Ignoring the utter nonsense presented to us, didn't they say we won't get any lore about Mystra's death, the Spellplague and the like so that new gamers wouldn't be bothered with learning extraneous lore?
Oh, if only they'd kept their word ... |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 05 Nov 2008 06:33:21 |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 07:48:12
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| That can't possibly be the WotC 'canon' explanation. |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 09:13:48
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But...
If it is canon is canon (for me) ... to be fixed by fans ...
I also post this question on the "How bloody stupid..." thread, but probably here is the correct place:
I don't have "Fractured sky" so: it was simply the attack that destroyed Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff?
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Edited by - Arioch on 05 Nov 2008 11:00:12 |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 11:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I don't have "Fractured sky" so: it was simply the attack that destroyed Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff?
That's true... maybe she's just imprisoned in it like Savras used to be... |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 12:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I don't have "Fractured sky" so: it was simply the attack that destroyed Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff?
That's true... maybe she's just imprisoned in it like Savras used to be...
MMM... I don't think this can be possible given all the mess of the Spell Plague and the fact that the weave is no more. But maybe there is some sort of connection between the imprisonment effect and the fact that the blow was the killing one...
Does the book say something more specific about the blow? |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 14:11:00
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 14:51:17
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Oh COME ON!!! Sabruin Naed Hrast TLARN!!! The realms developers are supposed to be professionals. How could they possibly think this is not ridiculous?
Sorry for the explosion, but this.....this..... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 15:36:19
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Its like they're not even trying anymore.
I didn't think about the imprisonment aspect of the staff - I really hope we don't get a Mystra 4.0 - the only thing worse then killing her would be to bring her back... AGAIN.
My best guess - Mr. Reid was told by someone that Mystra HAD TO be killed by Azuth's Staff (they are already planning their 'out'), and that was the best he could do story-wise.
Which speaks VOLUMES about his story-telling talent. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Nov 2008 15:37:06 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 15:45:45
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| By the Gods. If this is what they are printing, then how can they expect us to swallow such drivel?? I have never seen such a retarded explaination of Mystra's death then what I have just read. There is no way in the Nine Hells Mystra would just stand there and be all 'duh' about it. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 16:18:54
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I think the name of this trilogy should be changed to The Empryean Idiocy.
And to think - I'm in an EXTREMELY good mood this morning. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Nov 2008 16:19:21 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 16:26:19
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quote:
I didn't think about the imprisonment aspect of the staff - I really hope we don't get a Mystra 4.0 - the only thing worse then killing her would be to bring her back... AGAIN.
Agreed! That's because I said: impossible. I said it more to myself... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 16:28:42
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Folks, we're getting quite close to overt author-bashing, here. Let's keep that to a minimum, please.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 16:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its like they're not even trying anymore.
I disagree. I think it is more along the lines of good employees (The authors) trying to provide content to the customers (us) within the boundaries defined by the bosses (The evil 'man'). I don't think for a moment that the 4E was the result of the writers thinking "Gee, how can we alienate our fan base?". Rather, I believe, it was more along the lines of the bosses thinking "Gee, how can we drive up profit margins?".
Simply put, I refuse to buy 4E products. I've purchased every 3E accessory/novel and have drawn my proverbial line in the sand. No campaign of mine will ever involve 4E lore. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 17:29:06
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| Has anyone in this thread read the book? If you refuse to buy the book then at least go to the local bookstore/library. Once there, read the last three chapters before complaining. From what I read in the spoiler supplied to us by Markustay, a mortal was given a vision. In this vision they see how Mystra was murdered. Visions are dream like in nature and just like dreams open to interpretation. (Does the sun in my dream represent the big ball of gas in the sky or my father or my Father?) Visions/prophecies are divine gifts from a spiritual being, say a deity for example. The question is which deity? Cyric? Shar? Savras? The Sage or Ed or anyone else can correct me if Im wrong but a Greater Power (Prince of lies) can block Lesser Powers (Savras) when it comes to divination magic. Now if a reader of this thread has read the book and would like to contribute, please do. Don't be afraid, we don't bite that hard. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you dont want to move to the new Realms, that doesnt mean theres anything wrong with either you or the old Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches wont fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 17:39:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, we're getting quite close to overt author-bashing, here. Let's keep that to a minimum, please.
As far as I am concerned the "story" is just rumor and anything that sounds like "author bashing" is just taunting them "c'mon, prove me wrong that the story isnt as bad as the rumors make it", because - in the end - thats all we can do.
Cases like this always remind me of something Dukat - Minbari leader, Babylon 5 - said: "When others do a foolish thing you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be."(*1)
From the point of view of the people who say "its a ridiculous plot" there simply isnt much sense to this (*2) happening and most of the reason is probably that there are wayyy too many unexplained things atm to see the logic behind it. That logic may be there or it may be totally ridiculous and constructed. Now it looks like it is time for the authors to prove that its there and sound and I would triple check any plot from multiple points of view if I was an author writing a novel. The fault for bad plots doesnt really lie with the individual authors IMO - although they might share a part of the blame - but rather with WotC for cutting the complex carpet which was the original Forgotten Realms up too much so we have too many loose ends left now.
At this time it isnt just the fans who are "hanging over a cliff on a thin rope", its the authors as well, because they are missing the reasoning the details behind most of the new things that have happened as well. Since the setting still keeps the claim of "richness" there are many things which need to be explained for consistencys sake. I doubt there will be no "mistakes" made in the process of explaining things in novels, but thats all due to too many loose ends.
(*1) Babylon 5, Season 4, Episode 9
(*2) "this" could be the actual events of Mystras death or almost all things that happen in the New Realms which havent been explained reasonably, but which are on the minds of the fans. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 19:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Hmm...Why, this seems very plausible. Of course! Yes! Why, it makes complete and utter sense. And, did I say it's quite plausible?
Heehee.
Have to admit (although you can probably discern this from my other posts) I'm past the point of caring by now. I respect the author and have enjoyed his past work, but I'm not sure I even feel like finishing this particular series. My enthusiasm for the FR novel line has definitely waned, and nowadays I find there are other books I'd rather read.
PS: I know and in fact trust the word of the poster who divulged this spoiler--I won't tell people what to believe, but I have no reason to think he's just "feeding us a rumor". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 Nov 2008 19:09:17 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 19:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Heehee.
Have to admit (although you can probably discern this from my other posts) I'm past the point of caring by now. I respect the author and have enjoyed his past work, but I'm not sure I even feel like finishing this particular series. My enthusiasm for the FR novel line has definitely waned, and nowadays I find there are other books I'd rather read.
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-Yes, there is, honestly, a zero percent chance that I pick up this novel. I wasn't exactly a big fan of the first book in the series, so that was strike one. That there was a massive, one-year plus gap in when the first book and the second book was released- causing me to forget many of the minor details in the first one, and require me to read the first book to refresh myself before reading book two- is strike two. And, honestly, that the above is actually what takes place within this novel, is strike three. And, you know how much I like baseball, so, when strike three is called, you're outta there. Unless, of course, the pitcher throws a wild pitch, the catcher has a passed ball, and first base is free. Then, you get to steal first. But, in this case, a knuckleball was thrown, and the catcher handled it just fine. Doug Mirabelli must be catching. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Nov 2008 19:47:16 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 20:22:15
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| *grins* I believe I see your point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 22:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, we're getting quite close to overt author-bashing, here. Let's keep that to a minimum, please.
Sorry Wooly - I actually thought the 'idiocy' comment was pretty light-hearted (I meant it to be a joke).
And I apologize if it was taken seriously. 
And I was NOT calling the author an idiot, but rather my own perspective on it (that he was TOLD to put something along those lines in there).
You see, I'd much rather believe in my heart of hearts in intrigues and hidden agendas, then that the people at WotC truly feel all of this new lore is quality stuff.
People like Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell have been around a long time, and I just think they are much better then that. Better to think you're 'idols' are victims themselves, then the perpetrators. 
In all seriousness, do ANY of you think that a team sat around hashing this story out, and came up with the idea that Shar did a Hootchie Dance and left Azuth a drooling imbecile?
I'm just not buying it - the Staff thing seams like a plothook they needed for something down the line, but the rest looks as if it was just thrown together willy-nilly.
By me speculating about alterior motives, I'm actually giving them the benefit of the doubt (because I think most of those guys DO have a boatload of talent). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Nov 2008 22:13:14 |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 22:42:00
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I've accepted the fact that Mystra is dead but I was hoping for a good explanation. But this is rather disapointing and far from good  .
If this is true I'll stick with the non-canon lore posted by some of the scribes here. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 03:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I don't have "Fractured sky" so: it was simply the attack that destroyed Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff?
That's true... maybe she's just imprisoned in it like Savras used to be...
-Yes the sweet irony, Mystra trapped in the Supreme Throne with Cyric for 1000 years. Maybe WotC will use that story line to release her in time for 8E!
-Maybe thats why Shar could "block" a new God of Magic being Named, cause the overgod knows she still exist's. Thats who is in Elminsters mind, crying out for release and freedom! Think out side the box people. Or is it just easier to bash WotC. Think about it. This would make a great Epic 3E OR 4E quest. Heck those that still play 1E AND 2E could use it too! 
BRIMSTONE   |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 06 Nov 2008 03:10:03 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 03:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I don't have "Fractured sky" so: it was simply the attack that destroyed Mystra or her death is somehow related to the imprisonment effect of the Old Staff?
That's true... maybe she's just imprisoned in it like Savras used to be...
-Yes the sweet irony, Mystra trapped in the Supreme Throne with Cyric for 1000 years. Maybe WotC will use that story line to release her in time for 8E!
-Maybe thats why Shar could "block" a new God of Magic being Named, cause the overgod knows she still exist's. Thats who is in Elminsters mind, crying out for release and freedom! Think out side the box people. Or is it just easier to bash WotC. Think about it. This would make a great Epic 3E OR 4E quest. Heck those that still play 1E AND 2E could use it too!
BRIMSTONE
I appreciate the sentiments BRIMSTONE, but looking at what WotC has said and the reasons behind Mystra's death and the Spellplague, I don't think that she's trapped in the throne or staff. As far as what's in El's mind? Won't know until Ed's book comes out? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 03:50:51
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- The way I see it is Wizards has given me just enough to create a campaign arc to free her. Sure it won't be cannon in the Wizards Realms, but if I can have a fun and exicting game and my players are the heroes in it, then so be it. Maybe with Mystra in the Staff that is what protected Cyric and Shar when her plane went kapooy. Instead of just complaining again in another thread about WotC and how they "ruined" the Realms, use what they give us to create fun games, which is what the Realms were originally about!
I understand that people don't like the 4E Realms. Me I am thinking about using the Old Grey Box as a foundation for my 4E FR myself. I try and be positive for those new player's that come around, they might ask about the Older Realms. Now if all they see is negativity about the System they are playing well that might make me look bias against it so that could be strike one against me showing them the wonders of this AWESOME SETTING. Over in the Wizards Forums this guy came around due to 4E, he got the 4E FRCG, then he got the FRCS from 3E and he loves the 3E book, yet likes the 4E Rules. So I have been helping him out instead of just stewing in negativity.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 12:38:45
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At the beginning I don't liked the idea of Mystra resurrected again... but in the end, why not? Is *quite* congruent with the lore... (keeping in mind that nowhere is stated that this is going to happen)
I think I'm gonna dislike the discussions based on "rumors"... I see no sense in speculating on incomplete versions just to complain about how bad they are, how...INCOMPLETE they are!
If we don't know the details, how can we say that it is going to be a terrible story? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 13:49:52
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I agree Brimmy.
Although I am not a fan of the 4E rules or the post-Spellplague Realms, I don't wish them ill. I hope to have the Realms continued being published well into the future. And, though I choose not to play 4th, I undestand those that do want to play, and wish them the joy of gaming that I've known through the years.
As for my campaign, I'm just running the players through Cormyr/Shadowdale/Anauroch and then taking them into epic level territory to prevent the Spellplague from happening. And, knowing my group, I'm not sure whether the results of the will be better or worse... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 14:25:58
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| I'm still DMing a group in 1375 so I've got ten whole years of gametime before I have to even think about whether to incorporate the Spellplague. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 14:43:24
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| Well, CSA takes place in 1375, but the fact that it leads into a 'final confrontation' between Shar and Mystra is too good to pass up, IMHO. All three adventures are set for the players to disrupt Shar from trying to break the weave, and by the end you're in the Shade Enclave and all, so I just figured... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Fractured Sky ***SPOILER ALERT!!!***
