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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 08:38:44
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Kyrene sums it up pretty well. It's not about the workers and the quality of their work anymore (i.e. tactical level), but it's more about the pointlessness of it all (i.e. strategic level).
It comes down to the bad direction / flawed strategic view of the whole Realms project as a whole. Like Kyrene so expertly said, patching (i.e. band aids) a fundamentally diseased organism can never be enough: one must either cure the disease or start again with a new healthy baby.
Come here, you cute little Paizo baby!! gaga googoo!    |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 10:15:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
However, as some of our own scribes have proven, being told you can't go in one direction is not being told you can't go in any direction. Sometimes being forced to work within (or around) specified limits can create new heights of creativity.
Though, clearly, this has not been this case with the new FR setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
It comes down to the bad direction / flawed strategic view of the whole Realms project as a whole. Like Kyrene so expertly said, patching (i.e. band aids) a fundamentally diseased organism can never be enough: one must either cure the disease or start again with a new healthy baby.
I see the difference between WotC and Paizo as far as limiting creativity... the "at least they are honest about it" approach. Personally, what I like about that is that you get the feeling that Paizo will listen to your feedback since they're putting everything on the table. Maybe they'll change their minds based on public feedback, and maybe they're stick to their guns... but the open, honest approach is more refreshing.
As far as the whole "starting fresh with a new healthy baby," the arguement can be made that the head executives making the decision are using exactly that logic with the Forgotten Realms. They saw a very vocal crowd bashing things like the number of gods, the whole Weave and patron diety of magic, and a focus on super hero-like NPCs that make some feel their player characters don't matter or make a difference. So they started off with a new baby and and applied preventative medicine to "cure the disease" before it was a problem.
I think they bollixed the whole thing up and the new baby is going to end up with shaken baby syndrome before long. Throttling the young like they have with the new 4e setting just isn't healthy... and it is coming into a financially diseased environment, too. This baby should already be on life support... and then someone should pull the plug before I make anymore morbid infant comparisons.
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Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
Edited by - Nerfed2Hell on 13 Oct 2008 10:16:04 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 15:19:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
So we have to be thankful to "dedicated scribes" like Brian for the tidbits of lore they manage to "slip in" every now an then into a Realms that has no resemblance at all to what has come before (or said in another way, no resemblance to the tidbits they are trying to slip in). Rubbish, says I!
You're overlooking the fact that once those tidbits are slipped in, opportunities to significantly build upon them, become possible in the future. That is often how Realmslore is generated after all, with snippets introduced here and there, and expanded upon in later supplements when it's applicable.
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Their creativity would be much better served, and indeed the mighty paycheck better earned, by creating rather than patching up. That is not dedication, but rather foolhardiness. Are we all really going to remember how valiantly Brian (and others) went down with the ship? I'm a little too cynical about human nature to believe that.
But they are creating. Brian's latest work on Auril is proof enough that the creative juices for quality Realmslore are still pumping. He's not merely "patching up" -- Brian's brought Auril-specific lore from previous editions and managed to connect it with events in the post-Spellplague period. That sounds like creating new Realmslore to me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 18:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
He's not merely "patching up" -- Brian's brought Auril-specific lore from previous editions and managed to connect it with events in the post-Spellplague period. That sounds like creating new Realmslore to me.
Like I said Sage, it's not about the work of Brian (or others) but it's that any new Realmslore will, by default, necessitate to be "connected with post-Sellplague" events (bold emphasis mine, above).
Regardless of how good the new Auril Realmslore may be (and kudos to Brian for actually reseaching previous lore), it now exists in somewhat of a vacuum where Mystra and countless others do not exist anymore. After seeing what they've done to the Realms, at this point, I'm of the opinion that 4E Realms should have been A) a direct continuation of 3E Realms, say picking up at 1375 DR, with plots related to new Myth Drannor, the Zhents, the Empire of Shade, Phase 2 of the Red Wizard Wal-Mart Expansion, and countless other loose ends that needed tying up; or B) kill the Realms completely and restart a NEW setting from scratch (i.e. if Eberron wasn't good enough to compete with the Realms, then this Option B, IMO, would have been hard to pull off, but better that than the current abobination that is the 4$ Realmzzz...) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 00:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Like I said Sage, it's not about the work of Brian (or others) but it's that any new Realmslore will, by default, necessitate to be "connected with post-Sellplague" events (bold emphasis mine, above).
Not necessarily. Take a look at Steven Schend's Blackstaff Tower. Yes, there were some notable references to Spellplague-based events in the tale, but we also saw plenty of new and cool Waterdeep-specific lore that is edition-neutral.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - The Sage on 14 Oct 2008 00:22:54 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 10:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Like I said Sage, it's not about the work of Brian (or others) but it's that any new Realmslore will, by default, necessitate to be "connected with post-Sellplague" events (bold emphasis mine, above).
Not necessarily. Take a look at Steven Schend's Blackstaff Tower. Yes, there were some notable references to Spellplague-based events in the tale, but we also saw plenty of new and cool Waterdeep-specific lore that is edition-neutral.
Likewise, Mistshore. Though, as it seems, each novel focusses on just one part of the city and not much around that.
One would hope that the novel authors and the designers will get together and use some of the movers and shakers for future FR products. Like these sinister elven ladies. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 11:02:40
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Originally posted by The Sage
You're overlooking the fact that once those tidbits are slipped in, opportunities to significantly build upon them, become possible in the future.
Significantly build upon them in what future? Our own, with no 'official'—and then often dubious—lore without a DDI subscription? Or, a future Realms, post-1479 DR, which just does not make sense to wait for/use anyway if one is against it in the first place.
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That is often how Realmslore is generated after all, with snippets introduced here and there, and expanded upon in later supplements when it's applicable.
What later supplements?
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But they are creating. Brian's latest work on Auril is proof enough that the creative juices for quality Realmslore are still pumping.
That is not what I meant and you know it. Perhaps you are being purposely obtuse during your defense of the esteemed designers that frequent these hallowed halls.
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He's not merely "patching up" -- Brian's brought Auril-specific lore from previous editions and managed to connect it with events in the post-Spellplague period. That sounds like creating new Realmslore to me.
It sounds like "patching up" to me. I have read that article, and while it shows that Brian is a superb creator/designer, he still had to "connect it" with post-Spellplague—I resisted using Wooly's name for it; must've rolled a natural 20 there. 
But now that I have defended my opnion, I shall let it rest. We shall never convince each other if our opinions differ, and if they don't we'd agree already. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 11:06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, there were some notable references to Spellplague-based events in the tale, but we also saw plenty of new and cool Waterdeep-specific lore that is edition-neutral.
Would that lore also be Realms/Waterdeep timeline neutral? If there were no Spellplague, would that lore be as applicable in say, 1375DR? |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 12:40:14
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| I have to agree that for me any Realmslore that I can't use in my pre-Spellplague campaigns is useless. So, unfortunately, I can't make any suggestions for lore or use much of what is presented. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 13:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, there were some notable references to Spellplague-based events in the tale, but we also saw plenty of new and cool Waterdeep-specific lore that is edition-neutral.
Would that lore also be Realms/Waterdeep timeline neutral? If there were no Spellplague, would that lore be as applicable in say, 1375DR?
Yes, some of it is. The main character is an amateur historian, so a lot of things he talks about are about Waterdeep's past (even before 1375). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:28:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
That's the problem exactly... the people in charge are looking for newer, younger gamers to bring into the fold... because young people spend money frivously. Adults who've been playing in the beloved world of Toril have been getting older, must divide their money between "fun things" and paying bills like car payments, mortgages, (home/life/auto) insurance, and any number of other things... they're likely to budget better and buy less. Not to mention that they will likely die sooner than newer, younger gamers.
Come on, now, that last assertion was a bit of a stretch, I think. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of "old" D&D fans aren't necessarily in the twilight of their lives yet. It's the 21st century and being, say, 45 years old is hardly "on the brink of death."
Not to mention that "older" fans aren't necessarily old. I've been a fan of the Realms for the better part of a decade (which isn't that long compared to some here, I know), and I'm still in my twenties. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
But lets face it: If Ed would openly say that he hates the new Realms (*1) and wont have anything more to do with it that would be a publicity nightmare for the company and maybe enough for them to change it.
We all know he's too classy to do something like that.
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The question is: When is the damage done to the Forgotten Realms big enough so it cant be salvaged anymore?
For me, the official Realms has already reached that point, so I'm content (partly because I want to be, partly because I have to be) to focus on developing my own Realms to suit my own tastes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:38:57
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Originally posted by Kyrene
Significantly build upon them in what future? Our own, with no 'official'—and then often dubious—lore without a DDI subscription? Or, a future Realms, post-1479 DR, which just does not make sense to wait for/use anyway if one is against it in the first place.
Any of the future FR articles that designers intend to produce for DDi can potentially build upon earlier introduced Realmslore tidbits.
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What later supplements?
I was talking about the 3e Realmslore design process earlier. And I'd assume the 4e design model for Realmslore follows much the same process. Only, instead of later supplements, we have later online articles.
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That is not what I meant and you know it. Perhaps you are being purposely obtuse during your defense of the esteemed designers that frequent these hallowed halls.
I don't have any need to defend them in this regard. It's simple fact that Brian's work with the 4e Realms is clearly more than just the kind of "patching-up" that you claimed above. I'm sorry you can't appreciate that.
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It sounds like "patching up" to me. I have read that article, and while it shows that Brian is a superb creator/designer, he still had to "connect it" with post-Spellplague—I resisted using Wooly's name for it; must've rolled a natural 20 there.
And in order to "connect," you have to "create." Brian's displayed a superb talent for taking what we already know about a particular aspect of the Realms, established in a previous edition, and exploring a potential future for that aspect in the post-Spellplague Realms. That involves creation -- pure and simple.
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But now that I have defended my opnion, I shall let it rest. We shall never convince each other if our opinions differ, and if they don't we'd agree already.
Fair enough.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Yes, there were some notable references to Spellplague-based events in the tale, but we also saw plenty of new and cool Waterdeep-specific lore that is edition-neutral.
Would that lore also be Realms/Waterdeep timeline neutral? If there were no Spellplague, would that lore be as applicable in say, 1375DR?
Yes. As I recall, Steven Schend said that there'd be a little something for all kinds of Realms fans in Blackstaff Tower with respect to the Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 14:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We don't know, though, that anyone has been a yes man, or that WotC is stifling anyone's creativity. All that we know for certain is that at least a couple of people have opposed the Sellplague, but, for their own reasons, not bailed on the setting. Anything beyond that is speculation.
Very true. Even Rich Baker (who has been quite a popular target, at least in the past) has mentioned that he's "fought battles" for the Realms setting that we will never know about. From everything I've heard, the process of changing the Realms involved plenty of dissent. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 15:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
That's the problem exactly... the people in charge are looking for newer, younger gamers to bring into the fold... because young people spend money frivously. Adults who've been playing in the beloved world of Toril have been getting older, must divide their money between "fun things" and paying bills like car payments, mortgages, (home/life/auto) insurance, and any number of other things... they're likely to budget better and buy less. Not to mention that they will likely die sooner than newer, younger gamers.
Come on, now, that last assertion was a bit of a stretch, I think. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of "old" D&D fans aren't necessarily in the twilight of their lives yet. It's the 21st century and being, say, 45 years old is hardly "on the brink of death."
Not to mention that "older" fans aren't necessarily old. I've been a fan of the Realms for the better part of a decade (which isn't that long compared to some here, I know), and I'm still in my twenties.
Also, the "older" fans probably have more brute expendible income left over after budgeting for life and bills, to out-spend the "younger gamers" anyway. Percentage wise, sure, the "younger gamers" can—and probably do—use more of their income on "fun things", but they also earn less, if they earn at all—in which case they can only spend as much as an "older" parent allows them to. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 16:31:46
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Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
"Lol. The thing is, they did not even put the FR logo (or even a new version of it) on the FRCG. There is only the 4e D&D logo and the words "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting."
Ok...I can't believe I hadn't noticed this earlier...in all my "excitement" I totally missed the fact that the FR logo does not appear on the FRCG or FRPG. They just have the $e D&D logo and the titles of each book "Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide" and "Forgotten Realms Player's Guide". Though I stand corrected and does make me feel slightly better, but it can also be as a sign of the role that FR has been cast in $e. |
Edited by - ksu_bond on 14 Oct 2008 16:34:15 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 17:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Any of the future FR articles that designers intend to produce for DDi can potentially build upon earlier introduced Realmslore tidbits.
Yes, but they are going to be tied to the post-Spellplague Realms. Which makes them useless for those who don't use the post-Spellplague Realms.
For me the worst thing that the 4e FR has done is split the Realms irrevocably. Those who are using the post-Spellplague Reamls can try and make use of any new titbits that WotC publish. Those who don't, can't! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2008 : 18:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
That's the problem exactly... the people in charge are looking for newer, younger gamers to bring into the fold... because young people spend money frivously. Adults who've been playing in the beloved world of Toril have been getting older, must divide their money between "fun things" and paying bills like car payments, mortgages, (home/life/auto) insurance, and any number of other things... they're likely to budget better and buy less. Not to mention that they will likely die sooner than newer, younger gamers.
Come on, now, that last assertion was a bit of a stretch, I think. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of "old" D&D fans aren't necessarily in the twilight of their lives yet. It's the 21st century and being, say, 45 years old is hardly "on the brink of death."
Not to mention that "older" fans aren't necessarily old. I've been a fan of the Realms for the better part of a decade (which isn't that long compared to some here, I know), and I'm still in my twenties.
Also, the "older" fans probably have more brute expendible income left over after budgeting for life and bills, to out-spend the "younger gamers" anyway. Percentage wise, sure, the "younger gamers" can—and probably do—use more of their income on "fun things", but they also earn less, if they earn at all—in which case they can only spend as much as an "older" parent allows them to.
Stop thinking logically and start thinking like a marketing exec.
Of course older gamers are likely to have more income but younger gamers have fewer bills. And younger gamers will be around longer than the old ones. Getting new, younger customers into the fold with the intent to keep them for the long haul or holding onto older customers until they stop spending frivolously on games... which do you think a business executive is likely to consider his target audience.
Assuming that older gamers will play into their retirement, let's just stop at age 65. From a business standpoint, would you want to appeal to the 12 to 20 year olds or the 20 to 40 year olds? If your advertising can "hook" an even number of customers from either group, which would you want? Smart money is the customers who will be the group which will be around 20 years longer on average... of course, this doesn't take into account that the older gamers have already been loyal customers for that long nor is there any guarantee that new younger gamers will stay around for that long. But if they cater specifically to the older generation, then they're going to risk losing some of that younger generation income and may not be able to draw them in later... whereas changing the focus to the younger target audience will likely push away some of your existing older customers, some will stay and you broaden your potential with a fresh crop of consumers.
The trick is not looking at the product itself and how individuals feel about it. Marketing wants to appeal to the widest audience possible and focus on those that will remain customers the longest. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
Edited by - Nerfed2Hell on 14 Oct 2008 18:11:50 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 00:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
But lets face it: If Ed would openly say that he hates the new Realms (*1) and wont have anything more to do with it that would be a publicity nightmare for the company and maybe enough for them to change it.
We all know he's too classy to do something like that.
quote:
The question is: When is the damage done to the Forgotten Realms big enough so it cant be salvaged anymore?
For me, the official Realms has already reached that point, so I'm content (partly because I want to be, partly because I have to be) to focus on developing my own Realms to suit my own tastes.
Re: Pandora: I agree with Rinona there, on all counts. My Realms diverged from the canon plotline in minor ways some time ago, as I've mentioned in other scrolls, and in major ways pre-Spellplague in RT; we're already post-1390, and there was no Spellplague. Even without this logistical hiccup, I would still have no desire to follow canon 4e timelines, because recent events were cheap excuses to kill off almost everyone who made the Realms a living world. I'm not just talking about four of the Seven Sisters and the Blackstaff; there's also everyone who has ever had a name attached to them in every supplement going back to the Old Grey Box. Serious role-players (which described most of the people I have gamed with in the Realms over the last 20 years) like knowing the name of the innkeeper their PCs are doing business with, and it's much easier on the DM if that name is already provided. The philosophy of 4E seems to be, "if you want detail, you make it up," which doesn't suit DMs well if DMing isn't their day job... and I don't know many people for whom it is. Seriously; unless you're Ed himself or someone with comparable creative gifts (there's no way I'll say "equal" because Tolkien is long-deceased), that's not a job you need to have as DM. I have no problem with having time for a day job and creating adventures, which Wizbro is also more than happy to do; I have a significant problem with having time for a day job and creating the minutiae of an entire world, which Wizbro now expects us to do, even though their writers are the people who get paid for doing such things.
Enough rant. I'm not buying the 4E Realms, and I'm selling my 4E core books as soon as I find a buyer in my local area, because the 4E game mechanics worked great for Star Wars and would work great for d20 Modern, but doesn't work at all for D&D. We played 4E briefly, and we agreed that it was interesting, and that it had the potential to be fun, but that it wasn't D&D and couldn't be. If Wizbro wants to get my business back, they can go back to the pre-Sellplague Realms and the 3.5 ruleset and sell us a book on Cormyr, a book on Cormanthyr, a book on the Bloodstone Lands and Impiltur, a book on the Lands of Intrigue, a book on the Hordelands, a book or two on Kara-Tur, a book on Zakhara, a book on Anchorome, a book on Katashaka, etc... and someone there had the nerve to say that everything had been explored.  Oh well. Corporate logic at its finest. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 00:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
Yes, but they are going to be tied to the post-Spellplague Realms. Which makes them useless for those who don't use the post-Spellplague Realms.
I'm not entirely sure how you can interprete that without actually knowing exactly what future post-Spellplague Realmslore will contain. Just because it's post-Spellplague, doesn't necessarily mean that it will include lore focusing exclusively on notable Spellplague-related changes. There was more to the Realms, and still is, than just the Spellplague. There's still plenty of fertile ground for future designers to expand upon that doesn't always have to touch on the Spellplague. And this, more than anything else about the "new" Realms, remains the same as it was since the days of 1e.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 01:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by arry
Yes, but they are going to be tied to the post-Spellplague Realms. Which makes them useless for those who don't use the post-Spellplague Realms.
I'm not entirely sure how you can interprete that without actually knowing exactly what future post-Spellplague Realmslore will contain. Just because it's post-Spellplague, doesn't necessarily mean that it will include lore focusing exclusively on notable Spellplague-related changes. There was more to the Realms, and still is, than just the Spellplague. There's still plenty of fertile ground for future designers to expand upon that doesn't always have to touch on the Spellplague. And this, more than anything else about the "new" Realms, remains the same as it was since the days of 1e.
Wise words, Sage... but I think that the salient point here is that the Spellplague happened at all. On that note, I have some unusually concretely-applicable metaphors that would have been excellent advice for the 4E Realms design team (all involving feet, curiously):
If we don't understand our boundaries or limitations, we have a tendency to overstep them.
If you put your foot in your mouth while shooting your mouth off, you are very likely to shoot yourself in the foot. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 12:34:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
From everything I've heard, the process of changing the Realms involved plenty of dissent.
Obviously, one would like to know who were those who dissented and who were those who pushed the Realms through and left us with what we face now. Of course, we'll never know ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 14:56:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by arry
Yes, but they are going to be tied to the post-Spellplague Realms. Which makes them useless for those who don't use the post-Spellplague Realms.
I'm not entirely sure how you can interprete that without actually knowing exactly what future post-Spellplague Realmslore will contain. Just because it's post-Spellplague, doesn't necessarily mean that it will include lore focusing exclusively on notable Spellplague-related changes. There was more to the Realms, and still is, than just the Spellplague. There's still plenty of fertile ground for future designers to expand upon that doesn't always have to touch on the Spellplague. And this, more than anything else about the "new" Realms, remains the same as it was since the days of 1e.
In my opinion everyone and everything has been either influenced or affected by the Spellplague and the 100 year jump in one way or another. Even those NPCs who are still alive are not the same people they would have been if they had not lived through the Spellplague. The geography has changed, many groups have changed or disappeared, the Netherese have reappeared, Thay is a forest, part of the Sea of Fallen Stars has drained away, a new continent is here, Halruaa has exploded, most of the mages went insane, Mystra is dead and so are many other gods.
Can you Sage, tell me anything or anyone that has not been changed or influenced in some way by the Spellplague, the century jump and the geographic changes? I'd be interested to know. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 15:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
Can you Sage, tell me anything or anyone that has not been changed or influenced in some way by the Spellplague, the century jump and the geographic changes? I'd be interested to know.
Well, I don't think you're not being entirely fair here. All Realmslore progresses as the years [in game time] go by, regardless of whether it's just the year-to-year progression of previous editions, or anything like the 104-year time-jump of 4e. So, at least from the way I see it, utilising this as a basis for claiming changes in 4e is not entirely accurate. Nor is your reasoning behind geographic changes which have, again, been a part of the development of the Realms since the publication of the Ol' Grey Box. The Realms and the lore associated with it change a little every time a new product is released.
As for Realms aspects not affected by the Spellplague, well, one immediately springs to mind. I seem to recall the Forest of Lethyr remaining pretty much as it was in previous editions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 17:50:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Stop thinking logically and start thinking like a marketing exec.
I still think the statement I called you out on was grasping at straws, at best (even from the standpoint of a marketing executive). The vast majority of consumers in this hobby are relatively young (and as I said before, 40 years old is young in this day and age), so I think any arguments about "older" consumers literally "dying off" are, well, on the silly side.
Aside from that point, though, I can see where you are coming from. I'm just saying (more or less) that you don't need to defend a sound opinion with a silly argument. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 17:54:52 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:01:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
From everything I've heard, the process of changing the Realms involved plenty of dissent.
Obviously, one would like to know who were those who dissented and who were those who pushed the Realms through and left us with what we face now. Of course, we'll never know ...
Well, as I mentioned before, Rich Baker has claimed (in a state of defensiveness at criticism leveled at him, I recall) that he "fought battles" that we'll never know about. That's pretty vague, yes, but it does suggest that the changes to the Realms weren't always his ideas and he most likely didn't always agree with them. I also get this impression from reading his comments in his Q&A thread on the WotC boards.
We know Ed Greenwood has said the Spellplague (among other things) wasn't his idea.
On the other hand, Bruce Cordell has stated directly (in that recent Dragon article) that he was one of the early propenents of the Spellplague.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, I don't think you're not being entirely fair here. All Realmslore progresses as the years [in game time] go by, regardless of whether it's just the year-to-year progression of previous editions, or anything like the 104-year time-jump of 4e. So, at least from the way I see it, utilising this as a basis for claiming changes in 4e is not entirely accurate. Nor is your reasoning behind geographic changes which have, again, been a part of the development of the Realms since the publication of the Ol' Grey Box. The Realms and the lore associated with it change a little every time a new product is released.
With all due respect, Sage, I think the point being made here is that the changes in question are far more extensive than they have been in the past, mainly because the agents of the changes are pretty major--the Spellplague, and the passage of about 100 years as opposed to only a couple of years. The Realms have always been changing, yes, but there's no denying that these particular changes are much different in scale, overall, than those of the past.*
I would agree that there are areas of the Realms that feel about the same as they did in the old products. However, it's probably easier to pick out which areas didn't change than the ones that did--that is, at the moment they appear to be few and far in between. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, as whether or not that's good or bad is just a matter of opinion.
*Just for clarity, I'm talking about changes to the Realms since it was a published setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 18:23:55 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 18:42:20
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Yes Rinonalyrna Fathomlin, that's exactly what I mean.
Thank you Sage, I can take on board any information on the Forest of Lethyr without a problem. Mind you, I still think that any communities within the Forest of Lethyr (with or without mages) would still have to have changed due to changing patterns of trade etc.
Can anyone tell me of other areas that haven't changed? |
Edited by - arry on 15 Oct 2008 18:44:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:49:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
With all due respect, Sage, I think the point being made here is that the changes in question are far more extensive than they have been in the past, mainly because the agents of the changes are pretty major--the Spellplague, and the passage of about 100 years as opposed to only a couple of years. The Realms have always been changing, yes, but there's no denying that these particular changes are much different in scale, overall, than those of the past.*
I'm still not so sure I can agree with that. When you consider most of the setting changes and overall "new" Realmslore that has been generated across the Realms due to the combined impact of all the RSEs ever detailed, one could argue that we've already been experiencing a "Spellplague"-level change in the Realms since the Time of Troubles. The only real difference, is that the RSE changes were spread over a much longer time frame of development. The Spellplague, and all it's associated changes, occured through the publication of one particular source.
quote:
I would agree that there are areas of the Realms that feel about the same as they did in the old products. However, it's probably easier to pick out which areas didn't change than the ones that did--that is, at the moment they appear to be few and far in between. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, as whether or not that's good or bad is just a matter of opinion.
Again, I can't quite agree. The FRCG only provides a sampling of the 4e Realms. There's still plenty that's been left unmentioned since the earlier days of 1e, 2e, and 3e. What you're claiming here is, to me at least, and at this time, a position that's kinda difficult to support since we still have only the barest amount of information on the 4e Realms. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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