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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 03:04:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And we should all know the One Absolute Rule of Candlekeep by now. Right? 
Something about a land war in Kara-Tur?
Not quite.
Taken from the entry for Candlekeep in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast [pg. 33]:- "Candlekeep has but one absolute rule: 'Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed.' Here, books are more valuable than people."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 04:07:43
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I saw Fahreinheit 451 in HS, and I still have nightmares about it.
It has taken me years just to get up the nerve to use a highliter. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 04:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I saw Fahreinheit 451 in HS, and I still have nightmares about it.
It has taken me years just to get up the nerve to use a highliter.
Yeah. I still can't use highliters on books that I've purchased new or in "like new" condition. 
Still, I thought I had a pretty good approximation of the One Absolute Rule, particularly in my follow-up.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 10 Oct 2008 04:35:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 06:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And we should all know the One Absolute Rule of Candlekeep by now. Right?
Something about a land war in Kara-Tur?
Not quite.
Taken from the entry for Candlekeep in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast [pg. 33]:- "Candlekeep has but one absolute rule: 'Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed.' Here, books are more valuable than people."
I thought that the One Absolute Rule was to keep the keys to the Calishite Dancing Girls' quarters secure... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 07:46:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I thought that the One Absolute Rule was to keep the keys to the Calishite Dancing Girls' quarters secure...
Ah! That's why the scroll containing the rare Copy Key spell has been so popular of late around here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 02:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Taken from the entry for Candlekeep in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast [pg. 33]:- "Candlekeep has but one absolute rule: 'Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed.' Here, books are more valuable than people."
Would it be acceptable to erase knowledge by magic? As in, "I wish the lead in to 4e section of GHotR never existed." |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 03:58:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Taken from the entry for Candlekeep in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast [pg. 33]:- "Candlekeep has but one absolute rule: 'Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed.' Here, books are more valuable than people."
Would it be acceptable to erase knowledge by magic? As in, "I wish the lead in to 4e section of GHotR never existed."
Knowledge, for good or ill, once learned, may never be unlearned. Hence the reason we have a fondness for apples and aren't cavorting in a paradise of ignorance.
Even if one could cast that spell, they would still know of the details, even if no-one else did. And that would drive them either to paradox, madness, trying to undo what they did, or a mixture of all three.
But, if you're willing to take the bullet, please do!  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 06:21:41
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| If I could make everyone forget but would alone be burdened with carrying knowledge of the the whole fiasco, I would take the hit for the team. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 07:25:36
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Okay, since I was kinda responsible for this latest off-topic romp, I think it only appropriate that I ask that we once again return to the topic of this scroll.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:20:27
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| Back on topic then... I wish I could make everyone forget the 4e nonsense leading up to the the Feedback thread. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 00:11:30
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| Them Wizards on the Coast keeping pushing it though. Which is so annoying. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 00:43:51
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The worst thing, I think, about the Shattered Realms is, to put it bluntly, its existence.
I mean, if WoTC had declared that they weren't going to publish anymore about the Realms, I'm certain we'd all have been upset. But we'd have gotten over it. We'd have had our memories, we can chat about the good old days.
However, after killing the Realms, WoTC brought it back as a mockery of what was once a great setting. Everytime they have a new article, its a reminder of what they did. Brian comes here and asks us if we want to see the fates of some of our favourite NPC's. Quite aside from how morbid that sounds, given that practically all of them are now dead, what Brian should be asking is if we want to see more stories about those characters. Which of course, I think many here would.
I know fully well that Brian knows what we want. It'd be nice if he, at the very least, passed on our wishes regarding the Realms to his paymasters. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 01:01:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I know fully well that Brian knows what we want. It'd be nice if he, at the very least, passed on our wishes regarding the Realms to his paymasters.
Let's be fair to Brian. He can only suggest so much. I'm appreciative for most of the efforts on his part to ensure that some of the lingering aspects of Realmslore receive the attention they deserve in 4e.
But, in the end, he can only work within the parameters established by WotC. And as we know from the comments made by other designers here at Candlekeep, sometimes what they "want" to write about, and what is actually "written" into the final product, can be two completely different things. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Oct 2008 01:02:22 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 01:58:59
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Well, on the bright side, the economy is in the crapper and Ha$bro may drop D&D and FR altogether as an unprofitable venture. Lets face it, with the rising cost of fuel (and winter on the way), disposable income is going to be very severely limited... and what do you think the kids are going to choose first --DDi subscription and an occasional new sourcebook or maintain their Xbox 360 Live and WoW subscriptions?
Without the big backing, this ugly sham being called the Forgotten Realms can be put to rest and the fans can enjoy years to come of exploring the well-detailed world and truckload of books we've already purchased. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 08:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Well, on the bright side, the economy is in the crapper and Ha$bro may drop D&D and FR altogether as an unprofitable venture. Lets face it, with the rising cost of fuel (and winter on the way), disposable income is going to be very severely limited... and what do you think the kids are going to choose first --DDi subscription and an occasional new sourcebook or maintain their Xbox 360 Live and WoW subscriptions?
Without the big backing, this ugly sham being called the Forgotten Realms can be put to rest and the fans can enjoy years to come of exploring the well-detailed world and truckload of books we've already purchased.
Now this is one prediction I can happily agree with. I just hope that Ha$bro takes the profitable way out and sells the D&D and FR brands to a company that cares... the question is, would that company be Paizo? Particularly given the concerns about the economy? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 17:40:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I know fully well that Brian knows what we want. It'd be nice if he, at the very least, passed on our wishes regarding the Realms to his paymasters.
Let's be fair to Brian. He can only suggest so much. I'm appreciative for most of the efforts on his part to ensure that some of the lingering aspects of Realmslore receive the attention they deserve in 4e.
But, in the end, he can only work within the parameters established by WotC. And as we know from the comments made by other designers here at Candlekeep, sometimes what they "want" to write about, and what is actually "written" into the final product, can be two completely different things.
Well isnt it time some of them stood up and said "I dont believe in this, so I wont help you publish it"? I know its really not easy to quit a job, but that might give a sign to the people ultimately in charge of the decisions. Everyone who helps is ultimately sharing part of "the blame" which the product gets from dissatisfied customers - and I think we know that there are quite a lot on the part of 4e FR. The problem is that the people "in charge" take comfort in the new customers they get - if there are sufficient numbers of them - and dont much care about the old ones. These people only care about the numbers and not the "lives they ruin". In this case its not so much lives, but rather fun that gets ruined but the same way of acting / thinking goes through many of our managers. The respectable and successful Deutsche Bank turned a record profit a few years back and still the boss decided to make 5000 people redundant so he could make MORE profit. Its the same tender loving care we and the Forgotten Realms are getting atm - at least that is what it seems like when youre exaggerating it a bit. Refining art with a sledgehammer was never a good tactic and whatever was done reminds me of what Gimli said in the Lord of the Rings concerning the glittering caves at Helms Deep: quote:
No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin's race would mine those caves for stone or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there. Do you cut down groves of blossoming trees in the spring-time for firewood? We would tend these glades of flowering stone, not quarry them. With cautious skill, tap by tap - a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day - so we could work, and as the years went by, we should open new ways, and display far chambers that are still dark, glimpsed only as a void between fissures in the rock. And lights, Legolas! We should make lights, such lamps as once shone in Khâzad-dûm; and when we wished we would drive away the night that has lain there since the hills were made; and when we desired rest, we would let the night return.(*1)
Needless to say that I think we got exactly the opposite - the sledgehammer and the dynamite - when looking at the treatment of the Forgotten Realms (and D&D). I cant stop wishing for a treatment like Gimli suggested, but then companies have to stop treating it as "just another product" and start treating it as "art to be respected".
Quitting a job over this isnt an easy decision, but that option is always there. So I dont really agree with "he can only suggest" as The Sage wrote. Disagreeing publically is probably not allowed by contract for employees of WotC, but unless someone says something he/she has to be considered agreeing with whatever is published with that persons name on it.
So asking us NOW what we want sounds a bit like an attempt at "damage control".
(*1) quoted from "The Lord of the Rings: The two Towers"; chapter "The Road to Isengard" |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 12 Oct 2008 17:54:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 18:01:38
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So you're suggesting that rather than trying to salvage something they love, people should take a principled stand which will immediately be ignored, and in doing so, deny themselves an income?
Keep in mind that Ed himself argued against what they've done. You think people willing to overrule the setting's creator are going to pay attention to anything other than sales? It's been established that, on a corporate level, sales are all that matters. People that don't contribute to sales are going to be replaced with those who do.
So your principled stand would result in the Realms losing its few remaining voices of reason, to be replaced by people who are willing to do even more damage. I hardly think this is a desirable goal. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 18:02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I know fully well that Brian knows what we want. It'd be nice if he, at the very least, passed on our wishes regarding the Realms to his paymasters.
Let's be fair to Brian. He can only suggest so much. I'm appreciative for most of the efforts on his part to ensure that some of the lingering aspects of Realmslore receive the attention they deserve in 4e.
But, in the end, he can only work within the parameters established by WotC. And as we know from the comments made by other designers here at Candlekeep, sometimes what they "want" to write about, and what is actually "written" into the final product, can be two completely different things.
Well isnt it time some of them stood up and said "I dont believe in this, so I wont help you publish it"? I know its really not easy to quit a job, but that might give a sign to the people ultimately in charge of the decisions. Everyone who helps is ultimately sharing part of "the blame" which the product gets from dissatisfied customers - and I think we know that there are quite a lot on the part of 4e FR.
As much as I hate the 4e Realms, I just want to point out that if you're going to be pointing fingers of blame based on people not standing up to the corporate heads and refusing to take part in publishing this mess, you should start with the setting's creator, Mr. Ed Greenwood. He hasn't jumped ship because of the changes, and if the setting's owner can "sell out," why should anyone else quit their jobs over it? Of course, Ed has his reasons for staying on board... but its still pretty unfair to accuse the guys doing their jobs of not fighting to keep the old Realms intact. What we CAN blame them for is for shoddy design elements riddled with holes that make many a' traditional Realms fans cringe.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
The problem is that the people "in charge" take comfort in the new customers they get - if there are sufficient numbers of them - and dont much care about the old ones. These people only care about the numbers and not the "lives they ruin". In this case its not so much lives, but rather fun that gets ruined but the same way of acting / thinking goes through many of our managers.
That's the problem exactly... the people in charge are looking for newer, younger gamers to bring into the fold... because young people spend money frivously. Adults who've been playing in the beloved world of Toril have been getting older, must divide their money between "fun things" and paying bills like car payments, mortgages, (home/life/auto) insurance, and any number of other things... they're likely to budget better and buy less. Not to mention that they will likely die sooner than newer, younger gamers.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Quitting a job over this isnt an easy decision, but that option is always there. So I dont really agree with "he can only suggest". Disagreeing publically is probably not allowed by contract for employees of WotC, but unless someone says something he/she has to be considered agreeing with whatever is published with that persons name on it.
I'd bet there were people on the design team who did disagree with at least some of the choices made in regard to the new Realms setting. However, at the end of the day, they have to follow orders and tow the company line. Be a team player or find yourself looking for a new team next time Ha$bro decides to lay off some WotC staff, you know?
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
So asking us NOW what we want sounds a bit like an attempt at "damage control".
Its definitely damage control. They're aware of the fact that they've upset many long time fans, and they're probably trying to do everything within the power alottd to them by their Ha$bro paymasters to try and appease the disgruntled masses... but, apparently, continuing support for pre-$ellplague Forgotten Realms just isn't on the table right now. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 18:27:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So you're suggesting that rather than trying to salvage something they love, people should take a principled stand which will immediately be ignored, and in doing so, deny themselves an income?
Keep in mind that Ed himself argued against what they've done. You think people willing to overrule the setting's creator are going to pay attention to anything other than sales? It's been established that, on a corporate level, sales are all that matters. People that don't contribute to sales are going to be replaced with those who do.
So your principled stand would result in the Realms losing its few remaining voices of reason, to be replaced by people who are willing to do even more damage. I hardly think this is a desirable goal.
Do you really think publishing substandard stuff and trying to "salvage" things (which we have to filter out of the worthless mass since we get that as well with published material) is really good enough for the Realms? I really want all or nothing. If I cant have the "high quality Realms" I dont want anything and have to go back to making it up myself. Thats at least one customer lost ...
You say it yourself: Moneymakers decide and creative people are not powerful enough to overrule them, if even Ed Greenwood cant do anything against it. In the case of "art" it always should be the other way round and the creative people should have last words. But lets face it: If Ed would openly say that he hates the new Realms (*1) and wont have anything more to do with it that would be a publicity nightmare for the company and maybe enough for them to change it. If not, well I can live and play without the Forgotten Realms and 4e.
The question is: When is the damage done to the Forgotten Realms big enough so it cant be salvaged anymore? Personally I cant really think of a worse treatment like it got with the 4e rewrite. It feels like taking the "Mona Lisa" and painting her over with a thick brush and bright colors.
(*1) maybe in connection with others from the design team who feel like he does ... something about which we can only guess. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 19:23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Do you really think publishing substandard stuff and trying to "salvage" things (which we have to filter out of the worthless mass since we get that as well with published material) is really good enough for the Realms? I really want all or nothing. If I cant have the "high quality Realms" I dont want anything and have to go back to making it up myself. Thats at least one customer lost ...
More than one. You are definitely not alone in abandoning WotC and their official Realms to stay behind in 3e (or earlier) greatness. What we or anyone else think about the publishing of substandard stuff makes no difference. I, too, feel like I want it all or nothing... which is why I'm no longer their customer. At the end of the day, though, those people employed by WotC to work on the new setting need to get paid. Maybe some are hoping for a turn around, and maybe some genuinely like the new setting!
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
You say it yourself: Moneymakers decide and creative people are not powerful enough to overrule them, if even Ed Greenwood cant do anything against it. In the case of "art" it always should be the other way round and the creative people should have last words.
However, what is and what should be are all too often very different things in the real world. Its sad... but true.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
But lets face it: If Ed would openly say that he hates the new Realms (*1) and wont have anything more to do with it that would be a publicity nightmare for the company and maybe enough for them to change it. If not, well I can live and play without the Forgotten Realms and 4e.
Who's to say Ed does hate the new Realms? He's already stated that what's been done to the gods aren't his gods... but that doesn't mean he hasn't looked at the new stuff for its potential. Ultimately, Ed's own personal Forgotten Realms are still his own creation and. The new stuff is merely based off of his creation, and its a chance for the creator to see something new and original grow from his work through the efforts of others. He may well have done things differently given free reign to do his own thing, but that isn't the case... and criticizing the work of others is not good professional courtesy.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
The question is: When is the damage done to the Forgotten Realms big enough so it cant be salvaged anymore? Personally I cant really think of a worse treatment like it got with the 4e rewrite. It feels like taking the "Mona Lisa" and painting her over with a thick brush and bright colors.
It will be enough when sales figures dictate such to the corporate heads at Ha$bro. If the setting doesn't do well, you won't see much invested back into it. If it tanks completely, you likely won't see anything official printed again. One can only hope.
And look it from this perspective: Right now, the economy sucks a whole lot of orc butt. Ha$bro is clearly interested only in sales. Currently, 4th edition and Forgotten Realms is selling because they're the new thing, but how long will that last? With the quality of the current setting and limited support (DDi articles only), how long do you think people will remain interested in it? Money is getting tight for everyone. World of Warcraft will always appeal more to Ha$bro's target audience, not to mention their Xbox 360 Live, Wii, and PS3 gaming "needs." I'd wager heavily that a steady stream of new video games will always trump the more limited appeal of 4th edition D&D and the current Forgotten Realms junk. Maybe it will tank after all. Its not necessarily a question of "if," but rather "when" and "what then". |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 19:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
The question is: When is the damage done to the Forgotten Realms big enough so it cant be salvaged anymore?
Artistically? I don't know. Economically? Ah, now there's the rub. Have so many old fans 'jumped ship' that 4e FR is no longer economically viable for Hasbro/WotC? Time will tell.
As a 'disgruntled mass' or should that be 'disgruntled mess' , I'm afraid I'm not appeased by what's been offered me. Nothing I've seen so far makes me want to remain a customer of WotC. |
Edited by - arry on 12 Oct 2008 19:37:40 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 19:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Right now, the economy sucks a whole lot of orc butt.
What a . . . lovely simile, put me right off my tea and cucumber sandwiches  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 21:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Do you really think publishing substandard stuff and trying to "salvage" things (which we have to filter out of the worthless mass since we get that as well with published material) is really good enough for the Realms?
I said nothing of the kind. I was just disagreeing with you that people should quit their jobs.
Me, I hate almost every single aspect of what's been done to the setting. And I've said that, more than once. But if I was a WotC staffer, and I had to decide between a pointless gesture and my paycheck, then my paycheck is going to win out. Sticking with your morals is a good thing, and quite appropriate in some circumstances. A publishing company messing up one of their IPs? Nope, not a position where staying is unjustified. As long as no one is being hurt and no laws are broken, I'm going to concentrate on keeping my family fed, clothed, and sheltered. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Oct 2008 21:51:13 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 22:47:24
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Pandora and Wooly: you both make good points.
Feeding your family is important, but so is professional integrity.
(warning: long rant follows)
Not being a team player will get you kicked out or shunned from most organization, but in the long run, the "yes men" who never oppose anything and suggest better ways to do things are going to see their carreer stagnate, and may be the first to be laid off when the economy sees a downturn. Those who, when it truly matters, stick to their guns and present informed and passionate arguments on how this, this and that could be improved, may see themselves promoted to the level where they will be in charge to implement such solutions. Trust me: I've been on both sides of the fence, and the "yes sir" all the time role takes not only a toll on you, but also reduces your ability to sleep at night or look at yourself in the mirror... with or without kids who need to be fed...
Paizo is a prime example of a team that works. They do not stifle their employees' creativity out of fear of NDAs, lawsuits, hidden clauses arching from the 80's and whatever... When you read an online interview with one of their staff, the answers are candid, and some designers will say "I would have done X, but Paizo management told me to do Y, because of C" This provides clear explanations to the readers/fans. Providing all the facts one knows about a situation or event one is interviewed about is the professional way to do things. Telling the truth is important. Most people nowadays are ok with "saying nothing" to interviewers or to the press when asked uncomfortable or complicated questions; while this is not strictly lying, it falls close to it, and certainly qualifies as "not being candid" with the fans. Heck, omitting stuff when being interviewed, IMHO, is akin to misleading the fans or misrepresenting a product, which is a serious offense over here in Canada (I'm not sure if certain other cultures around the world have moved into accepting that being screwed by the big corporations is a given, but even so, it is certainly not ethical or even perhaps legal to do so) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 23:21:38
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| We don't know, though, that anyone has been a yes man, or that WotC is stifling anyone's creativity. All that we know for certain is that at least a couple of people have opposed the Sellplague, but, for their own reasons, not bailed on the setting. Anything beyond that is speculation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 01:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Well isnt it time some of them stood up and said "I dont believe in this, so I wont help you publish it"? I know its really not easy to quit a job, but that might give a sign to the people ultimately in charge of the decisions.
No. Because if dedicated scribes like Brian aren't working with the Realms, then opportunities to slip in forgotten lore are more than likely going to be lost.
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Everyone who helps is ultimately sharing part of "the blame" which the product gets from dissatisfied customers - and I think we know that there are quite a lot on the part of 4e FR.
That's hardly fair. You're assuming that ALL of the designers/writers with the 4e Realms are happy with ALL the changes that have been made. And, clearly, when judging from some of the comments made by a number of designers here, that's not always the case.
Instead, these designers take the approach that working with the 4e Realms provides them with possibilities for tinkering with Realmslore aspects that have been missed between the edition change-over.
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The problem is that the people "in charge" take comfort in the new customers they get - if there are sufficient numbers of them - and dont much care about the old ones. These people only care about the numbers and not the "lives they ruin".
Again, that isn't fair. And hardly true. We know Ed cares, and Brian too. And despite how some scribes may tend to describe them, I do believe that both Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell keep on eye on the extensive and highly diversified* [*always important to remember] Realms fan community.
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Quitting a job over this isnt an easy decision, but that option is always there. So I dont really agree with "he can only suggest" as The Sage wrote.
Except for the fact that this is what some designers have told us. So, you can disagree with me all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is, this is what happens in the world of D&D game design -- sometimes, what you want to write doesn't always equal what ends up in the final product.
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Disagreeing publically is probably not allowed by contract for employees of WotC, but unless someone says something he/she has to be considered agreeing with whatever is published with that persons name on it.
Errr... Ed's "disagreed" publically, here at Candlekeep, about some of the aspects of the published Realms from time to time. As have a few other designers.
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So asking us NOW what we want sounds a bit like an attempt at "damage control".
Or it could simply be that some designers, like Brian, intend to show that they still have the interests and concerns of ALL Realms fans, in mind. And that they are working towards making them feel more involved in the Realms design process. And, for that at least, I'm thankful. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 03:46:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We don't know, though, that anyone has been a yes man, or that WotC is stifling anyone's creativity. All that we know for certain is that at least a couple of people have opposed the Sellplague, but, for their own reasons, not bailed on the setting. Anything beyond that is speculation.
You don't know that WotC is stifling anyone's creativity?
Look, this is not a trial Wooly. If you want Exhibit A, I don't have it. But one can certainly read the signs, especially throughout Ed's answers here at the keep. If you honestly think that Ed hasn't been stifled, in his own Realms, in the last little while, then we'll have to agree to disagree on a lot of issues here, especially 4$ Realmz (by the way, 5$ Realmz is going to be a card game I hear... a subset of Magic the Gathering, called Magic the Gathering, Drizzt King of Faerun Edition...) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 06:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We don't know, though, that anyone has been a yes man, or that WotC is stifling anyone's creativity. All that we know for certain is that at least a couple of people have opposed the Sellplague, but, for their own reasons, not bailed on the setting. Anything beyond that is speculation.
You don't know that WotC is stifling anyone's creativity?
Okay, you're right. I'll concede that point. I will not concede, however, the implication that it's being done arbitrarily. I'll also point out that in your statement, you bash WotC for stifling creativity, and then reference Paizo doing the same thing. Maybe not for the same reasons, but any time an author/designer doesn't get to do what they want due to orders from above, then some creativity is stifled.
However, as some of our own scribes have proven, being told you can't go in one direction is not being told you can't go in any direction. Sometimes being forced to work within (or around) specified limits can create new heights of creativity.
So I remain unconvinced that WotC is being a big bad evil company by stifling creativity. Not letting everyone hare off in any direction, willy-nilly, does not strike me as all that bad. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Oct 2008 06:44:54 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 06:52:47
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Awright, good points all around...
...but sometimes, I can't help thinking, "It's like there's two Woolies: one less wooly Wooly, and one furiously wooly Wooly, who comes out of his wheel out of breath demanding some FR Designer blood as refreshment."
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2008 : 08:16:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
No. Because if dedicated scribes like Brian aren't working with the Realms, then opportunities to slip in forgotten lore are more than likely going to be lost.
Instead, these designers take the approach that working with the 4e Realms provides them with possibilities for tinkering with Realmslore aspects that have been missed between the edition change-over.
So we have to be thankful to "dedicated scribes" like Brian for the tidbits of lore they manage to "slip in" every now an then into a Realms that has no resemblance at all to what has come before (or said in another way, no resemblance to the tidbits they are trying to slip in). Rubbish, says I!
Their creativity would be much better served, and indeed the mighty paycheck better earned, by creating rather than patching up. That is not dedication, but rather foolhardiness. Are we all really going to remember how valiantly Brian (and others) went down with the ship? I'm a little too cynical about human nature to believe that. |
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