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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 04:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Stop thinking logically and start thinking like a marketing exec.
I still think the statement I called you out on was grasping at straws, at best (even from the standpoint of a marketing executive). The vast majority of consumers in this hobby are relatively young (and as I said before, 40 years old is young in this day and age), so I think any arguments about "older" consumers literally "dying off" are, well, on the silly side.
Aside from that point, though, I can see where you are coming from. I'm just saying (more or less) that you don't need to defend a sound opinion with a silly argument.
Not a silly argument --a slightly exagerated one. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 08:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
For me, the official Realms has already reached that point, so I'm content (partly because I want to be, partly because I have to be) to focus on developing my own Realms to suit my own tastes.
Re: Pandora: I agree with Rinona there, on all counts. My Realms diverged from the canon plotline in minor ways some time ago, as I've mentioned in other scrolls, and in major ways pre-Spellplague in RT; we're already post-1390, and there was no Spellplague.
I fully agree with you as well, but the real danger is that "we" - as fans of Forgotten Realms - will be drifting apart from each other because we all are developing our own version of the Realms. In 3rd edition it wasnt really necessary to fuss much with the setting because you had a lot of different areas to choose from. In 4e the choices have been reduced A LOT: a lot of Gods and alignments are GONE, several cultures have radically changed because they are "streamlined" and got a new label and a lot of land simply vanished. The basic rules in 4e are even going so far as to dictate the "role" of your class ... striker, defender, ... whereas in 3rd edition you could play a nuking Wizard or a manipulating one, a healing Cleric or a melee madman. So ultimately this is the huge dilemma we are facing now: The Forgotten Realms community is drifting apart because everyone is forced to adapt their own.
On the topic of "new lore sneaked in": With the "good lore" also comes "bad lore" and sadly not everyone has the background knowledge to know which is which. So all the new campaigns out there that are based upon new lore will be further from "the truth". Its kinda like reading the story of Hercules in a decent book compared to watching a "Disneys Hercules" cartoon (or even the stupid Kevin-Sorbo-Hercules-series). Sure there may be some lore in it (the names of gods and their portfolios, enmities and so on), but all in all they misuse the whole story and more or less rape it. All those silly adaptations are really hurting the stories themselves, because they are introducing elements that arent really true. Hercules never was an idiot who had a little devil-pig as an assistant. These stories were meant to TEACH something - hard work will be rewarded in the case of Hercules - but the cartoons or silly series are simply there "for the moment of fun". In a generation or two the kids may even come to think there really was a Xena in greek mythology and that the throwing disc was a real weapon. The only way to prevent this from happening is to have your kids NOT watch these series and I will try my best to do so with my two nieces who will come to live here soon. Forgotten Realms and the 4e version of it is the same for me and I sincerely hope there arent too many of these misguided campaigns. As I always say: You can sell dung if you advertise it right. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 16 Oct 2008 08:30:20 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 11:08:10
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| I think Sage we will just have to agree to disagree. Our mind sets are too far apart, which makes continued discussion on this subject utterly futile. |
Edited by - arry on 16 Oct 2008 11:10:02 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 11:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I fully agree with you as well, but the real danger is that "we" - as fans of Forgotten Realms - will be drifting apart from each other because we all are developing our own version of the Realms.
I agree. It's sad but there it is. As a shared world I'm afraid the FR is no more.  |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 13:40:17
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Well, it's still being shared, but much like Tolkien book enthusiasts vs. the movie enthusiasts, there will be some gaps. I love both the books and the movies, but I know people that only like one or the other.
As for Pandora's Hercules tangent, I have to disagree slightly. Although the Disney Hercules and Raimi's Hercules were different from the old legend, they told it in a different way to garner new interest. Both still had an overall 'moral' to their stories, even if they weren't the same as the original. Not to mention that there are more than a couple versions of the original Heracles/Hercules stories...
All in all, it comes down to what you like and if it works for you to tell your story. I'm big on sticking to canon (at least until 4th edition), but my favorite game set in the Realms was run by my friend that had demon/aliens 'invading' Toril and slowly destroying the world. Heck, he killed off Khelban 3 years before Steven did! (no offense, Steven. I loved Blackstaff) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 16 Oct 2008 13:42:21 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 14:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
I think Sage we will just have to agree to disagree. Our mind sets are too far apart, which makes continued discussion on this subject utterly futile.
Fair enough.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Oct 2008 14:32:21 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 15:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Again, I can't quite agree. The FRCG only provides a sampling of the 4e Realms. There's still plenty that's been left unmentioned since the earlier days of 1e, 2e, and 3e. What you're claiming here is, to me at least, and at this time, a position that's kinda difficult to support since we still have only the barest amount of information on the 4e Realms.
I'm pretty content to agree to disagree about this, like arry.
However, I don't think my position is difficult to support because a campaign setting guide is supposed to be (to my knowledge) representative of the setting as a whole, even if what's in the book is selective rather than exhaustive. The FRCG is supposed to be the guide to the setting (not just one particular guide to a selected area of the Realms), and while overall it's not much information, it's almost all we have to go on. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Oct 2008 15:57:34 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:48:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
However, I don't think my position is difficult to support because a campaign setting guide is supposed to be (to my knowledge) representative of the setting as a whole, even if what's in the book is selective rather than exhaustive. The FRCG is supposed to be the guide to the setting (not just one particular guide to a selected area of the Realms), and while overall it's not much information, it's almost all we have to go on.
For the moment. We still don't know what's going to be included as part of the Realms features for the DDi. That suggests, to me at least, that WotC intend the FRCG to serve, mainly, as an introduction to the 4e Realms, presenting only brief amounts of information on a variety of setting aspects. As I see it, the FRCG is focused on getting players and DMs interested/started in the post-Spellplague period, with new [and expanded] material to potentially follow through online support.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Oct 2008 16:49:50 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:50:45
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Now, having said that, I can see that we're all likely to continue going round and round on this. So, rather than frustrate matters further, I think I'll just leave it at that, and quietly remove myself from this discussion.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Oct 2008 16:52:59 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 23:32:02
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Just a thought... Wooly is quoted from the original Feedback scroll, but I made the post here to be responsible (and, likely, ignored by the people who need to see it).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And for better or worse, WotC is not, at this time, going to undo what they've done to the setting. Asking or demanding that they do so is not constructive, and is a good way to be ignored by the designers.
Apparently, anything we say that's contrary to the designers' existing plans is a good way to be ignored. That's not asking for feedback; that's asking for validation and acclamation. I refuse to give either of those things to the people responsible for the death of Mystra and everything following from that, not to mention the 100-year time jump. All the latter does is make it impossible for existing campaigns to carry forward in the new edition. They say "use a time portal," apparently forgetting that their own $ellplague bollixed up 99% of the portals in Faerun. Sure, you can *enter* the portal... but what happens when you try to exit in the $ellplagued, portal-bollixed future? My answer is: You die, just like 90% of the high-level NPCs in the Realms died before, during, or as a result of the $ellplague. Hence, the fate of the world rests on the shoulders of Elminster, Drizzt, Dove, Storm, and the Simbul until we get some *new* high-level PCs (because we don't want any more high-level NPCs now, do we?). Given the time that took to happen even in 3E, if anything in the way of an RSE comes along in the next 3-5 years of Realms time, Toril has greatly diminished defenses. So greatly diminished, in fact, that intervention from Ao may be required... in which case, why the $*%&@#! didn't he do something the last time around? Either way, Wizbro has set themselves up for either complete and total annihilation of Toril or a bigger retcon than Abeir. Hence my less-than-recent scroll about the $ellplague here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11596. It's either total annihilation, massive retcon, or no more RSE's... and we know how likely the latter is. Without RSE's, novels don't sell. [We need a $ smiley!]
Anyway, I've said some of this stuff before, and others have probably said the rest of it somewhere. I've tried to post constructive criticism on the main feedback thread, but nothing can possibly be constructive of the Realms if it's built on the $ellplague.  [/rant] |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 14:41:46
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quote:
Just a thought... Wooly is quoted from the original Feedback scroll, but I made the post here to be responsible (and, likely, ignored by the people who need to see it).
That is indeed one problem with segrettating dissent into its own thread like this. Though I'm sure that the WoTC designers know how we feel.
One would hope that they actually pay heed to the feedback they've gotten, but I doubt it. They've not done it before, after all. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 17:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
One would hope that they actually pay heed to the feedback they've gotten, but I doubt it. They've not done it before, after all.
The "dilemma" of feedback is that they are probably getting feedback requesting for everything to be published. Thats only to be expected with such a popular setting and every corner of the Realms having its dedicated fans. So how are they judging one request more valuable than another for the "points of light"? They cant do that and I guess the amount of feedback (even if you reduce it only to constructive stuff) is simply too big to really work with it. Basically this means they are back where they started and the whole "We are asking you for help" thing simply becomes a publicity stunt to make them look like they cared. The designers probably have known before that the whole "points of light" tactic wouldnt sit well with fans who want to have everything detailed. [Logic behind asking for everything: There is nothing bad about an area being detailed fully, because it can always change later with new historic events, right?]
Since our feedback will NOT make the Spellplague go away or any other drastic changes to what we have been forced see all "discussion" more or less results in winding yourself up or (if youre lucky) venting your anger ... if youre not satisfied with what we are getting. That is all pro/contra 4e discussions will do. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 18:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Since our feedback will NOT make the Spellplague go away or any other drastic changes to what we have been forced [to] see, all "discussion" more or less results in winding yourself up or (if youre lucky) venting your anger ... if youre not satisfied with what we are getting. That is all pro/contra 4e discussions will do.
True. And my vitriol is starting to exhaust itself, and I have some far better ideas for lore than for rants, so I'm going to focus on those for now... at least until something appears on these scrolls to get me riled up again.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 18:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Since our feedback will NOT make the Spellplague go away or any other drastic changes to what we have been forced [to] see, all "discussion" more or less results in winding yourself up or (if youre lucky) venting your anger ... if youre not satisfied with what we are getting. That is all pro/contra 4e discussions will do.
True. And my vitriol is starting to exhaust itself, and I have some far better ideas for lore than for rants, so I'm going to focus on those for now... at least until something appears on these scrolls to get me riled up again.
I'm feeling the same way. I've written off anything that's post Spellplague and 4th Edition, instead focusing on Paizo and my own campaign ideas. I find that I don't even want to argue about it anymore and just get on with the lore-seeking. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 18:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm feeling the same way. I've written off anything that's post Spellplague and 4th Edition, instead focusing on Paizo and my own campaign ideas. I find that I don't even want to argue about it anymore and just get on with the lore-seeking.
Likewise. Anything post Spellplague is now irrelevant to me. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 23:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Since our feedback will NOT make the Spellplague go away or any other drastic changes to what we have been forced [to] see, all "discussion" more or less results in winding yourself up or (if youre lucky) venting your anger ... if youre not satisfied with what we are getting. That is all pro/contra 4e discussions will do.
True. And my vitriol is starting to exhaust itself, and I have some far better ideas for lore than for rants, so I'm going to focus on those for now... at least until something appears on these scrolls to get me riled up again.
I'm feeling the same way. I've written off anything that's post Spellplague and 4th Edition, instead focusing on Paizo and my own campaign ideas. I find that I don't even want to argue about it anymore and just get on with the lore-seeking.
Which is unfortunately exactly what they want, if they can't get us to buy the three books.
Anyway, I've got to change my views slightly. WoTC have listened to feedback before in regards to the Realms. Thing is, that feedback was from ill-educated idiots who blundered onto the FR forum on WoTC and denigrated anything and everything about the Realms. Seems that the way to get what you want with the Realms is to shout as loud as possible. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 01:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
<chop>
Anyway, I've got to change my views slightly. WoTC have listened to feedback before in regards to the Realms. Thing is, that feedback was from ill-educated idiots who blundered onto the FR forum on WoTC and denigrated anything and everything about the Realms. Seems that the way to get what you want with the Realms is to shout as loud as possible.
You missed a point, Uzzy: The way to get what you want with the Realms is to shout as loud as possible and be completely incoherent in your ravings. Or so I see it.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 05:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Since our feedback will NOT make the Spellplague go away or any other drastic changes to what we have been forced [to] see, all "discussion" more or less results in winding yourself up or (if youre lucky) venting your anger ... if youre not satisfied with what we are getting. That is all pro/contra 4e discussions will do.
True. And my vitriol is starting to exhaust itself, and I have some far better ideas for lore than for rants, so I'm going to focus on those for now... at least until something appears on these scrolls to get me riled up again.
I'm feeling the same way. I've written off anything that's post Spellplague and 4th Edition, instead focusing on Paizo and my own campaign ideas. I find that I don't even want to argue about it anymore and just get on with the lore-seeking.
Ah... finally!
You are now ready, my young padawans... now come, join the Dark Side... give in to your anger, and abandon all that is the 4$ Realmz and the lies you have been fed all these months...  
He he he... I've actually fully gone to the Dark Side err.. Paizo at this point...
1. I'm an ongoing Pathfinder Adventure Path subscriber;
2. I have purchased the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, Rise of the Runelords series, Pathfinder Map Folio, etc.
3. I have joined the Pathfinder Society and played my first organized play scenario tonight... it was a hoot!
4. Elaine Cunningham, Mistress of All Siths, will write a 6-part novella within the pages of the Pathfinder Journal (a section of the ongoing Pathfinder Adventure Path series), and many flock to her dark and seductive mantle of glory every day... and Ed Greenwood Himself, Lord of All Sith, may join us all in our grand rise to power over the Whole Galaxy in due time! MUHAHAHAHAHAH!
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 19:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
4. Elaine Cunningham, Mistress of All Siths, will write a 6-part novella within the pages of the Pathfinder Journal (a section of the ongoing Pathfinder Adventure Path series), and many flock to her dark and seductive mantle of glory every day...
I am seriously thinking about subscribing for these six months if nothing else. Not that I have any problem with the Pathfinder CS, I just don't have oodles of $$ to spend on it, and I think I want to start collecting 2e Realms products first (I have all of the 3e Realms products, except for the four super adventures and Power of Faerun, the latter which I am pretty sure my best friend got me for Christmas). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 23:49:27
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| I'm in the same boat as Hawkins... "insufficient funds". I'm planning on picking up the core rules book when it comes out, and I'll be using it (or fragments thereof) with my 3E-3.5 core and supplement books and Realms 1E-2E-3E-3.5 material. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 00:01:13
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| You get 30% off each issue if you subscribe... really worth it. You save lots of money compared to the listed price... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 02:04:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Well, it's still being shared, but much like Tolkien book enthusiasts vs. the movie enthusiasts, there will be some gaps. I love both the books and the movies, but I know people that only like one or the other.
<chop>
All in all, it comes down to what you like and if it works for you to tell your story. I'm big on sticking to canon (at least until 4th edition), but my favorite game set in the Realms was run by my friend that had demon/aliens 'invading' Toril and slowly destroying the world. Heck, he killed off Khelban 3 years before Steven did! (no offense, Steven. I loved Blackstaff)
quote:
Originally posted by arry
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I fully agree with you as well, but the real danger is that "we" - as fans of Forgotten Realms - will be drifting apart from each other because we all are developing our own version of the Realms.
I agree. It's sad but there it is. As a shared world I'm afraid the FR is no more.
I suspect you're right... for the same reason that the 4E Realms got blown up in the first place. I mean, there's nothing stopping us from using the 'Keep as a roundtable to hammer out what should and shouldn't be kept in the way of recent changes... but, much like the 4E development team (including Ed and those who agreed with him), we wouldn't agree on everything, and either the project would fall apart or some of us would leave unsatisfied, and we'd be in the same leaky boat the Realms are in now, with a decidedly split design team and fan base. Mind you, that's not to say I'm not willing to try to accomplish this. As I've mentioned in this and other scrolls, my Realms have diverged significantly from canon in several areas already, but (like Ashe) I prefer sticking to canon, in part because it's less work. However, in the case of 4E, I can't do that in good conscience more than 10-20% of the way, at least as far as events between 1373 and 1385 are concerned. Things that happen post-Smellplague and have no direct relationship to it, I'm fine with keeping. I'm going to make a list and we can see how closely we are in agreement, just for fun.
In a nutshell: Things I won't allow in my "current" (1375-1385ish) Realms:
- Halaster's death (the Mad Mage is way too cool to die yet);
- Elminster's death (the Old Sage is central to the Realms in general and the Dalelands in particular);
- Khelben's death, as much as I loved Mr. Schend's book (not yet, anyway; I figure he still has another century or so left in him, and yes, I know Ashe's friend and others have killed him off already);
- the deaths of *any* of the Seven; in fact, I brought Syluné back in the Year of Wild Magic thanks to a "year name event" whose details are too complex for this already bloated posting;
- extensive geographical changes; if you want new geography, charter a ship from Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, or Calimshan and head for Anchorome or Katashaka, or set sail from somewhere in Kara-Tur if Osse is your destination. I'm sure Markustay (among others) is more than happy to provide us with maps, given some time to do so.
- the portrayal of any powerful NPCs or organizations as "Keystone Kops" or excessively interested in what the PCs are doing... except, of course, to give the PCs a new job once in a while when they (the NPCs) are too busy dealing with bigger things;
- a war between Thay and Risen Imaskar; alliance, yes; war, no.
[edit] Things I'm happy to allow in "my" Realms:
- the deaths of Drizzt, Bruenor, Regis, Catti-Brie, and Wulfgar, particularly the first one;
- the takeover of Aglarond, Thesk, the Great Dale, and Narfell by Thay; they can try to take over Rashemen, but I don't like their odds, even if The Simbul isn't around to help out. I like the idea of The Simbul not being Q of A any more too, particularly if she's shacking up with El (see below);
- the demise of the last of the Mulhorandi and Untheric powers; I'm on board with Ed in this regard; no "RL rip-offs". Kara-Tur can be made distinct enough while keeping its established Asian feel; just get rid of the Oriental pantheons;
- the unification of Amn and Tethyr, by whatever subterfuge or other means necessary (I'm working on it);
- any other ideas?
I have other plans percolating in the West in "my" Realms, one of which is the unification of Baldur's Gate and the cities of the Western Heartlands (Elturel, Scornubel, Triel, Iriaebor) into a new realm. Kingdom, merchant empire, or something else, I don't know yet, but the plans are afoot. I think something like this was done in 4E Realms, if I'm not mistaken. If so... that's a fourth thing I like about the new FR. (1st = return of Netheril; 2nd = return of Imaskar) (I didn't count "not nuking Waterdeep" or "not nuking Baldur's Gate" because those were deal-breakers for me; if either of those had happened, I wouldn't have bothered trying to salvage anything. I can always find other hobbies, but I love this one and would like it to continue.)
Anyway, this post is way too long. Hopefully it inspires others the way some of your posts have inspired me not to give up on the Realms even if I'm giving up on 4E.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 19 Oct 2008 02:19:32 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 05:49:00
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Khelben's death I can live with, because Steven did such a great job of showing how a Chosen can die for the greater good. Same with the (permanent) death of Sylune in the Shadowdale adventure. The bad guys found the loophole to get her out of the way, but it didn't finish her off completely, just diminished her power. And before she passes, she is able to give the adventurers a way to defeat the big baddies.
Also, El's not quite dead yet! And I don't know why people have a hate on for Drizzt (just like the hate for the Chosen). At least with Drizzt, he stays up north where just about no-one cares. It's not like he comes down to the Dales to fight the Zhents or anything...
Khelben dying in my friend's campaign does not translate to all the FR campaigns we're a part of, just that one story. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 07:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Khelben's death I can live with, because Steven did such a great job of showing how a Chosen can die for the greater good. Same with the (permanent) death of Sylune in the Shadowdale adventure. The bad guys found the loophole to get her out of the way, but it didn't finish her off completely, just diminished her power. And before she passes, she is able to give the adventurers a way to defeat the big baddies.
I'll agree that, just as with Tanalasta (and Azoun IV) in Death of the Dragon, Khelben and Sylune died well. The thing that really p!$$3d me off about the (permanent) death of Sylune was that her sacrifice ended up being meaningless in the grand scheme of things, because Wizbro killed Mystra and blew up the Weave anyway. Why bother going through an epic adventure trilogy (Cormyr, Shadowdale, Anauroch) and emerging victorious if all your hard work is going to be undone by Ao's superior in next week's RSE? My reasons for keeping Tanalasta, Khelben, and Sylune around are rooted in my campaign plots; I have Khelben's death preordained in my timeline, and it wasn't the way Mr. Schend depicted it (which is not to say that I found any fault with the book itself; Blackstaff was an inspired piece of writing, and probably the best Realms novel I have read in several years, but Khelben's death does not fit with my future plans for the North... or for Khelben. In my campaign, Khelben steps forward to do his part with Ualair the Silent, but Mentor Wintercloak and Orjalun hold him back and take his part together in order to preserve the numbers of Mystra's Chosen (not being Chosen of Mystra themselves, one of them would not have sufficed, IIRC), and the city of Rhymanthiir is restored.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Also, El's not quite dead yet!
True... and I suspect that El's in much better shape than he appears to be. I do worry about his mental state, though... but like Ed said, being the lover of the goddess of magic for almost a millennium would be enough to unhinge anyone at least slightly. I worry much less about him in my Realms than I do in canon 4E, where he has lost Sylune, Khelben, Laeral, Alustriel, Qilue, and (much earlier) Lhaeo. Mind you, I think that last loss affected him the most, and I haven't changed anything there. I'd still love to have a complete inventory of El's tower *before* the Sharrans blew it up. 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And I don't know why people have a hate on for Drizzt (just like the hate for the Chosen). At least with Drizzt, he stays up north where just about no-one cares. It's not like he comes down to the Dales to fight the Zhents or anything...
It might be my Norse ancestry, but I just have this lingering resentment over him stealing the spotlight from Wulfgar, who was supposed to be the main character of the series. I'll be the first to admit that I love playing dual-wielding rangers, but mine are all big, beefy humans; my current character has the Jotunbrud and Monkey Grip feats and dual-wields Large bastard swords. What do you say to an 8' tall Sossrim human barbarian/ranger with a pair of 6' swords?
Anyway, rant over... and my rants are actually quite light-hearted lately. This is good; bitterness is a lousy flavour. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 19 Oct 2008 07:21:27 |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 10:26:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And I don't know why people have a hate on for Drizzt (just like the hate for the Chosen).
A fictional character's single most interesting and memorable detail of their life is their death. Drizzt (and the Chosen, and good Ol' El, and etc...) has been alive (and in fiction) for far too long to truly continue to be interesting. He's become bland. Every time I see another "Drizzt book" at the store, I groan in protest and end up buying it in hopes that I'll finally get to read about how epic this fiction icon's death will be.
I could go on, but I'll put it more on-topic...
Feedback is utterly useless, and honestly, is probably only a feeble attempt to keep "old-fans" at bay. The designers at WizBro don't care a whit about FR followers, and here's why: It's a dead theme.
Don't get me wrong, I still love the Realms and wish there was something (anything!) someone could do to get it back on track from a D&D standpoint, but coming from a corporate pov, it won't fit into their new theme and they've already made the money they're going to make off of it as a game supplement. FR was never originally Wizards. Remember, they bought it in hopes to make money off of it. If you want to see where their focus is heading, look no further than the core books and Eberron (their own creation rather than purchase).
Honestly, considering their lack of interest in printing future FR content, the only reason we're even getting a game content update is because they're not finished selling novels about the Realms. With novel sales of a D&D world still going, D&D players will obviously want a way to continue playing in that world.
Here, if you want a more mechanical reason why this all is happening to the Realms. Put yourself in a designers shoes real quick:
The main point of 4.0 as far as I can tell is balancing every class with each other. That means every ye ol' Melee Character needs to be on-par with every Caster Character. Is that possible in 3.X or earlier? Not really. A well built level 20 Fighter is toast against a well built level 20 Wizard, with equal gold expenditure, hands down.
Now, if your goal as a designer is to make these two classes play on an even playing-field, then 4.0 is a huge success. Now, how do you apply these new mechanics to the Forgotten Realms, a world that is easily the epitome of a "high magic" world? You really can't, hence the 100 year time jump and the "spellplague" that WizBro came up with.
8+ years of ignored feedback, and now that they've destroyed everything that makes the Realms what it is, NOW they want to know what we want? Give me a break 
Sadly, I'm moving on from this whole thing. L5R is my new RPG of choice, one because it's a ton of fun (the d10 system, not the horrible d20 mockery), and two because everything about the game's canon lore is decided by the players themselves directly (or at least with their up-most consideration.) And if I want to role-play in the realms, the White Wolf d10 systems are PERFECT for role-playing, far better suited to it than any D20 system I've seen. If I want a fighter-type, I know what attributes and skills need to be increased. If I want a caster-type, Mage: The Ascension/Awakening covers just about everything.
/end rant |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 20:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And I don't know why people have a hate on for Drizzt (just like the hate for the Chosen).
A fictional character's single most interesting and memorable detail of their life is their death. Drizzt (and the Chosen, and good Ol' El, and etc...) has been alive (and in fiction) for far too long to truly continue to be interesting. He's become bland. Every time I see another "Drizzt book" at the store, I groan in protest and end up buying it in hopes that I'll finally get to read about how epic this fiction icon's death will be.
Hmmm... Let's take a look at that.
Frodo - No literary death
Bilbo - No literary death
Gandalf - No literary death
Luke Skywalker - No literary death
Han Solo - No literary death
Sherlock Holmes - No literary death
I could go on further, but I just wanted to point out that MOST memorable characters do not have a 'death scene'. Hell, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle began to HATE writing Holmes and killed him off, but the fans demanded he be brought back.
After they have killed off most of the Chosen and you hear the uproar, do you HONESTLY think that Drizzt will die? He is THE most popular character in the Realms. Maybe not the most liked, but considering that RAS Drizzt books are on the NYT Bestsellers list (the latest is #3), that implies that there are a lot of non-gamers that would scream loud and hard if he was killed off to appease those that don't like him.
And, if you really don't like him that much, then (I know, it's a crazy idea) don't buy the books! This is the thing I don't get, I understand you don't like him and that there's a number of people that don't, but why would you buy books hoping he's going to get killed? I can guarantee he's not going to die in the next one, either... wanna preorder? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 01:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
A fictional character's single most interesting and memorable detail of their life is their death.
I don't agree with that. Case in point--sometimes characters die a natural death in their beds (ie. Filfaeril, and probably Alustriel). I fail to see how that would qualify as being the most interesting and memorable detail about such a character.
I also agree with Ashe--we don't always need to read about the deaths of characters we like. I think the Drizzt story arc has become long in the tooth, but that doesn't mean I'm itching for a novel that shows us the cessation of Drizzt's life; rather, I'd prefer that the novel series just ended.*
*Note that I'm a realist and I don't actually expect that to happen, as the character brings in a lot of money. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Oct 2008 02:01:53 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 03:43:19
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I'm going to try to make this one of my final posts on the whole $mellplague Realms issue. I found some quotes in other scrolls that say what I'm trying to say rather nicely:
quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
Just to flog the dead horse a bit more…
It has occurred to me that Paramount updated the Star Trek Universe by 80 years without all saying the Federation had been conquered or all having most of the interesting planets bombed into asteroids.
Why isn’t the WotC update of FR handled as deftly?
quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdGunn
Oooh.... there's a new product WotC should put out! Just in time for the holidays those plastic "gummy" wristbands in three delectiable versions...
1) WWCD- What Would Cyric Do?
2) WWBD- What Would Bane Do?
3) WWYP4- What Would You Pay For...?
Ta-dah!
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Thankfully, logic has no place in 4th edition development . . .
And apparently, even some people on the Wizards boards are expressing dissent and... managing to get away with it. 
quote:
Originally Posted by Iakhovas
The Forgotten Realms design team is seeking your feedback. ...
So what say you? What mysteries would you like to see addressed?
I'm quite serious about this: I'd like to see a DDI mini-series with an adventure path that allows someone to reverse all of the damage that has been done. Perhaps one in which players can travel back in time and prevent the events that lead up to Mystra's murder by Cyric. Perhaps the final adventure can be an epic level confrontation with Cyric and/or Shar where they can literally stop the landslide before it begins.
Then allow for the existence of two separate timelines, so it can appeal to those who liked the Realms for what they were AND those who like post-apocalyptic settings. If you can only afford support of one timeline, see which one the players like better, and support that one.
It's a serious suggestion, please treat it as such.
The sad thing about that final suggestion is, it's both entirely reasonable (and has been discussed on this board before) and (because of being reasonable) will never see the light of day. Largely because Wizbro knows that the people who want it are also (for the most part) people who will never subscribe to DDi as long as it doesn't offer pre-$mellplague material (primarily lore). |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 20 Oct 2008 03:46:39 |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 04:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Hmmm... Let's take a look at that.
Frodo - No literary death
Bilbo - No literary death
Gandalf - No literary death
Luke Skywalker - No literary death
Han Solo - No literary death
Sherlock Holmes - No literary death
I could go on further, but I just wanted to point out that MOST memorable characters do not have a 'death scene'. Hell, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle began to HATE writing Holmes and killed him off, but the fans demanded he be brought back.
After they have killed off most of the Chosen and you hear the uproar, do you HONESTLY think that Drizzt will die? He is THE most popular character in the Realms. Maybe not the most liked, but considering that RAS Drizzt books are on the NYT Bestsellers list (the latest is #3), that implies that there are a lot of non-gamers that would scream loud and hard if he was killed off to appease those that don't like him.
And, if you really don't like him that much, then (I know, it's a crazy idea) don't buy the books! This is the thing I don't get, I understand you don't like him and that there's a number of people that don't, but why would you buy books hoping he's going to get killed? I can guarantee he's not going to die in the next one, either... wanna preorder?
To this I say; Take a look at Wulfgar. His death was tragic, epic, and a fantastic read that really brought out the emotion of the scene in a way I won't be forgetting anytime soon. Alas, he came back to life, was emo for a while, and now he's back to being just Wulfgar. Not exciting. He's not special anymore. When he died, he was special. Not to mention, look at his heritage. Dying in combat is incredibly honorable. Dying of old age is sort of pathetic.
Frodo - Immune to death (if he died, world would have ended)
Bilbo - Important tie in to the later story and all in all, only considered an extra character after The Hobbit.
Gandalf - See: Elminster
Luke Skywalker - He was filled with constant tragedy with with death of his family, his war with the Light Side/Dark Side, the loss of his hand, DARTH VADER'S ADMITTANCE OF BEING HIS FATHER, FOLLOWED BY HIS DEATH(!!!), etc. No reason for him to die. Living was bad enough to make up for it.
Han Solo - Sidekick-styled, ultimately not important enough to die.
If you want a great example of how death can make a character even more appreciated, go pick up any L5R novel, or better yet (my absolute favorite novels of all time) A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin.
I don't want to drag this any more off topic than it already is, so I'll stop here |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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