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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 18:51:19
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| I think the whole side discussion about whether or not people could do better than the current designers really misses the point, anyway. It's a red herring. Maybe someone who dislikes the changes could not to a better job as a designer than the current team. So what? Does that mean they have no grounds for any complaint whatsoever? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 18:51:46
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I'd still wait till WOTC releases the fan policy. But that's me. Of course, as I said the other day, they haven't given a date on when it's going to be released.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't think we actually came to a decision on that. Though, as I see it, so long as the OGL/GSL doesn't specifically prohibit such activities, I don't see a problem.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 18:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
To put it bluntly: how do we resolve the inherent contradictions in saying "We think you're a good author, and we enjoy your stuff, but 4e FRCS stinks, including the stuff you wrote?"
I don't think there's any contradiction there, unless one thinks that enjoying an author's work means you must like every single piece of writing they put down on paper. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Aug 2008 20:21:34 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 19:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I'm going to have to call you out on this one Kyrene as I know from firsthand experience that it's not as easy as it appears. Not by a long shot. Until you're given a true writing assignment with a short deadline, you have no idea what it's like for these designers. Hell, I typically spend half my alloted time just researching for the article before I even start writing.
Brian, of all the work on the 4E Realms that WotC has released as excerpts—or whatnots—thusfar, yours is the only bit that reflects that.
quote:
If you truly believe that you can be more creative than the WotC team, then I look forward to seeing your future submissions to Dragon Magazine or Candlkeep Compendium.
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
To put it bluntly: how do we resolve the inherent contradictions in saying "We think you're a good author, and we enjoy your stuff, but 4e FRCS stinks, including the stuff you wrote?"
StarBog put his finger right on it for me. It is not a matter of me thinking I'm more creative than someone on the WotC team. Or indeed even a matter of me being or not being as/more creative, given the same amount of paid man-hours and WotC in-house background resources like source books, etc. to deliver the project. It is a matter of it seeming like it is like that at the moment (given what has been released as a so-called showcase of the FRCS to come). We know that they, no, let me rephrase that... We have come to expect great work from that team, yet it seems that—with a couple of exceptions—they are not delivering, and have not been delivering since the changes to the Realms had first been announced.
It therefore upsets me that we are being berated or called out or told to shush when we voice our dismay at what we perceive as being unimaginative or lackluster work on a product we adore and by designers and writers we used to respect.
Anyway, I'm going to tell myself to shush now, as this has gone far enough off topic as it is.
Back to Evermeet in the 4E FRCG... |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:28:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I'm going to have to call you out on this one Kyrene as I know from firsthand experience that it's not as easy as it appears. Not by a long shot. Until you're given a true writing assignment with a short deadline, you have no idea what it's like for these designers. Hell, I typically spend half my alloted time just researching for the article before I even start writing.
If you truly believe that you can be more creative than the WotC team, then I look forward to seeing your future submissions to Dragon Magazine or Candlkeep Compendium.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
This is our hobby, yet most of us here can be more creative in a few off hours between real life commitments than the whole WotC design team over the course of how many design man-years.
They're *researching* for their articles?  I must have missed those parts they actually researched for... at least for the 4E Realms 
Maybe they should stop slapping each other's backs all day and telling each other how *AWESOME* everyone's 4E stuff is?
Seriously, I know that you and the other Lorelords take your assignments seriously, and do careful research -- all of which shows as top-notch quality. And maybe that's why the people here are so disappointed with the other articles written by WoTC staffers? Because I have to say that apart from a few exceptions, in my opinion the quality of both Dungeon and Dragon articles have dropped since WoTC canceled the print mags. At first they claimed it was due to everyone working on 4E, but since the game is now out, I wonder what is their excuse now? All I've seen is everyone claiming how *AWESOME STUFF* they have to show us, and how *EXCITED* they're about everyone's work, but the stuff I've seen hardly compares (again, in my subjective opinion) to anything Paizo is publishing at the moment.
IMO the bottom line is that editing and "quality control" is not exactly on par with what they're trying to tell us, and yet they claim how excited they're to show up at work -- apparently they don't feel overstressed with deadlines, right? I think Kyrene is right in the regard that most of us probably have seen "non-professional" DMs writing and running stuff that is better than WoTC is putting out at the moment, and those guys at WoTC *are* getting paid for it. If they feel stressed about deadlines or simply uncreative (despite their claims about "4E getting everyone's creative juices flowing in amazinf ways"), maybe WoTC should hire more staffers and/or freelancers to meet the standards in quality? Or, maybe they just haven't hired the right guys for the job? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:38:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
We have come to expect great work from that team, yet it seems that—with a couple of exceptions—they are not delivering, and have not been delivering since the changes to the Realms had first been announced.
Reading between the lines, I think that it can safely be said that the gap is nothing to do with the authors in question. Constraints and straitjackets, remember?
I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering why, with all the mud flung at 4e here (justifiably I think, but that's a whole new kettle of worms), why some of the authors (who have been involved in 4e) come back here time and time again and participate.
WR must have some photos of them all in compromising positions or something 
I guess what I'm saying is that we must remember that FR Authors are people too! |
Edited by - StarBog on 13 Aug 2008 23:43:27 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:52:00
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It seems to be more a question of the work environment and the nature of the project. The most talented writer is going to be hampered juggling all the world-building and game-design compromises of a committee-conceived setting like the new Realms, in what may be a high-pressure environment. Also, creativity per se is not straightforwardly what they want; the FRCG is clearly not a world sourcebook in the traditional sense but also, for instance, a hybrid rules supplement (as seen in the latest drow preview).
If they wanted creative, they have Ed's number. They chose to use him in a subsidiary role because they want exact control of the project's direction, and the way he designs wouldn't fit what they conceived. |
Edited by - Faraer on 14 Aug 2008 01:26:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 01:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'd still wait till WOTC releases the fan policy. But that's me. Of course, as I said the other day, they haven't given a date on when it's going to be released.
Aye.
I'll note that I was actually speaking of the time after the release of the fan policy. If nothing mentioned specifically prohibits such content, then I don't think we'll have too much problem.
But, as of now, we still have no official decision on this for the Compendium. And we likely won't until we hear what WotC has to say on this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 14:05:11
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I would pay to read articles by Mr. James as the quality is so good.* I would not pay to read the rest of the articles that I have seen.
*If Mr. James was writing about the pre-Spellplague Realms. |
Edited by - arry on 14 Aug 2008 14:09:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2008 : 15:11:33
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Brian...
YOU are proof of what he is saying.
You are not a full-time designer - you HAVE a 'day job'... and yet everyone prefers the things you wrote over the 'professionals'.
You are living proof that FANS are FAR more creative then the guys strutting around wearing said label. 
I DON'T have a day-job, unfortunately (disability), but I am a huge fan of the setting... and some LFR guys have offered me MONEY to produce FR maps of their regions because they think the FRCG ones are puke-worthy!!!
I can't do that, of course, because its illegal for me to accept money for anything containing someone else's IP. I did, however, offer to do them for FREE, because I feel really bad about the shabby maps that came with 4e.
You and George are fans FIRST Brian, and it shows. When you love what you do, it shows in any creative endeavor you undertake, but when you treat it as 'just a job', that also shows.
NEVER lose sight of what got you started, Brian - your love of FR...
Don't become them. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TwigB
Acolyte
South Africa
46 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2008 : 23:55:29
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Evermeet as a ruin filled monster isle...neat! Personally I always perceived it as untouchable, a place that held no real interest for my party, It was amazing but very Tolkein-esque. I think with Cormanthyr being reborn (I'm pretty sure it is, if I'm mistaken let me know) Evermeet just has no more place. The story and roleplaying potential here is enormous, I can imagine an elf who abandoned Evermeet in order to retake Cormanthyr, now racked with guilt over the loss of his previous homeland (kind of a reversal of fortunes)
As for the rest of the WotC exerts and articles I really like what I'm seeing so far. The realms have taken some serious knocks and gotten some interesting makeovers. I can't wait to get my hands on the new setting (Some of my party members are coming to the states for a few weeks and high on their priority list is buying the FRCS! Joy!)I've even managed to convince some old roleplayers (an ex-Dark Sun addict in particular) to dust of of their forgotten dice and get back in the game! Keep up the good work design team |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2008 : 21:26:10
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quote:
Originally posted by TwigB
Evermeet as a ruin filled monster isle...neat! Personally I always perceived it as untouchable, a place that held no real interest for my party, It was amazing but very Tolkein-esque. I think with Cormanthyr being reborn (I'm pretty sure it is, if I'm mistaken let me know) Evermeet just has no more place. The story and roleplaying potential here is enormous, I can imagine an elf who abandoned Evermeet in order to retake Cormanthyr, now racked with guilt over the loss of his previous homeland (kind of a reversal of fortunes)
As for the rest of the WotC exerts and articles I really like what I'm seeing so far. The realms have taken some serious knocks and gotten some interesting makeovers. I can't wait to get my hands on the new setting (Some of my party members are coming to the states for a few weeks and high on their priority list is buying the FRCS! Joy!)I've even managed to convince some old roleplayers (an ex-Dark Sun addict in particular) to dust of of their forgotten dice and get back in the game! Keep up the good work design team
Wow!It looks like you're the first one I've seen who's actually excited about the 4th ed |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2008 : 22:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Until you're given a true writing assignment with a short deadline, you have no idea what it's like for these designers. Hell, I typically spend half my alloted time just researching for the article before I even start writing.
Being in the "book creation business" myself (non-fiction) I can only say that this is the usual way to go about things: a deadline. I can also say that sometimes the deadline is more important than the quality of the book and that is what always annoys me. I prefer books which are published "when they are done" over those who are published "when the deadline is up". From my own point of view I can also say that writing isnt easy (I am trying to do a little amateur writing myself) because you cant "force your Muse" to come up with interesting ideas and explanations, so sometimes it takes time to get things written ... a lot of time. Sadly this didnt work out for 4th edition and many articles and descriptions give the feeling of being written with a short deadline with no time for research. This gives the fans who like a setting for the stories it has a really bad feeling about the new edition and it probably cant be corrected easily. Those who are simply interested in exciting places to find spots for monster mashing will have loads of fun with 4e, but the story falls far too short for such a big place as the Forgotten Realms ... even with the reduced landmass. Evermeet is no exception and it got reduced from a mystical place to a monster mashing wilderness. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 17 Aug 2008 22:47:15 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 09:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by TwigB
Evermeet as a ruin filled monster isle...neat! Personally I always perceived it as untouchable, a place that held no real interest for my party, It was amazing but very Tolkein-esque. I think with Cormanthyr being reborn (I'm pretty sure it is, if I'm mistaken let me know) Evermeet just has no more place. The story and roleplaying potential here is enormous, I can imagine an elf who abandoned Evermeet in order to retake Cormanthyr, now racked with guilt over the loss of his previous homeland (kind of a reversal of fortunes)
As for the rest of the WotC exerts and articles I really like what I'm seeing so far. The realms have taken some serious knocks and gotten some interesting makeovers. I can't wait to get my hands on the new setting (Some of my party members are coming to the states for a few weeks and high on their priority list is buying the FRCS! Joy!)I've even managed to convince some old roleplayers (an ex-Dark Sun addict in particular) to dust of of their forgotten dice and get back in the game! Keep up the good work design team
The problem with the 4e campaign setting is that it has "taken out" many of the areas which were rich in story and intrigue by either declaring them "gone" or changing the civilization(s) which were living there to become pretty bland (so far, because we havent got as much description yet [always hoping for improvement, but I dont think it will come this time]). This is all well if you only expect "monster mashing" from the game, but those who want to "live" in the world and get involved in politics, maybe start a trading company and compete with rivals and so on, those people cant find any room for their way of playing a roleplaying game. The "old" Forgotten Realms did have sufficient room for "monster mashing", but the "new" doesnt care about style and this shows in the rather simple excerpts we get so far. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 14:27:15
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quote:
Wow!It looks like you're the first one I've seen who's actually excited about the 4th ed
I'm excited about 4th Edition. It's that just talking about that around here doesn't seem to be particularly politic. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 20:50:06
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You have to learn to seperate the Gamer in you from the Fan in you, as I have.
The FR Fan in me is disgusted.
But the FR DM in me sees endless possibilities now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 21:44:35
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-Right. Plus I really don't want to waste my time complaining the same complaints over and over again ad naseum. 
-After reading The Evermeet part of the FRCG, Evermeet is just an uninhabited echo of the Feywild version. The little Island to the Southeast is the Blasted Plaguelands Dungeon. Evermeet is a good base of operations to explore the Blasted Plagueland Dungeon! 
BRIMSTONE 
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 19 Aug 2008 21:45:23 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 23:42:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I'm excited about 4th Edition. It's that just talking about that around here doesn't seem to be particularly politic.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 01:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Wow!It looks like you're the first one I've seen who's actually excited about the 4th ed
I'm excited about 4th Edition. It's that just talking about that around here doesn't seem to be particularly politic.
I'm sorry Christopher, but that's simply not true. Granted, there is some negativity toward the overall premise of 4e, and of 4e FR in particular, but there are still many scribes very keen and rather content with what's coming in the FRCG. You're just as free to talk about 4e FR as you would any previous edition of the Realms.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Evermeet in the 4E FRCG
