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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 14:19:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
I do know how you feel Rinonalyrna, I felt that way when I heard that Helm was killed. I think I would have felt better if there had been a novel about the death of Helm.
Well, I wasn't only speaking for myself, I was making a general statement. "What's the problem?" For some people, it is a problem, for others, it's no big deal, or it may even be a cause for joy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm upset about the death of Helm, too. I really like Eilistraee, but it's not like she's the only element of the Realms setting that I'm upset over. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 23:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
There's a difference between identifying with characters and then being a little sad that no one ever even resembles you.
It's not true that there have been no dark-skinned characters in the Realms until now. That being said, I can admit that they have not been the majority.
I agree with Tasker Daze's main point.
It's not like I can really complain too much. But then I did just graduate and post colonialism and race theory were pretty big in my senior course so maybe I'm looking at the world through those lenses still. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 00:21:04
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That's one thing I like about fantasy: the chance to look thru new lenses.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 02:38:50
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| Unless you've had to study Ursula Le Guinn... lol. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Askanipsion
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 03:09:15
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I was disappointed in the this series. Not because of the death of Eli because along with Cyric and Shar, I never liked her at all.
I have a problem with how everyone in the book is so easily using High Magic. I don't see how a handful of high level Drow can reverse a spell that was created by High Elven Mages and Corellon. I don't mind that the Drow have access to High Magic - just the way they got access to it.
I don't think Eli is totally gone.....wouldn't surprise me if she became a lesser diety under Corellon.
Do we really need brown elves now? They wanted to get rid of all those elven sub-races but now they just created a new one. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 14:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Askanipsion
Do we really need brown elves now? They wanted to get rid of all those elven sub-races but now they just created a new one.
I was a bit puzzled by that, myself. I thought the number of sub-races was considered "burdensome". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Black Glove
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 19:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
Unless you've had to study Ursula Le Guinn... lol.
Antwerp!
The temptation got me. Soz.  |
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yanic
Acolyte
Jamaica
8 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 09:22:14
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| Hey nkoda u a fellow jamaica? Anyway the killing of Eilistraee saddens me although i already expected this, she was always a doomed character, ever since reading the book of the elves, and she being cast down of with her brother and her mother when she should not have, i knew she was doomed, and almost every book ive read with Eilistraee worshippers they were always dying and dropping out like flies, so her dieing was preordained, put her out of her misery best thing that couldve happened for her lol |
art is life and life is art |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 14:32:20
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Based off of what i am reading, how is it possible Drizzt is still considered Drow with the same characteristics he always had and not a Dark elf now?
Or did they make some special exception for him? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 18:04:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Based off of what i am reading, how is it possible Drizzt is still considered Drow with the same characteristics he always had and not a Dark elf now?
Or did they make some special exception for him?
We don't know--it's still a mystery.
It's highly possible, though, that's there's nothing "mysterious" about it--for example, maybe one author just didn't know what the other author was doing. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 19:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Based off of what i am reading, how is it possible Drizzt is still considered Drow with the same characteristics he always had and not a Dark elf now?
Or did they make some special exception for him?
We don't know--it's still a mystery.
It's highly possible, though, that's there's nothing "mysterious" about it--for example, maybe one author just didn't know what the other author was doing.
And this is just one thing we can speculate about what occurs with Drizzt. There is still the multiclassing matter that we don't know about (is he a Ranger with Fighter multiclass abilities? etc...) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 00:31:51
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| Reading this scrolls makes me question if I want to buy and read this book or not. I hate to leave a trilogy unfinished, but I am reading much that is tweaking me the wrong way! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Inaubryn
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 08:57:24
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This is a game that was created by, developed by, and continues to be produced by predominantly white males. As we all know, most human beings will attempt to recreate images of themselves. This is why most fantasy art has caucasian looking men and women portrayed as heroes. This is also the case in any other popular media as well (TV, Movies).
My brother who is a game programmer, for a small developer in Louisiana, went to the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco a few months back. He met a Wizard's of the Coast representative. They got to talking about various things and he asked my brother a simple question. "How do we make fantasy/DnD appeal more to minorities?"
My brother called me because he knows I'm real big about things like this. I told him to tell the guy for one, you can start by including more images of minorities in your artwork. Why would people take a profound interest in something that hardly, if ever, portrays any of their likenesses? That being said, don't expect to see more ethnic or minority-like faces in DnD anytime soon. That sounds a bit cynical and I guess it would be if it weren't true.
As far as Lolth being the last god of the drow and all drow worshiping her, what happens to all the Vhaeraunites and others who hate Lolth? What happens to those that despise the self-destructive, crushing tyranny of the Spider Queen? Do they just say, well she's all we got left, gotta roll with ol' Lolthy?
Yeah. That's like all Jews suddenly flipping over to Islam, And, please don't take this as I'm applying evil/tyrannical references to either of these real world religions. I'm just saying, the Jaelre, Auzkovyn, drow beneath the Forest of Mir, and others like the Jaezred Chaulssin, who have spent a good majority of their lives fighting against Lolth and her followers, are not gonna just suddenly come back into the fold. Hell, they wouldn't even be welcomed. Can you say sacrificial heretics?
Ah well. There that is. |
Edited by - Inaubryn on 01 Jul 2008 08:59:06 |
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Xaositect
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 15:57:49
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Inaubryn, I believe your question about "what about non-Lolth worshippers" is one that this trilogy was mainly trying to answer. I figured that the answer is they are either changed into those lovely "brown skinned elves" and "redeemed" *puke* - or dead. In other words, this trilogy made it so that most dont exist anymore. Now it appears to me that we just have the Lolth lovers and the Lolth haters, thats it. One side being Lolths pawns, the other the Seldarine.
Alas, my dream of a large group of Drow made up of those tired of being gods and goddesses puppets - a society of secular Drow - doesnt look like its something I would ever see. Why cant more Drow be like Jarlaxle? Or Pharaun? My kind of Drow is the kind that gives the middle finger to the gods, particularly the Seldarine and Lolth, who are responsible for the entire mess in the first place. At least in my view. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 16:03:14
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| Well, to be fair I've pored through the 4E core rulebooks and saw faces that weren't pale-skinned/Caucasian-featured. They weren't the majority, but they are there. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Jul 2008 16:13:57 |
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Inaubryn
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 01:05:41
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| Yes. Like the monk woman in the 3E Core books. But, she is more the token than anything else. The other core characters are caucasian-looking. None of the most popular novel characters are representative of minority groups and so on. So, I agree with you. But, minorities will always be a small minority of fantasy consumers as long as the products continue not to feature or represent them visually or in any other manner. |
Edited by - Inaubryn on 02 Jul 2008 01:19:04 |
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Flounder
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2008 : 21:01:38
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Warning: SPOILERS
With regard to the question of why didn't Drizzt become a dark elf, I think the answer could simply be: he is a descendant of the Illythirii, not a descendant of the Myeritari, and he is a follower of Mielikki, not a follower of Elistraee. On page 287: “Not all,” the ancestors told Q’arlynd. “Only those few without taint. Myeritari, such as yourselves, and those who follow the dance. By Elistraee’s grace, they too will have transformed.”
Also, I would like to point out what seems to me to be either a glaringly large plot hole, or a subtle indication that not is all as it seems with regard to Elistraee’s death. Leliana states Elistraee and Qilue are both destroyed because their heads were chopped off by the Crescent Blade. However, Cavatina’s head was also chopped off by the Crescent Blade; and yet, at the end of the book, her soul is safely on the Fugue Plane, waiting for the eladrin to whisk her off to Arvandor. As Bane proved, deities do not necessarily remain dead in the Realms. |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 04:15:15
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quote:
Originally posted by yanic
Hey nkoda u a fellow jamaica? Anyway the killing of Eilistraee saddens me although i already expected this, she was always a doomed character, ever since reading the book of the elves, and she being cast down of with her brother and her mother when she should not have, i knew she was doomed, and almost every book ive read with Eilistraee worshippers they were always dying and dropping out like flies, so her dieing was preordained, put her out of her misery best thing that couldve happened for her lol
American. Just a huge fan of the Marleys. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 04:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Flounder
Warning: SPOILERS
With regard to the question of why didn't Drizzt become a dark elf, I think the answer could simply be: he is a descendant of the Illythirii, not a descendant of the Myeritari, and he is a follower of Mielikki, not a follower of Elistraee. On page 287: “Not all,” the ancestors told Q’arlynd. “Only those few without taint. Myeritari, such as yourselves, and those who follow the dance. By Elistraee’s grace, they too will have transformed.”
Also, I would like to point out what seems to me to be either a glaringly large plot hole, or a subtle indication that not is all as it seems with regard to Elistraee’s death. Leliana states Elistraee and Qilue are both destroyed because their heads were chopped off by the Crescent Blade. However, Cavatina’s head was also chopped off by the Crescent Blade; and yet, at the end of the book, her soul is safely on the Fugue Plane, waiting for the eladrin to whisk her off to Arvandor. As Bane proved, deities do not necessarily remain dead in the Realms.
I'm assuming maybe the changes made to the blade when it was inhabited by Wendonai might have weakened the blade itself. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Karkona
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 01:35:32
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| Who the crap authorized Lisa Smedman to kill Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and Qilue? Who are my drow characters going to worship now?? God of slimes or spiders pssht please... |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 02:56:04
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quote:
You may be correct (to be honest, I've heard contradictory things about what dark elves looked like before the "Fall"), but even if that's the case, I still think the idea behind it is dubious. And I think it's dubious whether or not it's a cultural trope (cultural ideas can be faulty, and even dangerous). The fact that "black=evil" is an old idea doesn't mean it's above criticism.
As opposed to the idea that the only option for Good Elves was previously being Lilly White? No offense but now there's a substantial portion of Brown Skinned Elves who are Good and thus darker skinned players can play people who look like them without essentially having the setting suggest that they're part of an innately evil race that's known by their black skin.
Drow's black skin is no more black than Goblin's Yellow skin looks like Asian. They're an alien race removed from the connotations of racism at last.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 21:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Karkona
Who the crap authorized Lisa Smedman to kill Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and Qilue?
WotC. In fact, it's likely they told her to do all that, not merely "authorize" it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 21:44:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
As opposed to the idea that the only option for Good Elves was previously being Lilly White?
But that wasn't the case, as I believe I've mentioned before. Only moon elves (and maybe avariel) were "lily white". Gold elves were bronze, wood elves and wild elves had tan or brown skin. Sea elves have blue or green skin. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 21:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
No offense but now there's a substantial portion of Brown Skinned Elves who are Good and thus darker skinned players can play people who look like them without essentially having the setting suggest that they're part of an innately evil race that's known by their black skin.
Drow's black skin is no more black than Goblin's Yellow skin looks like Asian. They're an alien race removed from the connotations of racism at last.
I just want to say, you just contradicted yourself here. Drow skin is either "racist" or it isn't. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 23:01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Ps. Anyone else running out of favorite gods?
Yup.
I've always liked Lathander, so I'm not happy to see him gone. I'm especially unhappy with the the method of his leaving. I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea, and even if it was a good idea, I don't see how he could go from "young and vigorous" to an entirely different persona in a mere century.
Nobanion is another fave. And they've nerfed him down to an Exarch.
With Nobanion nerfed, Lurue, my fave Realms deity, is also likely to be nerfed to an Exarch. Ditto for Finder. And I'm doubting Shaundakul will still remain as a deity.
Eilistraee is another personal fave, and she's gone...
And don't get me started on them offing Mystra... 
I have a question about a deity if someone can answer it for me, please... what'll happen to Eldath? I've always liked her. |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 23:17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Karkona
Who the crap authorized Lisa Smedman to kill Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and Qilue? Who are my drow characters going to worship now?? God of slimes or spiders pssht please...
Had to laugh when it is put this bluntly!!! Sounds like AO is off on an extended holiday on Phloston Paradise!
But the short answer is if they want to worship a drow diety it is either Lolth or Lolth!!!!
If only they had stopped killing gods with the drow!!! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Karkona
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2008 : 18:34:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Karkona
Who the crap authorized Lisa Smedman to kill Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm and Qilue? Who are my drow characters going to worship now?? God of slimes or spiders pssht please...
Oh yea I forgot to add Kiaransalee, very neat god and killed her off too and real easily |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2008 : 20:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
I have a question about a deity if someone can answer it for me, please... what'll happen to Eldath? I've always liked her.
I don't see any reason for them to kill her... But then again, I don't see why many of the things done during the Sellplague were done.
I expect Eldath will still be around, though she might be nerfed to an Exarch. We'll have to wait for the FRCG to come out to know for certain. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2008 : 22:53:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Dark Elves and Drow are now different.
I stand by all the points I made. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Topic |
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Ascendancy of the last. Heavy spoilers
