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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 00:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But my assertion that Drow are inherintly evil comes straight from the rules book.
Which one? Probably not one of the more recent ones (3E or 4E). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 00:31:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
Honestly, as a black person of African descent, it is kind of nice to have civilized characters to relate to.
Well, the people of Chult do have a city (Mezro), so I'm not sure they can be called uncivilized. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Jun 2008 00:32:13 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 01:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But my assertion that Drow are inherintly evil comes straight from the rules book.
Which one? Probably not one of the more recent ones (3E or 4E).
Fiend Folio (1st)
quote:
The figures and facts given under these headings indicate the general parameters in question.
page 7
quote:
Alignment: Chaotic Evil ...
Ages past, when the Elvenfok were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better didposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel.. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elvenkind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorories, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands of the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underword.
page 33
MM (Core rules CD, 2nd
quote:
All of the monsters described here are typical for their type. DMs should note that unusual variations are encouraged, but they are most effective when they depart from the expected.
quote:
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil...
These dreaded, evil creatures were once part of the community of elves that still roam the world's forests. Now these dark elves inhabit black caves and winding tunnels under the earth, where they make dire plans against the races that still walk beneath the sun, on the surface of the green earth.
SRD (3.5)
quote:
Alignment
This line gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to the species as a whole.
quote:
Alignment: Usually neutral evil...
Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean offshoot.
I have not seen full MM for 4th, however preview appears to indicate Chaotic Evil with less chance of redemption then even 1st had.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 07:45:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
Honestly, as a black person of African descent, it is kind of nice to have civilized characters to relate to.
Well, the people of Chult do have a city (Mezro), so I'm not sure they can be called uncivilized.
True, but it's not like there's ever been a book about Chult. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36904 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 13:29:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
Honestly, as a black person of African descent, it is kind of nice to have civilized characters to relate to.
Well, the people of Chult do have a city (Mezro), so I'm not sure they can be called uncivilized.
True, but it's not like there's ever been a book about Chult.
You mean sourcebooks like The Jungle of Chult, or novels like The Ring of Winter? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 13:45:12
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And Vanity's Brood as well. Jess Lebow's Master of Chains novel also contains a few bits about Chultan society.
As for sourcebooks... Serpent Kingdoms, Dragons of Faerūn, and a few brief Chult-related tidbits mentioned in several of the timelines of Lost Empires of Faerūn -- which have been included in Grand History as well.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 13:58:39
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| AND you get to visit Chult in the Xbox game Demon Stone |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Xaositect
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 15:47:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
Honestly, as a black person of African descent, it is kind of nice to have civilized characters to relate to. Previously, all I had in the realms to relate to was the barbarians of Chult. The Drow, after all, didn't look black. Maybe it's a marketing hook to get more black people into the campaign by providing people to relate to.
Oh, I definitely agree that its good that there are some better roles out there now. Though I didnt say it myself, I also agree that while I can sympathise with the point about the Drow being a real harcore evil race with incredibly dark skin (like them being one of the few matriarchal societies, yet full on evil) they still dont resemble a real world race. I never really say it in these Drow controvesy discussions because I wouldnt want to sound dismissive of peoples complaints, but the Drow still do have a skin tone no real life human has, and their features are a mixture of real and fantasy, so thats got to at least count for something. Its like the Duegar with grey skin as well. I wont deny its troubling, but I always thought it could be solved simply by having more dark skinned races doing just as well as any other race (or matriarchal society). I mean its the reason why I dont have a problem with a bunch of white guy villains, because there is an abundance of white guy hereos.
Sorry, I didnt mean to get into this kind of rant on Drow and D&D.
Mainly I just couldnt see the point in changing the Drow skin colour at all really. Maybe I was wrong all along, but I had just thought that Araushnee (Lolth), Vhaeraun and Eilistraee had obsidian coloured skin all along, and thats why the Drow did. Not becuase its part of some "curse". |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 17:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I have not seen full MM for 4th, however preview appears to indicate Chaotic Evil with less chance of redemption then even 1st had.
Lolth is Chaotic Evil, but the drow as a whole are "Evil" according to the Monster Manual. Not only that, but it is stated that the given alignments are just guidelines and there could be exceptions to the rule. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Jun 2008 17:09:45 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 17:11:38
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quote:
Araushnee (Lolth), Vhaeraun and Eilistraee had obsidian coloured skin all along,
I suspect it is a result of when deities were invented, Elistrae and Vhaeraun came into existance during 2nd FR IIRC. Long after Lolth showed up. These late starters had black shin just like the Drow did when they first appeared. Lolth started as a Demon with one form she would use was that of a female Drow.
Then creation legends, the back story, was written for both Greyhawk and FR. In FR we get the Crown Wars, where indeed there was the curse that clearly changed dark elves into Drow. The most noticible effect was adversion to sunlight. There at first were posible hints of other changes but did not matter all that much until back stories started to be written. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 17:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
True, but it's not like there's ever been a book about Chult.
Uh, yes, there have been, as mentioned by others.
Also, I forgot to mention before that surface elves have never been wholly "Caucasian looking". The only truly pale-skinned elves are moon elves (and avariel, I believe). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 07:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But my assertion that Drow are inherintly evil comes straight from the rules book.
Which one? Probably not one of the more recent ones (3E or 4E).
Actually in the monster manuals for all 4 editions you will find that Drow are either listed as straight up evil or "usually" evil. As for PC Drow, well the rules have always assumed free will with PC's and never have imposed alignment when choosing a race. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 07:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
But my assertion that Drow are inherintly evil comes straight from the rules book.
Which one? Probably not one of the more recent ones (3E or 4E).
Fiend Folio (1st)
quote:
The figures and facts given under these headings indicate the general parameters in question.
page 7
quote:
Alignment: Chaotic Evil ...
Ages past, when the Elvenfok were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord and those of better didposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel.. However constant warfare between the two divisions of elvenkind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorories, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands of the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underword.
page 33
MM (Core rules CD, 2nd
quote:
All of the monsters described here are typical for their type. DMs should note that unusual variations are encouraged, but they are most effective when they depart from the expected.
quote:
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil...
These dreaded, evil creatures were once part of the community of elves that still roam the world's forests. Now these dark elves inhabit black caves and winding tunnels under the earth, where they make dire plans against the races that still walk beneath the sun, on the surface of the green earth.
SRD (3.5)
quote:
Alignment
This line gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to the species as a whole.
quote:
Alignment: Usually neutral evil...
Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean offshoot.
I have not seen full MM for 4th, however preview appears to indicate Chaotic Evil with less chance of redemption then even 1st had.
Ah yes, thank you Kentinal...you made my point for me. ;) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 16:15:45
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| What point? I wasn't arguing that drow aren't mostly evil, I was arguing that they aren't inherently evil (that is, born evil no matter what). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 17:39:20
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| Also guys, do remember that core doesn't always mean that FR is the same. Eilistraee has been in FR since Ed created it, so there has always been some drow that are not inherently evil. Yes, most of them are evil but FR has never been black and white towards what is, or is not, evil. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 13:18:21
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Hm, I didn't read this thread completely, but I think it was left out, that Corellon takes over Eilistraee's portfolio (it isn't clearly stated in the book, but Corellon does take her place at the sava board) and is battling or playing a game against Lolth over the drow. It's interesting how this and the actually good ending of the book are ignored. Gods die all the time in the FR since 2E, so what's the problem? The idea of Eilistraee lives on in the Seldarine.
Considering the few comments in the Book Club, I'm wondering how many of the posters here have actually read the book. Ranting about something you didn't see or read yourself is not fair on WotC. You should at least show that much respect. Trying to bring politial correctness in to a fantasy setting doesn't help either.
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Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
Edited by - Braveheart on 25 Jun 2008 13:19:32 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 14:26:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
Hm, I didn't read this thread completely, but I think it was left out, that Corellon takes over Eilistraee's portfolio (it isn't clearly stated in the book, but Corellon does take her place at the sava board) and is battling or playing a game against Lolth over the drow. It's interesting how this and the actually good ending of the book are ignored. Gods die all the time in the FR since 2E, so what's the problem?
People liked Eilistraee? *shrug* What's the problem with being upset over her death? I wouldn't say gods "die all the time" in this setting, either. When they die, it is usually a big deal, both within the setting and without.
I agree with Kuje regarding matters of good and evil in the Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36904 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:19:27
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| And while gods do die "all the time", usually their death is in a far more satisfactory manner. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jun 2008 16:20:12 |
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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
Hm, I didn't read this thread completely, but I think it was left out, that Corellon takes over Eilistraee's portfolio (it isn't clearly stated in the book, but Corellon does take her place at the sava board) and is battling or playing a game against Lolth over the drow. It's interesting how this and the actually good ending of the book are ignored. Gods die all the time in the FR since 2E, so what's the problem? The idea of Eilistraee lives on in the Seldarine.
Considering the few comments in the Book Club, I'm wondering how many of the posters here have actually read the book. Ranting about something you didn't see or read yourself is not fair on WotC. You should at least show that much respect. Trying to bring politial correctness in to a fantasy setting doesn't help either.
Greetings all.
What book is this that details Corellon taking Eilistraee's place on the Sava board against Lolth? |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
True, but it's not like there's ever been a book about Chult.
Uh, yes, there have been, as mentioned by others.
Also, I forgot to mention before that surface elves have never been wholly "Caucasian looking". The only truly pale-skinned elves are moon elves (and avariel, I believe).
mainly what i am saying is there is kind of a dearth of main characters to personally identify with in the FR. I understand that it's a series based on Medieval Europe, but again that is the plight of the African American fantasy reader. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And while gods do die "all the time", usually their death is in a far more satisfactory manner.
Agreed. Killed by Halisstra Melarn is not a good ending for a deity. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And while gods do die "all the time", usually their death is in a far more satisfactory manner.
Agreed. Even a little mortal like me figured out that Eilistraee would die as soon as Halisstra carried Quilue into her "temple". 
quote:
Originally postet by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
People liked Eilistraee? *shrug* What's the problem with being upset over her death? I wouldn't say gods "die all the time" in this setting, either. When they die, it is usually a big deal, both within the setting and without.
It might well be that this is the first deity killed that people really liked a lot (ok, perhaps some liked the first Mystra). It just wasn't a meaningless death and who knows? Perhaps she'll come back some day...
I do know how you feel Rinonalyrna, I felt that way when I heard that Helm was killed. I think I would have felt better if there had been a novel about the death of Helm. |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
Edited by - Braveheart on 25 Jun 2008 18:49:40 |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 20:30:50
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| I personally just don't like the thought that the remaining drow are beyond redemption. I mean, no sentient being is ever wholly beyond making a choice for themselves. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 20:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
I personally just don't like the thought that the remaining drow are beyond redemption. I mean, no sentient being is ever wholly beyond making a choice for themselves.
They are not beyond redemption, just the ruleset appears to make it harder then 2nd or 3rd did because of the Death of Eilistraee and the transformation of those that followed her.
Become non Drow and Drow are far less likely to listen to you. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 22:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
True, but it's not like there's ever been a book about Chult.
Uh, yes, there have been, as mentioned by others.
Also, I forgot to mention before that surface elves have never been wholly "Caucasian looking". The only truly pale-skinned elves are moon elves (and avariel, I believe).
mainly what i am saying is there is kind of a dearth of main characters to personally identify with in the FR. I understand that it's a series based on Medieval Europe, but again that is the plight of the African American fantasy reader.
I dunno, I can identify with characters with differing skin tones... If you can't do that, how can you identify with elves, dwarves, centaurs, and other races?
Skin tone is almost never a factor in either sci-fi or fantasy, unlike the real world. |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 22:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
I personally just don't like the thought that the remaining drow are beyond redemption. I mean, no sentient being is ever wholly beyond making a choice for themselves.
I'm not sure about that. What are Corellon and Lolth fighting over, if not the souls of the drow? |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 23:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
True, but it's not like there's ever been a book about Chult.
Uh, yes, there have been, as mentioned by others.
Also, I forgot to mention before that surface elves have never been wholly "Caucasian looking". The only truly pale-skinned elves are moon elves (and avariel, I believe).
mainly what i am saying is there is kind of a dearth of main characters to personally identify with in the FR. I understand that it's a series based on Medieval Europe, but again that is the plight of the African American fantasy reader.
I dunno, I can identify with characters with differing skin tones... If you can't do that, how can you identify with elves, dwarves, centaurs, and other races?
Skin tone is almost never a factor in either sci-fi or fantasy, unlike the real world.
There's a difference between identifying with characters and then being a little sad that no one ever even resembles you. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 23:41:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
I personally just don't like the thought that the remaining drow are beyond redemption. I mean, no sentient being is ever wholly beyond making a choice for themselves.
I'm not sure about that. What are Corellon and Lolth fighting over, if not the souls of the drow?
true, but then this contradicts what the weepy dramatic eladrin was saying at the end of the book. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 14:15:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Nkoda
There's a difference between identifying with characters and then being a little sad that no one ever even resembles you.
It's not true that there have been no dark-skinned characters in the Realms until now. That being said, I can admit that they have not been the majority.
I agree with Tasker Daze's main point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 26 Jun 2008 14:17:21 |
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Ascendancy of the last. Heavy spoilers
