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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jun 2003 : 14:18:44
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I am sitting in the middle of my 'Philosophy of Law' class, just before the break for the afternoon, thinking about - among other things (philosophy and law) - campaigns and the FR (obviously  ). I am just curious (since I don't have access to my books at the moment), what ever became of Amaunators portfolios of the Sun, law, rulership, and all the others?. I have been thinking (in class) about utilising this 'fallen god' in an upcoming campaign, but I hit a bump, when I tried to answer this question. If I had had access to my books, this wouldn't have been a problem.
What I do remember is that he died of 'neglect', for want of a better term, and he lost possession of his domain on Mechanus - the Keep of the Eternal Sun, if I remember correctly. He was then exiled to the Astral Plane. But what happened to his portfolios?.
Comments?,
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2003 : 17:31:35
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If one follows the notion advanced by Eric Boyd that Lathander is a reincarnation/splinter/remnant of Amaunator, then it's a pretty simple jump to say that his dominion over the sun has been partially co-opted by Lathander in the portfolio element "dawn" (which prevents any other god from adopting "sun" as a portfolio element).
Personally, I'm of the belief that the rulership element may have found its way into the hands of Siamorphe, explaining the golden sun on the silver chalice of that deity.
Perhaps Waukeen absorbed his oversight of contracts (into the greater element of "trade"), adding a face to her gold coin. "Law" and "order" don't seem to have direct patrons these days, and though the related "justice" falls obviously into Tyr's hand, it seems that "letter of the law" sort of people fall more under Helm than Tyr these days. Bureaucracy might fall under the portfolio element of scribes (Deneir) or corruption (Gargauth).
All of this is speculation, really. Only the most tenuous of connections could be made between Waukeen, Helm or Deneir over to Amaunator; while portfolio elements might match up, we need flavor to make these relationships stick, and the only thing that really stands out are the use of a face on Waukeen's golden coin (a common sun symbol), and the use of a single eye for both Deneir and Helm (also a common symbol for the sun). Make of it what you will, but I'm personally inclined to just stick with the more solid Lathander and Siamorphe relations for now. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2003 : 07:55:15
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Very well thought out. I like that. And, pending research on my own (should that ever happen  ), I agree. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2003 : 10:17:42
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That is a very interesting analysis Garen.
I really can't agree with the fact that Lathander may have picked up a portion of the portfolio, as this would simply give him too much power, enough maybe to finally succeed in reshaping the pantheon in his image, ie. creating another 'Dawn Cataclysm'
Since I finished class yesterday I have been thinking about this a great deal. For most of his portfolio elements, I had at first assumed that Siamphore would have gained a portion, as well as both Bane, and Gargauth. I also thought that maybe Tyr would have picked up 'Order', but all of this really doesn't make much sense in the fact that it would allow one God a greater portion of power than he/she would normally have. Anway since the ToT, Ao seems more interested in maintaining the balance between the powers.
Of course one could also claim, that the reason none of his portfolio has been claimed, is because Amaunator is not really dead, and will one day return...
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2003 : 11:35:26
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I feel most strongly about Eric Boyd's suggestion/theory. Lathander has inherited most of Aumanator's portfolio, albeit in a watered down version in most cases. Even the contracts part is also governed by the Morninglord (see page 37 Faiths & Pantheons), and indeed as Garen Thal suggests, some of the other portfolio's essence might have gone to other deities. I had never thought of Siamorphe in this context, but it does make sense to some extent. (the odd thing, and which sits a bit weird in this theory, being that Siamorphe's faith is almost exclusively tied to Waterdeep and only more recently Tethyr...)
- If one follwos the course of the sun during a day, the morning sun is fresh, new and vibrant.
- The noon sun is full, mature, experienced and powerfull, but subject to stagnancy.
- The setting sun still holds radiance, but symbolizes more decay, and corruption.
Following loosely the events around Bane and Xvim, and the cycle of the sun, Lathander [Dawn - Noon] could be the rebirth of Aumanator [Noon - Dusk].
Lathander is as of yet not corrupted, and still somewhat naive. This is also reflected in the worshippers' alignments. Lathander's are the three Good alignments, while Aumantor's embrace all but the chaotic ones.
With the Dawn Cataclysm and the new plans the Morninglord is brewing to fight of evil, Shar is involved. Shar, who symbolizes the darkness of night, that which comes after the sun sets. Shar's influence is slowly making it's way into Lathander's actions and church. Once she gains a foothold (which could be symbolized by the noon point) slowly the Mistress of Night draws the sun down into the embrace of night. (The divine Dusk and the final setting of the divine Sun coinciding with the fall of Netheril?) |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2003 : 17:13:13
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Worry not Sage for the Insane Cardinal has come to your rescue.... (now are you better or worse off? )
ANYWAYS, my own two cents worth once again more or less follows the "If you will turn away from the Darkness and Accept the BG series as Cannon' train of thought... catchy title, no?
Anyways Amunator can thoretically be 'found' below the temple district in Athkatla... or at least an Avatar form of him, simply because several of his followers were given immortality to be keepers of a device of great enough power to destroy the gods themselves ( the Rift device). Right well these people would live die then be reborn instantly forever and ever, unable to leave the area and unable to 'die' or have the peace of the grave. So their blind devotion to their hate ( after all what kind of existence is that?) gave birth to a demon that gets healed from attacks ( Have to us a healing spell to harm and kill it, any offecive magic only heals... rather ingenius, no?) And although forgetting Amunator he survived on their hate for the deity that bound them there, ( after all Deities are now based on belief and if you believe enough even through hate, you allow the deity to return/be reborn/etc.). SO you could simply have him return... I'd like to see him return.. Even if he was a good god ( or neutral even better), I'd follow him. I'd repent (shocked?), I'd give up the evil ways only because the older the Deity the more I want to follow said deity... Velsharoon's ok and all but I'd like to see Jergal reinstated as the 'Lord of the end of Everything'. But lacking that, Amunator would do. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2003 : 20:33:38
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| there are maney things abut Amaunators in the bg games and i for one would like to se him come back he sems like a nice god. but any how why did he get banish to the Astral Plane???? and that means that he can come back like other dead gods like bhaal or bane hwo did come back ????? |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2003 : 21:38:16
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| As Sage said Cyric, Amunator Died of neglect. If no one worships him then what point is there in remaining... Actually That is the reason that I would repent and follow him... it makes me feel as close to pity as I can. What worse fate is there to have the potential to do so much and yet be ignored by the masses? To be forced to fade and wane in power as new upstarts come and instantly gain power. He was also bound ( at the time) by the Tablets of Fate so worshipers were not a part of his decline (more or less, he still could have had to power of a Greater Deity but as I said, he was forgotten and ignored, perhaps written off as Lathander instead, a deity I hate on general principle). Sometimes one feels he or she must walk away since the trouble of fighting is too hard and the outcome too unpredictable. Lathander is a vain deity and should be crushed accordingly. Reinstated the Eternal Light, AMUNATOR!!!! |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2003 : 16:30:54
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| so true lathander shuld die and good Amaunators come back that is probaley what happens when lathander tries to change the world to his own likings |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 04:27:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
so true lathander shuld die and good Amaunators come back that is probaley what happens when lathander tries to change the world to his own likings
Would you be willing to trade Cyric for Amaunator?????????? |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 14:18:30
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Dear me, I replied to this post, and forgot to keep myself updated on it when I went away for a month. Now that it's fired back up a bit, maybe I can inject something else into things.
I posted the following to the REALMS-L quite a while back, in the hopes of getting people to consider how the fall of Amaunator might have influenced the other deities of the Realms. Feel free to discuss it, and if there's any interest, I'll post the line-by-line explanation soon.
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Below is the text of a relief found in the sands of Anauroch 1303 DR. It is thought to have drifted from the ruins of fallen Asram.
Though there is light
The great lord of the Sun no longer shines down upon us.
We watch him scamper off, as a cuckhold does his wife
To sleep in the lands of the dead.
The storm raises in fury at this betrayal
And the golden disk of kings flees for distant lands
Seeking the silver chalice of queens.
What once was a great man is now dust,
And we wait for the day of rebirth
When we can see his son in the glory of his youth.
------
Disclaimer: I don't now subscribe, nor have I ever subscribed to, the notion of imposing D&D cosmologies onto FR. Floating astral husks get on my nerves. I prefer to leave such matters out of the discussion altogether, and look at things from a more organic, holistic view, ignoring the "rules" in favor of the story. Ao's balance, the Tablets of Fate, the strict adherence to portfolios- none of this comes into play when we talk about what the folk of the Realms actually believe, which, when it comes to the gods, should be the most important piece of the puzzle. |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2003 : 16:51:40
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What a second where did you get this and his son, i think he was in bg2 or his doughter. And of course no one can take Cyrics place but when i was playing bg2 i found this god cool. (i have no ide what a cuckholdis by the way) a cuckhold does his wife so he has a wife, who could that be and am sure that it was latander who drowe him away that bastard i hope Cyric kills him.
I bet this has somthing to do with that thing latander did when mesed things up. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 06:35:19
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| Cyric you never cease to amaze me, You talk of vengeance and demand the return of a 'good' god... I use the term 'good' loosely. Yet Talking of vengeance and the Idea of Cyric doing an act that is not modivated out of his own selfish thought..... * Sighs* Still there is hope for you... I break you from that sham of a god yet...... Perhaps Amunator's return could make him fall a little in grace... perhaps to Lawful Evil... after all if I died of neglect then returned..... woe to those who stood in my way |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 09:07:28
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| wel i woulden say he was a good god he was lawful nutral and he had evil clerics and he could be a good ally to Cyric if Cyric kills latander,and Cyric would kill with out selfish reasons he is after all the lord of murder |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 13:32:11
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Allow me to explain.
The verse above is a quasi-religious poem from the ruins of one of the survivor-states of Netheril. They are speaking of Amaunator (in part), and of the disappointment and betrayal they felt when he did not intercede to stop the fall of Netheril at the time of Karsus' Folly.
On that note, I'll now explain what each line of the "poem" means, so as to provide a better idea of where I was coming from when I wrote it.
Though there is light
The great lord of the Sun no longer shines down upon us.
This is a reference to the betrayal felt by worshippers of Amaunator for his inability to intercede in Karsus' folly.
We watch him scamper off, as a cuckold does his wife
To sleep in the lands of the dead.
The source of the Bedine belief in At'ar the Merciless, a female sun goddess that betrays her husband each night to lay with N'asr, god of the dead.
The storm raises in fury at this betrayal
A continuation of the above. This is sidelong a reference to Kozah, god of Storms, which was the Netherese (and is now the Bedine) name for Talos.
And the golden disk of kings flees for distant lands
Seeking the silver chalice of queens.
As god of rulership, Amaunator has now fled his rightful place, the Netherese believe, looking for some other people to reign over. This is also an indirect source for the symbol of Siamorphe, who uses the silver chalice with a golden sun disk.
What once was a great man is now dust,
And we wait for the day of rebirth
When we can see his son in the glory of his youth.
This is a call for Amaunator to return to his former glory, and if he cannot, to send another to stand in his place as god of the sun.
So what does it all mean? Perhaps this prayer is the beginning of the faiths of both Lathander (as god of rebirth and the dawn) and Siamorphe (as god/goddess of royalty and rulership). It may be an ancient story told to children, or a cursing of Amaunator in the form of verse.
This was mainly meant as an explanation for the seemingly inconsistent beliefs of the Bedine, who hold Amaunator/At'ar as an evil goddess that each night betrays her lawful husband Kozah (Talos) to lay with N'asr (god of the dead, variably Kelemvor or Cyric or Myrkul or whatever evil god has the job this week). As some desert cultures associate the west with the lands of the dead, this may simply be a verse spoken at dusk by those Netherese who felt supremely betrayed by Amaunator.
It's not meant to say that Lathander is really Amaunator's son, or reincarnation, or anything of the sort. It's not a true reallocation of Amaunator's former power, as the only portfolio element that is still claimed by any god is "rulership" (Siamorphe)- there is no god of bureaucracy, contracts, law, order or the sun.
However, Lathander's name is invoked when a contract is undertaken. He's the god of the dawn. He's the patron of many aristocrats and nobles. So, even if we don't view him as somehow spawned of Amaunator (and I do not), perhaps there is some credence to the idea that beliefs once attached to the god of the sun have somehow made their way into conceptions of Lathander. |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 16:52:51
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| but where did you find the poem ?? |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 05:40:15
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| As I said above: I wrote it myself. |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 12:45:43
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| wel it was a good poem i would say |
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Serwadion
Acolyte
Italy
1 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2004 : 15:52:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Allow me to explain.
The verse above is a quasi-religious poem from the ruins of one of the survivor-states of Netheril. They are speaking of Amaunator (in part), and of the disappointment and betrayal they felt when he did not intercede to stop the fall of Netheril at the time of Karsus' Folly.
On that note, I'll now explain what each line of the "poem" means, so as to provide a better idea of where I was coming from when I wrote it.
Though there is light
The great lord of the Sun no longer shines down upon us.
This is a reference to the betrayal felt by worshippers of Amaunator for his inability to intercede in Karsus' folly.
We watch him scamper off, as a cuckold does his wife
To sleep in the lands of the dead.
The source of the Bedine belief in At'ar the Merciless, a female sun goddess that betrays her husband each night to lay with N'asr, god of the dead.
The storm raises in fury at this betrayal
A continuation of the above. This is sidelong a reference to Kozah, god of Storms, which was the Netherese (and is now the Bedine) name for Talos.
And the golden disk of kings flees for distant lands
Seeking the silver chalice of queens.
As god of rulership, Amaunator has now fled his rightful place, the Netherese believe, looking for some other people to reign over. This is also an indirect source for the symbol of Siamorphe, who uses the silver chalice with a golden sun disk.
What once was a great man is now dust,
And we wait for the day of rebirth
When we can see his son in the glory of his youth.
This is a call for Amaunator to return to his former glory, and if he cannot, to send another to stand in his place as god of the sun.
So what does it all mean? Perhaps this prayer is the beginning of the faiths of both Lathander (as god of rebirth and the dawn) and Siamorphe (as god/goddess of royalty and rulership). It may be an ancient story told to children, or a cursing of Amaunator in the form of verse.
This was mainly meant as an explanation for the seemingly inconsistent beliefs of the Bedine, who hold Amaunator/At'ar as an evil goddess that each night betrays her lawful husband Kozah (Talos) to lay with N'asr (god of the dead, variably Kelemvor or Cyric or Myrkul or whatever evil god has the job this week). As some desert cultures associate the west with the lands of the dead, this may simply be a verse spoken at dusk by those Netherese who felt supremely betrayed by Amaunator.
It's not meant to say that Lathander is really Amaunator's son, or reincarnation, or anything of the sort. It's not a true reallocation of Amaunator's former power, as the only portfolio element that is still claimed by any god is "rulership" (Siamorphe)- there is no god of bureaucracy, contracts, law, order or the sun.
However, Lathander's name is invoked when a contract is undertaken. He's the god of the dawn. He's the patron of many aristocrats and nobles. So, even if we don't view him as somehow spawned of Amaunator (and I do not), perhaps there is some credence to the idea that beliefs once attached to the god of the sun have somehow made their way into conceptions of Lathander.
Hi, I'm really interested in learning something more about the god Kozah, that you say is the Netherese and Bedine name of Talos. Where can I find some more info about him? I've the "Empire of Netheril" but I wuold be really interested to find some doc, where there is the explanation, of which god have survived frome the time of the magical human empire or, which other god have replaced the forgotten/dead one.
Thank you in advance, bye. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2004 : 18:49:01
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The information about Kozah being Talos can be found in several sources, including Faiths and Avatars (the 2nd Edition sourcebook), Anauroch, and Races of Faerūn.
There is currently no document I know of available that conveniently details shifts in the divine landscape; generally, Realmslore hounds need to cobble this information together from several disparate (if not contradictory) sources. The gods of Netheril, however, are a bit easier to handle:
Amaunator died, and is addressed above along with the various possibilities for "his successor(s)." Jannath was and is Chauntea. The portfolio once held by Jergal was divided up among Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (whose fates are detailed elsewhere), though he remains a deity. Talos is Kozah, Moander remained as a deity of the same name until its destruction, Mystryl was killed by Karsus and reborn as Mystra, Targus is now Garagos, Tyche divided into Tymora and Beshaba, and Selūne and Shar remain essentially unchanged from their existence in the time of Netheril.
Hope this helps. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 15:53:56
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Well, as I've pointed out before, there are also portfolios that have never been covered by any deity of the Faerūnian pantheon. So there are reasons a portfolio could remain unclaimed -- most likely, there is not enough potential power in a given portfolio for someone to bother with it. After all, just because a deity holds a portfolio doesn't mean someone is going to worship. In Finder's Bane, Ilsensine stated that it was surprised the Realms didn't have a god of cups and saucers. And while some deity could certainly pick up the portfolios of cups and saucers, what would be the point?
So, even given the fact that Amaunator is apparently returning in the Shattered Realms, I don't think it telling that some of his portfolios were ignored by other deities. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 17:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
It's like the Sage was touched by the hand of Alaundo five years ago...
Wooly's reply would pretty much match my own at this point. There are plenty of portfolios left floating in the divine either, having been unclaimed for quite some time -- like the Time portfolio itself. I'm content to believe that the Time portfolio is currently unclaimed in the human pantheons... it's largely supported by the lore and we've seen nothing to suggest otherwise at this point.
Sometimes, designers don't want to be definitive about this stuff until some future project [they may have something in mind at the time of writing, but cannot specifically detail it right there and then] called for it. In other words, leave room for further development.
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Edited by - The Sage on 21 Apr 2008 17:11:56 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 18:23:43
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| Also, people speculate about dead deities someday coming back all the time--it's a fertile plot hook, and in some cases it's actually happened (Bane). I don't think it's particularly uncanny or prophetic that this one supposition (ie. Amaunator coming back) among many turned out to be true. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Apr 2008 18:25:34 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 21:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Wow. OK, I guess I'll just keep my gentle pokes of amusement to myself from here on in.
Sorry, I didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 21:55:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Wow. OK, I guess I'll just keep my gentle pokes of amusement to myself from here on in.
Sorry, I didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way.
Ditto.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 01:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Wow. OK, I guess I'll just keep my gentle pokes of amusement to myself from here on in.
Why? I understand where you were coming with the prophet angle and such, and really, it's a tribute to be compared to the great Alaundo [the Seer, and not the Candlekeep Webmaster {sorry Big Al }]. But when I wrote that bit back in '03, I was just speculating on the fact that some portfolios that have become unclaimed, never seem to shift to new deities. And that it could possibly indicate that Amaunator would be ressurected again at some point in the future because a designer or two wasn't finished telling the Yellow God's story.
And if you want to continute your gentle pokes of amusement at my expense, I say go right ahead. I can certainly be an easy target. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 03:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And if you want to continute your gentle pokes of amusement at my expense, I say go right ahead. I can certainly be an easy target.
Especially when you use words like "continute"! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 23:10:23
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If one does not subscribe to the Risen Sun heresy or the Three-Faced Sun heresy, to whom does one assign the portfolio of "all time" -- a handy thing for a "dying" god to possess!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 03:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
If one does not subscribe to the Risen Sun heresy or the Three-Faced Sun heresy, to whom does one assign the portfolio of "all time" -- a handy thing for a "dying" god to possess!
Amaunator claimed it, but didn't enforce it. Mystryl was the guardian of the timestream, so she was the de facto holder of Time. Assumably, this passed to Mystras 1.0 and 2.0, though neither of them enforced it.
Time is one of those pointless portfolios. Unless you have some seriously precision time-keeping devices and/or a buttload of time travelers, there is no point to enforcing the portfolio. It's like Ilsensine's reference to a god of cups and saucers -- sure, someone could grab that portfolio, but why would they? |
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Amaunator's Portfolio
