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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:56:24
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Compared to many here I am sorely lacking in the realmslore that I have absorbed, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
But these lastest changes have made something obvious to me. Or have the mayhaps lain bare Wotc's real agenda?
The more official words I read, the more the realms is becoming like Dragonlance after the War of Souls. I love DL, don't get me wrong, but always felt that is where they "jumped the shark". Lost me as a buyer of products that aren't set in the past anyways.
Maybe I am crazy but here is what I see:
Krynn - Widespread Magic and kingdoms ended by a world changing Cataclysm. Changing not only magic, but the land and peoples.
Faerun - Spellplague. ex. see Cataclysm
Krynn - with events of Takhisis "hiding the world away", Magic user from Krynn must rediscover how to access magic. Overall, much less magic than before.
Faerun - with exception of The world being hidden from other Gods, Faerun's magic users are said to have to "rediscover" how to access magic. Much less magic that before.
Krynn- after a long history with no race of this type. A Dragon-Man race is introduced.
Faerun - same as above. Yes we have not heard of any spectacular "death scenes" from dragonborn, but the coincidence is spooky.
Krynn - If you dont like an out come use time travel. ie. War of the twins.
Faerun - If you dont like that the timeline shift will leave your PC as rotting bones.....The Campaign Guide will have advice for moving your characters to the new time period...via ... Time Travel!
Let me know if I missed anything!
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:59:20
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You mean Krynn before the War of Souls...the time when there weren't any gods around at all.. 
and no, you are right...it seems very familiar |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 17:10:02
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| Well there are some likenesses, but not all that much. The changes done to Krynn didn't exactly get an unanimous applause either. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 17:36:52
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On one hand, I do think they have made some "Krynn" mistakes. I think the massive change to the game setting with a serious time gap while transitioning to a new game system just screams out Fifth Age/Saga, but at the same time, I don't see them, in setting, altering Forgotten Realms to match the same kind of overall theme that Krynn has.
Then again, I think in some ways the designers not thinking that the Realms has a theme shows that they have missed the theme entirely, which is that the Realms really tries to feel like what a real world would feel like if D&Disms existed (and before Ed merged it with the D&D game system, what a high fantasy/sword and sorcery world would feel like if real).
That having been said, the flat out statement in Races and Classes that they are wanted halflings to be more like kender shows that they are willing to cannibalize other settings and cut and paste them into other settings, even if it isn't a good fit. Its not so much making the Realms into Krynn, but taking what is good about the Realms, Krynn, Eberron, Greyhawk, and mushing it all together so that its homogenized.
Given that the best "theme" they really have is that there should be unique monsters in a setting to kill (after all, Dragonlance is about killing draconians . . . I'm sure Kang would appreciate hearing that), I don't think they want to deal with the fact that the differences in some campaign worlds aren't big and bold, but nuanced and subtle, though still important. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 13 Jan 2008 17:37:19 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 17:56:58
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| I don't think that in 4th ed will be less magic than before. The weave is gone, but Faerun will remain a high magic setting. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:51:35
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| Well, it does feel to me that the Official Forgotten Realms Setting has indeed "jumped the shark". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Agis_of_Asticles
Acolyte
Brazil
17 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 07:42:45
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| I know just a little about Dragonlance, but I see the similarity too. |
Sorry guys. Bad english, I know.
“While the wise may worship, only fools bow and wait.”
A North’s saying [FR]
Suporting the petition to our local [Brazil] publisher of Wizards [Devir] to publish more translated books. [http://www.petitiononline.com/DevirRPG/petition.html] |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 16:20:31
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Nope.
Sure there are similarities but there are similarities in all fantasy settings.
People like dragons and draconic beings, thus there are more dragon type playable things.
I don't think FR will be a low magic setting ever, nor do I think the power level will be the same.
I don't think FR will move towards a . . . oh, I forget the magic users society in Krynn. . . I'm actually amazed that I can't think of it, been a while.
Anyhow, while there are some similarities I don't think that FR will be like Krynn anymore than FR will be like Dark Sun. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 16:21:01
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Ok, maybe Dark Sun was extreme. ;)
Anymore than it'll be like Greyhawk. ;D |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 16:25:11
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| I see this similarities too, but I´m hoping that this will not be the point, specially concerning magic - from what we are seeing, we will have much more magic options to Faerûn, and that´s a good thing. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
"jumped the shark"
What does this mean? I see this term pop up occasionally but am not familiar with it. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:45:20
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
"The term jumping the shark alludes to a specific scene in a 1977 episode of the TV series Happy Days when the popular character Arthur "Fonzie" Fonzarelli jumps over a shark while water skiing. The scene was so preposterous that many believed it to be an ill-conceived attempt at reviving the declining ratings of the flagging show. Since then, the phrase has become a colloquialism[1] used by U.S. TV critics and fans to denote the point at which the characters or plot of a TV series veer into a ridiculous, out-of-the-ordinary storyline. Such a show is typically deemed to have passed its peak. Once a show has "jumped the shark" fans sense a noticeable decline in quality or feel the show has undergone too many changes to retain its original charm." |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:45:33
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
"jumped the shark"
What does this mean? I see this term pop up occasionally but am not familiar with it.
Google knows all!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
:D |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 19:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
"The term jumping the shark alludes to a specific scene in a 1977 episode of the TV series Happy Days when the popular character Arthur "Fonzie" Fonzarelli jumps over a shark while water skiing. The scene was so preposterous that many believed it to be an ill-conceived attempt at reviving the declining ratings of the flagging show. Since then, the phrase has become a colloquialism[1] used by U.S. TV critics and fans to denote the point at which the characters or plot of a TV series veer into a ridiculous, out-of-the-ordinary storyline. Such a show is typically deemed to have passed its peak. Once a show has "jumped the shark" fans sense a noticeable decline in quality or feel the show has undergone too many changes to retain its original charm."
In that case, the Realms jumped the shark just about after Silver Marches was released |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 19:26:31
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| Thank you all for your help in the clarification of that term. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ladejarl
Seeker
Norway
55 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 19:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
In that case, the Realms jumped the shark just about after Silver Marches was released
I hate to agree with you on this but I do. |
"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world." |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 19:35:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ladejarl
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
In that case, the Realms jumped the shark just about after Silver Marches was released
I hate to agree with you on this but I do.
You hate to agree with me?  That's new...normally people just hate me  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 10:59:26
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The Forgettable Realms becoming "Krynnish"? Balderdash, I say! Just ask any of the gnomes in my (very) "low fantasy" campaign, who, discovering that they could not get their oxen to walk backward into a castle where they were to store their "canons" (they are magical items sacred to Gond, so they are now called "canons" instead of the earlier "Gondian Death Bells") ... ahem! ... just ask any of the gnomes who thought that the way to solve the problem was to build a gigantic spiral track overhead, start the oxen at one end and then run them as fast as possible in a loop-de-loop to get them into the castle. They'll tell you that that there's nothing "Krynnish" about the Realms!
(Incidentally, they are still working out the problem presented by the fact that if the oxen go forward on an upright spiral track, they will wind up -- if not dead on their backs -- simply walking into the castle head-first. Even without Lisa Simpson's help, though, they know that the oxen must go go very fast while upside down or else they will fall, probably breaking their backs and the "canons" of Gond. There's nothing Krynnish about that sort of logical thinking!)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 17:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ladejarl
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
In that case, the Realms jumped the shark just about after Silver Marches was released
I hate to agree with you on this but I do.
Really? I found that all 3.0 and 3.5 Realms products (except some of the adventures) have been beautifully made. The accessories are all full of juicy fluff, with one or two statted NPCs here and there so as to save time to the DM.
All iconic Realms monsters presented in Magic of Faerun have been updated to 3.5 in LEotR (i.e. Nishruu, Dread Warrior, Tressym, etc.) CoV introduces new good organizations and a succulent Knight of the North dire hawk riding PrC...
I think the shark is the Spellplague and the rest of the post 1375 DR timeline ideas, and instead of jumping it, the designers have simply decided to send Fonzie straight into the Great White's jaws...  |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2008 : 04:01:33
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I vehemently disagree!
It's an Orca. not a shark.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 16:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I vehemently disagree!
It's an Orca. not a shark.
But it was a dolphin (first rather benign sea creature of similar stature that I could think of). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 19:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I vehemently disagree!
It's an Orca. not a shark.
But it was a dolphin (first rather benign sea creature of similar stature that I could think of).
A dolphin? hehehe, and WotC are the thuna-fishing folks that kill the dolphins they catch |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 19:53:56
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Dragonlance... Greyhawk... Mystara... Eberron... Birthright... Warcraft... Scarred Lands... World of Darkness... Midnight...
Abeir-Toril has long been established as the 'World of Portals', with connections that lead throughout the multiverse, to other primes, and other planes. In the past, developers have embraced this, and given us a rich tapestry that we can set our own stories against. Sure, little bits of this and that have been creeping in, but isn't that part of what the Forgotten Realms is all about? It's built-in to the very name of the setting!
However, instead of embracing the majesty and wonder of one of the settings unique features, and giving us a 'taste' of what 'might-have-been', they are beating us over the head with it, trying to establish a 'theme' for the setting. Majestic landscapes have become 60's album covers, and mysterious portals have become 'cosmic trash chutes'. 
Its not that we are getting Dragonlance in FR; its that we are getting a whole lot of everything! We have become the universe's 'Dumping Ground', and 'junk' from all over is spilling in. They 'claim' FR is not core, yet they are making sure every single thing in core makes it into FR... and we have no LOGO! Eberron has a logo in 4e, yet we do not... if that doesn't put the lie to their promises about FR being core, I don't know what does.
A little quote -
quote:
Originally from Blood Spawn
When Two Worlds were One...
The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation...
Does that sound like the Spellplague and the seperation of Abeir and Toril to you? Well, guess what? That was taken from a Birthright product! I'm not saying someone is turning FR in Birthright, just as I wouldn't agree with the OP that we are turning into Dragonlance... but it appears that parts of FR are turning into a whole lot of something else.
You know that game 'kids' play when they are teenagers, trying to figure out the 'perfect guy/gal' by listing what body parts from different celebrities/scoolmates would make the perfect mix?
Well, it looks like they've gone and applied that to game settings. All of those settings I mentioned have their good points, and each is great in its own way, but 'gluiing' them all together in a veritable 'Hodge-podge' over our beloved Forgotten Realms just doesn't work. What's great in another setting usually only 'smells bad' when moved elsewhere.
And the Spellplague is the glue they are using to hold this 4e 'setting Montage' together.
Not a rant - just an observation. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 21:42:06
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Well, it wasn't actually a rant..
more like 'my view on things' - Take it with a grain of salt.
And besides, last time I checked, you didn't have 'Rants" copyrighted. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2008 21:42:27 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 22:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, it wasn't actually a rant..
more like 'my view on things' - Take it with a grain of salt.
And besides, last time I checked, you didn't have 'Rants" copyrighted.
Yea, but wouldn't it be cool if I did |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Agis_of_Asticles
Acolyte
Brazil
17 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 22:14:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Dragonlance... Greyhawk... Mystara... Eberron... Birthright... Warcraft... Scarred Lands... World of Darkness... Midnight...
Abeir-Toril has long been established as the 'World of Portals', with connections that lead throughout the multiverse, to other primes, and other planes. In the past, developers have embraced this, and given us a rich tapestry that we can set our own stories against. Sure, little bits of this and that have been creeping in, but isn't that part of what the Forgotten Realms is all about? It's built-in to the very name of the setting!
The problem is: Planescape were the setting for this. Not FR. In the Realms we ever have a bit of it, but after the 3e, it IS the reality of the world. Seems to me the designers are tring to "compensate" the lack of the extinct Planescape. Another thing that doesn't work to me.
quote:
You know that game 'kids' play when they are teenagers, trying to figure out the 'perfect guy/gal' by listing what body parts from different celebrities/scoolmates would make the perfect mix?
Well, it looks like they've gone and applied that to game settings. All of those settings I mentioned have their good points, and each is great in its own way, but 'gluiing' them all together in a veritable 'Hodge-podge' over our beloved Forgotten Realms just doesn't work. What's great in another setting usually only 'smells bad' when moved elsewhere.
And the Spellplague is the glue they are using to hold this 4e 'setting Montage' together.
Not a rant - just an observation.
And I totaly agree with you on this. |
Sorry guys. Bad english, I know.
“While the wise may worship, only fools bow and wait.”
A North’s saying [FR]
Suporting the petition to our local [Brazil] publisher of Wizards [Devir] to publish more translated books. [http://www.petitiononline.com/DevirRPG/petition.html] |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 07:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its not that we are getting Dragonlance in FR; its that we are getting a whole lot of everything! We have become the universe's 'Dumping Ground', and 'junk' from all over is spilling in. They 'claim' FR is not core, yet they are making sure every single thing in core makes it into FR... and we have no LOGO! Eberron has a logo in 4e, yet we do not... if that doesn't put the lie to their promises about FR being core, I don't know what does.
When they introduced Eberron, they actually set out to find a place for everything. It was their selling point to get people into the setting. Doing the same in FR seems like a natural transition if they don't want to leave the Realms out of future supplements. Plus, with 4th they're hoping to draw in a new crowd -- thus, they want more "stuff" in the Realms. However, I've always believed that everything already existed in the Realms. And if it didn't, there were more than enough empty spaces for a DM to plug something in that he felt was missing. It would be easier though (on a DM), if it were already explicitly there.
As a fan of DL and FR (and Mystara and Dark Sun) I wouldn't have a problem if they incorporated some of that setting. Exploding bozaks are really cool! To the original post (Red Walker), you made some excellent comparisons. However, the Realms has experienced all those events before: change in the Weave, Karsus' Folly and resultant "network crash", death-appointment-rebirth of gods, "whoa, where did this Creator race come from?", and every setting has a modicum of time travel. In fact, the portal in Vilhon has been there for a long, long time. So I'm not sure that it spells an agenda as much as it more strongly uses what was already there.
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Are Events Changing Faerun into Krynn?
