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Rollo Ruttikin
Acolyte
USA
26 Posts |
 Posted - 15 May 2008 : 22:08:27
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Well said Mace!
Huzzah!
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QueenofShadows
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 20:02:21
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| I think I will continue with the Realms in my own vision and my group forgetting 4th editon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 20:20:07
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Everyone should use and do whatever is best for them and their group. Thats the way its always been, and even the most 'canonical' campaigns diverged from the official one as soon as the first session began.
Hell, I moved entire countries around, and I actualy thought the Realms were fantastic as-is.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 09:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Truth be told, you founders of the new Realms could have and should have created a new world, and not resort to phoney pretense of an attempt to save what you perceive as the true Realms experience.
But they did create a new world! They just kept the name because the brand sells.
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
A necrophiliac has more respect for its victims!
By Vhaeraun's Oedipus Complex that's harsh...but fair. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 31 Jul 2008 09:51:08 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 09:35:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Just curious, was the channel ever finished, if so what where the consequences for trade? I kept away from these novels, as I hated the channel idea and have huge problems with Rand.
It was almost finished but the builder blows it up at the end of the trilogy, thus causing it to be uncomplete.
 That's funny and very apt considering. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 09:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't much care for the term "fluff" when referring to the source material of a game setting. I prefer the term "lore" in general, when talking about the source material of fantasy settings, or the more specific "Realmslore" when referring to the material of FR.
Hear, hear! I find the term "fluff" to be derogatory. Moreover after living in the Netherlands for a few years I discovered that it's rather a coarse swear-word there. At least, when I told a student he had some fluff in his hair his initial reaction was shock followed by laughter. He then told me what it meant. Let's just say that it would definitely be on George Carlin's list.
Getting back onto topic, I dislike how these terms crunch and fluff have appeared. It's as if someone has deliberately tried to make anyone who takes an interest in the setting, its background and its history into a contemptible person. There is nothing wrong with using 'setting' or 'background.' |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 10:05:16
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Why build a canal to connect the two seas?
- Get a Spelljammer to do the trips.
- Create a permanent Gate / Teleportation Circle.
Canal is such a "real world solution" that its really unstylish.
Oh wait ... Spelljammer is 1st edition and Gate / Teleportation Circle is "Wizard stuff" and they are too powerful and in need of a NERF, right? |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 31 Jul 2008 10:06:34 |
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Fire Wraith
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 10:08:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Hear, hear! I find the term "fluff" to be derogatory.
(snip)
Getting back onto topic, I dislike how these terms crunch and fluff have appeared. It's as if someone has deliberately tried to make anyone who takes an interest in the setting, its background and its history into a contemptible person. There is nothing wrong with using 'setting' or 'background.'
QFT. It definitely feels like a poor term to describe setting lore or background. I might also go so far as to say that it could be considered a deliberate attempt to separate those whose interest focuses solely on game rules, from those who are interested in story aspects.
I'm reminded of the time my friend first showed me the computer game 'DOOM'. My first response was "That looks really awesome. So what's the storyline about?" He gave me a sort of disbelieving look, and replied "Who cares? There is no story behind it." To some people, the trappings associated with a game are at best a secondary or tertiary consideration. That's not to say it's a bad thing - if they're having fun, good for them.
However, I worry that these are the kinds of fans that are being aimed at specifically now, to the detriment of those whose primary care is for the storyline. The worst thing is - there are more of them than us. World of Warcraft is a good example. For every person who roleplays, and every person who is actively interested in the ongoing storyline and lore of the world (note that they're referred to specifically as "lore nerds" in the WoW community), there are tens of thousands who are more interested in the immediate game.
But I digress.  |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 10:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
However, I worry that these are the kinds of fans that are being aimed at specifically now, to the detriment of those whose primary care is for the storyline. The worst thing is - there are more of them than us. World of Warcraft is a good example. For every person who roleplays, and every person who is actively interested in the ongoing storyline and lore of the world (note that they're referred to specifically as "lore nerds" in the WoW community), there are tens of thousands who are more interested in the immediate game.
I quit WoW half a year ago and immediately played Warcraft III campaigns again ... and loved them all. One of the reasons why I quit WoW was the stupidity of throwing away ALL previous content with a new expansion. This happened in EQ as well, but in Everquest they had one really nice event, when they changed a simple "noobie forest" to a deadly danger zone (Kithicor Forest). Sadly this was a one-time event and the countless other zones they had remained unchanged for most of the time.
IMO it is these changes in a consistent and sensible way that make a campaign "come alive". Things like wars, political and religious changes are always requiring you to be on the lookout for new "dos and do nots" in a region. When we had the Time of Troubles in the Realms it was a continous story instead of a "100 years of fog". We could simply continue playing with a few minor changes. Now WotC has used a Sledgehammer to write the 4e rules and needed to make similar changes to the campaigns to adapt them to their rule changes.
For myself I have come up with a pretty good phrase to describe changes in our societies and it fits to 4e as well:
Adventures arent experienced anymore, but are simply consumed.
This kind of attitude really goes through all of WoW and now 4e is doing the same. Everyone has to START as a hero instead of WORKING to become one. Not my style.
I hate 4e and the senseless rulechanges, but something made me laugh: The Alexandrian has actually managed to test that edition and shown with some examples that the new rules actually do the opposite of what WotC claimed it would do.
- low level fights take longer (more hp at level 1) and
- fights are much more complex because there are many more conditional modifiers
Sadly its written in a Blog format and you have to look for separate parts of the analysis. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 31 Jul 2008 11:04:11 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 11:03:27
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QFT?
quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
I'm reminded of the time my friend first showed me the computer game 'DOOM'. My first response was "That looks really awesome. So what's the storyline about?" He gave me a sort of disbelieving look, and replied "Who cares? There is no story behind it." To some people, the trappings associated with a game are at best a secondary or tertiary consideration. That's not to say it's a bad thing - if they're having fun, good for them.
However, I worry that these are the kinds of fans that are being aimed at specifically now, to the detriment of those whose primary care is for the storyline. The worst thing is - there are more of them than us.
My own reaction when I encountered DOOM was the same. That's fun! I want a go. As you say there's nothing wrong with a good PC game. However, D&D was inspired by fiction and by playing games with toy soldiers (if I've recalled correctly). Fiction draws you in with the story. Playing with toy soldiers is much more fun if you're imagining yourself as Alexander the Great, Alfred the Great or King Arthur to name a few. Stripping away the background leaves only the rules, which creates a big problem. Namely, a computer can do all the dice rolls and consulting of tables quicker and to the satisfaction of most players.
The fact that there is more of them than us doesn't bother me. It's clear that WotC see them as a big market. And OK, try and attract a share of them but, and this is most important, not to the detriment of an established market. Increasing market share is good business but decreasing an established market that was giving a good income is very poor business.
D&D as a game is very simply. Throw some dice, then add the modifiers to determine the result. The rulebooks are just there to standardise it all. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 11:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
For myself I have come up with a pretty good phrase to describe changes in our societies and it fits to 4e as well:
Adventures arent experienced anymore, but are simply consumed.
This kind of attitude really goes through all of WoW and now 4e is doing the same. Everyone has to START as a hero instead of WORKING to become one. Not my style.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say adventurers aren't experienced any more. Surely how experienced an adventurer is just depends on their level doesn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I hate 4e and the senseless rulechanges, but something made me laugh: The Alexandrian has actually managed to test that edition and shown with some examples that the new rules actually do the opposite of what WotC claimed it would do.
This is quite a classic from that blog, thanks for the link:
quote:
And the dissociated mechanics in the Monster Manual are just actively painful to read. I think my "favorite" of the moment is the cyclops who has better depth perception because he only has one eye.
... I wish to God I was making that up:
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Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 13:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Why build a canal to connect the two seas?
- Get a Spelljammer to do the trips.
- Create a permanent Gate / Teleportation Circle.
Canal is such a "real world solution" that its really unstylish.
Oh wait ... Spelljammer is 1st edition and Gate / Teleportation Circle is "Wizard stuff" and they are too powerful and in need of a NERF, right?
Spelljammer was 2nd edition. 
Besides, ships capable of spelljamming are very expensive. For the price of say 4 spelljammers, you could build a whole lot of canal. And a canal could handle more cargo, since you'd not be limited to a handful of ships. Lastly, in a setting with no aviation to speak of, a flying ship would be desired by a lot of people, many of whom would be more than happy to kill its existing owners to get it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 13:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
For myself I have come up with a pretty good phrase to describe changes in our societies and it fits to 4e as well:
Adventures arent experienced anymore, but are simply consumed.
This kind of attitude really goes through all of WoW and now 4e is doing the same. Everyone has to START as a hero instead of WORKING to become one. Not my style.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say adventurers aren't experienced any more. Surely how experienced an adventurer is just depends on their level doesn't it?
Adventure, not adventurer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 13:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
However, I worry that these are the kinds of fans that are being aimed at specifically now, to the detriment of those whose primary care is for the storyline. The worst thing is - there are more of them than us. World of Warcraft is a good example. For every person who roleplays, and every person who is actively interested in the ongoing storyline and lore of the world (note that they're referred to specifically as "lore nerds" in the WoW community), there are tens of thousands who are more interested in the immediate game.
I quit WoW half a year ago and immediately played Warcraft III campaigns again ... and loved them all. One of the reasons why I quit WoW was the stupidity of throwing away ALL previous content with a new expansion. This happened in EQ as well, but in Everquest they had one really nice event, when they changed a simple "noobie forest" to a deadly danger zone (Kithicor Forest). Sadly this was a one-time event and the countless other zones they had remained unchanged for most of the time.
IMO it is these changes in a consistent and sensible way that make a campaign "come alive". Things like wars, political and religious changes are always requiring you to be on the lookout for new "dos and do nots" in a region. When we had the Time of Troubles in the Realms it was a continous story instead of a "100 years of fog". We could simply continue playing with a few minor changes. Now WotC has used a Sledgehammer to write the 4e rules and needed to make similar changes to the campaigns to adapt them to their rule changes.
For myself I have come up with a pretty good phrase to describe changes in our societies and it fits to 4e as well:
Adventures arent experienced anymore, but are simply consumed.
This kind of attitude really goes through all of WoW and now 4e is doing the same. Everyone has to START as a hero instead of WORKING to become one. Not my style.
I hate 4e and the senseless rulechanges, but something made me laugh: The Alexandrian has actually managed to test that edition and shown with some examples that the new rules actually do the opposite of what WotC claimed it would do.
- low level fights take longer (more hp at level 1) and
- fights are much more complex because there are many more conditional modifiers
Sadly its written in a Blog format and you have to look for separate parts of the analysis.
I played WoW for a few months, then bailed on it for two reasons: there was absolutely no roleplaying built into the game, and I got tired of the endless grinding.
The lack of roleplaying is part of why I'm not interested in D&D Extreme. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Jul 2008 13:47:40 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 13:49:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Adventure, not adventurer.
 Oops! Thanks for pointing that one out.
*surreptitiously dusts laptop screen* |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 14:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
For myself I have come up with a pretty good phrase to describe changes in our societies and it fits to 4e as well:
Adventures arent experienced anymore, but are simply consumed.
This kind of attitude really goes through all of WoW and now 4e is doing the same. Everyone has to START as a hero instead of WORKING to become one. Not my style.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say adventurers aren't experienced any more. Surely how experienced an adventurer is just depends on their level doesn't it?
Well its more or less a comment on the fact that everything nowadays needs to be "convenient" and "easy to understand" and such ... with no work included.
Example from WoW: The PvP-Arena system: You simply have to spend maybe two hours per week to get an epic (highest quality) item every 3-6 weeks compared to taking random chances and MUCH more time in regular raiding.
Example from holidays: Nowadays you fly to Italy from Germany, but 30-40 years ago the people drove all the way in relatively slow cars and experienced the land inbetween. The same is true for climbing many mountains ... nowadays there are loads of roads built to some mountaintops so the lazy people (99%) can simply drive up instead of having to walk up there. I am thinking about many locations in the german "Mittelgebirge" there.
Basically the phrase also refers to the laziness expressed in: "I wont read the book, I will wait for the movie." ... reward without effort. IMO 4th edition somewhat caters to the "I wanna be a hero [from level 1]!" crowd with loads of flashy maneuvers which beginners in a martial art shouldnt have. So IMO the campaign will "deteriorate" into a somewhat comicish style with maneuvers.
IMO it is necessary to work for a reward ... kinda like taking a "beautifully crafted longsword engraved with magic runes [...]" from a dead opponent after a long fight rather than simply paying X gold pieces in a shop for a "longsword +2". |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 31 Jul 2008 14:49:52 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 15:07:17
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Thank you for the elaboration, which was wonderful. I agree with you as well. I was never a big fan of swords that went beyond +2. +1 was special and dealt with nearly everything and +2 was just one louder.
The beauty of role-playing. for me, is solving problems with the tools to hand. Now it seems the solution is just to buy a better tool. Clearly, consumerism has now spread from the real world into D&D.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Nowadays you fly to Italy from Germany, but 30-40 years ago the people drove all the way in relatively slow cars and experienced the land inbetween.
But that land in between is Switzerland!  And it's a bit odd, isn't it.  P.S. There are still slow cars driving in Germany but they're the Dutch with their caravans. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Fire Wraith
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 21:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I played WoW for a few months, then bailed on it for two reasons: there was absolutely no roleplaying built into the game, and I got tired of the endless grinding.
The lack of roleplaying is part of why I'm not interested in D&D Extreme.
Roleplaying is possible in WoW. That doesn't mean it's encouraged or aided in any way. It's more like swimming against the current, really. It's easy enough to see that the world just isn't built for it. Even something so simple as an Inn with chairs you can sit down in is a rarity (especially for the Horde side). I would honestly love a full roleplaying style version of Azeroth, where people could actually talk to the other side... but I digress.
I think there's a good way to make a roleplaying-style MMO. However, roleplayers have consistently been a vague afterthought in the MMO world. I worry when I see the designers of D&D/FR trying to move towards that model, or using it as an example of the ideal. It makes money, yes - but that doesn't mean it's good for that group of us that are truly interested in the lore/story/roleplaying side of things. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 22:02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
I think there's a good way to make a roleplaying-style MMO. However, roleplayers have consistently been a vague afterthought in the MMO world. I worry when I see the designers of D&D/FR trying to move towards that model, or using it as an example of the ideal. It makes money, yes - but that doesn't mean it's good for that group of us that are truly interested in the lore/story/roleplaying side of things.
Ah, but will it make money, that's the question. If you are trying to persuade people to put down their keyboards and mice and move away from the monitor then you had best have something as interesting, as addictive and as functional. Computer games handle all the mechanics, they're addictive because many people focus on "levelling up" (which is a bit of an oxymoron) and they have graphics.
Making tabletop D&D more mechanics flavoured and lowering the emphasis on role-play is a mistake in my opinion. You're essentially asking the players of computer games to pick up die, consult tables and read books. You're asking them to put aside the flashy graphics that comes with casing a spell, or the spray of blood and the very satisfactory noise that comes with using a vorpal blade on an orc, and describe it all instead. You're asking the boy in Maine who sometimes goes hunting with his dad at weekends to stop chatting to the overweight girl in California who reads a lot of great fiction. There's no way those two would get around the same kitchen table because their computers and their link to the internet are much more cheaper than travelling.
I don't think you can offer a hardback option with static images and hope it'll compete with a computer game.
If you're offering something different then you might get there. And the difference is role-play. The difference is being able to have a DM award XP when a rogue springs a trap or when the players come up with a wonderful solution to a problem or when a player acts superbly in-character. In role-play there are hundreds of potential solutions to a problem. It's unpredictability is its appeal. In a computer game you have to code in the answer/s. Its appeal is it looks good and appeals to the eye. Role-play appeals to the mind. Both can and do appeal to the imagination but with role-play turning imagination into game reality is so much easier.
To take a similar example, in spite of television and cinema books are still sold. The media used to tell the stories are different and each medium has its own advantages. Books, for example, allow for good character development and interesting side plots.
If you played D&D to its strengths then you'd have a product. Trying to imitate a very successful market with the wrong tools is just plain daft.
*stands down off the soapbox* |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 31 Jul 2008 22:24:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 22:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I played WoW for a few months, then bailed on it for two reasons: there was absolutely no roleplaying built into the game, and I got tired of the endless grinding.
The lack of roleplaying is part of why I'm not interested in D&D Extreme.
Roleplaying is possible in WoW. That doesn't mean it's encouraged or aided in any way. It's more like swimming against the current, really. It's easy enough to see that the world just isn't built for it. Even something so simple as an Inn with chairs you can sit down in is a rarity (especially for the Horde side). I would honestly love a full roleplaying style version of Azeroth, where people could actually talk to the other side... but I digress.
Sure, it's possible. But, as I said, it's not built into the game. It's something a player has to consciously do, and that has no bearing on the gameplay itself. A quest-giver, for example, is going to give you the same quest and reward for it, regardless of whether or not you accept the quest immediately, how long it takes you to complete it, or what you say to him/her/it (if anything at all). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 23:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
I think there's a good way to make a roleplaying-style MMO. However, roleplayers have consistently been a vague afterthought in the MMO world. I worry when I see the designers of D&D/FR trying to move towards that model, or using it as an example of the ideal. It makes money, yes - but that doesn't mean it's good for that group of us that are truly interested in the lore/story/roleplaying side of things.
Ah, but will it make money, that's the question. If you are trying to persuade people to put down their keyboards and mice and move away from the monitor then you had best have something as interesting, as addictive and as functional. Computer games handle all the mechanics, they're addictive because many people focus on "levelling up" (which is a bit of an oxymoron) and they have graphics.
Making tabletop D&D more mechanics flavoured and lowering the emphasis on role-play is a mistake in my opinion. You're essentially asking the players of computer games to pick up die, consult tables and read books. You're asking them to put aside the flashy graphics that comes with casing a spell, or the spray of blood and the very satisfactory noise that comes with using a vorpal blade on an orc, and describe it all instead. You're asking the boy in Maine who sometimes goes hunting with his dad at weekends to stop chatting to the overweight girl in California who reads a lot of great fiction. There's no way those two would get around the same kitchen table because their computers and their link to the internet are much more cheaper than travelling.
I don't think you can offer a hardback option with static images and hope it'll compete with a computer game.
If you're offering something different then you might get there. And the difference is role-play. The difference is being able to have a DM award XP when a rogue springs a trap or when the players come up with a wonderful solution to a problem or when a player acts superbly in-character. In role-play there are hundreds of potential solutions to a problem. It's unpredictability is its appeal. In a computer game you have to code in the answer/s. Its appeal is it looks good and appeals to the eye. Role-play appeals to the mind. Both can and do appeal to the imagination but with role-play turning imagination into game reality is so much easier.
To take a similar example, in spite of television and cinema books are still sold. The media used to tell the stories are different and each medium has its own advantages. Books, for example, allow for good character development and interesting side plots.
If you played D&D to its strengths then you'd have a product. Trying to imitate a very successful market with the wrong tools is just plain daft.
*stands down off the soapbox*
I think the reason MMOs are outperforming simple pen-and-paper games is that MMOs are simply more convenient.
In an MMO, you have a one-time payment for the software, and maybe a one-time payment for the hardware (which, most importantly, has a variety of other uses, which include schoolwork, business, casual stuff, and other MMOs). You have a low recurring cost every month. In RPGs, you have an often higher up-front payment for the main rulebooks, and then you have more constantly being released -- until the lot of them are replaced by an edition change, a few years later.
In an MMO, you can sit down and start playing without doing any homework or prep. You'll likely figure out all the rules and everything just by playing, and once you've got a few key combinations figured out, you're set. In an RPG, you've got to learn the rules, spend time generating a character, create a backstory, etc. This is a significant part of what's hurting D&D -- too many people want to jump in right now, without bothering with reading books or taking more than a couple minutes to generate a character.
In an MMO, you play at your convenience -- and, if you so desire, only at your convenience. Before I bailed on WoW, I had characters at levels 44, 3, and 13 -- with all of that done by myself, with no assistance at all. You can group with other people for grinding or going on raids, but you don't have to -- you can get all the way to 70th without doing a single group quest or raid. And if you do coordinate with friends, the friends can be anywhere in the world at the time. In an RPG, you can't really play without other people. So you have to coordinate schedules with friends, who have to factor in jobs, school, kids, significant others, gas costs, food/drink costs, and other priorities, all to be able to meet at one place at the same time as everyone else. More than anything else, I think this is what's killing D&D. I know it's why I've not been able to play in several years.
In an MMO, you are passively taking in pre-generated content. It doesn't matter what you do, the content will remain the same. And it's all already done by someone else. In an RPG, someone else has to generate the bulk of the content, and someone else has to present it -- even if it's a DM presenting a canon game world, he's still got to take the time to prepare it and then present it, and he can only do so for a single small group of people at a time. In an RPG, players need to use their imagination, and they have to think thru whatever happens. The players are actively helping generate content, rather than sitting back and letting it all be fed to them.
In an MMO, you can play as frequently or infrequently as you like, for however long you like. If you only have 15 minutes one week, that's fine. If you have 4 hours a day, that's fine, too. You'll progress faster the more time you put in, but it's all dependent on how much of a commitment you want to give it. And you can play any time -- if you have the time to play all day Saturday, you can. If you can't sleep at 3 AM on a Tuesday night, you can fire up the computer and grind away for a while. In an RPG, you have to give it more of a commitment to play -- not more time, necessarily, but you have to set aside a block of time on a semi-regular schedule. You can't wake up in the middle of the night and decide to play some D&D unless you live with your gaming group and they're all nocturnal. You can't get the group together to play for just 15 minutes. You can't wake up at 6:30 on Tuesday morn and decide to call in sick to play D&D all day, unless your whole group does the same.
That's why MMOs are crushing RPGs: you can jump into an MMO more quickly, more easily, more cheaply (unless you have to upgrade your computer) and without any set time commitment.
While the idea of streamlining the game does help, it's not the solution. RPGs and MMOs are totally separate beasts, despite a shared origin -- it's the whole apples and oranges thing, all over again.
WotC doesn't seem to realize this. They think that painting the orange red and breeding it to taste slightly more like an apple is all it will take to win over all the apple eaters. They've made drastic changes in the game to chase after a market that they can never be a part of. And that's what sucks the most about the whole thing. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 23:15:55
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This is a consequence of the structure of the modern computer games business, with high expectations for gameplay and especially graphics, massive development costs, companies shooting for rare huge break-out hits to subsidize their failures. To recoup that money you have to aim at the biggest possible audience, which isn't roleplayers (though some other world where people know and are comfortable with who they are, and where education fosters imagination, will differ).
It's understandable that RPG publishers have tried to sell this potentially hard-to-grasp form gradually, as souped-up board games or video games, but it causes all those problems of having to compete with games that do those things better, and fostering a culture where roleplaying is wrongly supposed to be a difficult, advanced luxury or optional extra.
So as with the books/theatre comparison, Wizards scrabbles to squeeze Hasbro-type profits from a type of activity that on the one hand won't appeal to a majority (though I think a bigger minority would like it if they knew what it was), and on the other by its nature doesn't require you to buy anything because it's essentially creative rather than consumptive, which means only a minority of players are going to buy into the extensive lines of rules supplements or setting sourcebooks the business model requires. Meanwhile those rules supplements (and especially the whole 'builds' cul-de-sac) in turn drag the culture of the game away from what would appeal to any theoretical broader audience of relatively normal people. |
Edited by - Faraer on 31 Jul 2008 23:20:56 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 05:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
It's understandable that RPG publishers have tried to sell this potentially hard-to-grasp form gradually, as souped-up board games or video games, but it causes all those problems of having to compete with games that do those things better, and fostering a culture where roleplaying is wrongly supposed to be a difficult, advanced luxury or optional extra.
Mainstream RPG publishers may go in that direction, but there is many indie games exploring different ways to play. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 08:59:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's why MMOs are crushing RPGs: you can jump into an MMO more quickly, more easily, more cheaply (unless you have to upgrade your computer) and without any set time commitment.
Although some times when you are faced with a change of game edition you stop. I enjoyed Neverwinter Nights (NWN) and was part of a persistent world server. I had a lot of fun with it too. Then came along Neverwinter Nights 2, which basically meant a new computer. After getting my old computer upgraded to run NWN nice and fast I felt damned if I was going to spend 1,000 Euros just to run a 50 Euro game.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While the idea of streamlining the game does help, it's not the solution. RPGs and MMOs are totally separate beasts, despite a shared origin -- it's the whole apples and oranges thing, all over again.
WotC doesn't seem to realize this. They think that painting the orange red and breeding it to taste slightly more like an apple is all it will take to win over all the apple eaters. They've made drastic changes in the game to chase after a market that they can never be a part of. And that's what sucks the most about the whole thing.
It does seem as though WotC are trying to part of a teen market, which is basically trend orientated. The problem is a few years down the line trend die. They would have been more clever to have gone for the older market.
Maybe the Book of Erotic Fantasy was the way to go. Obviously not that particular direction but a direction that involved mature role-playing which relies upon solving moral dilemmas.
(I'd love to write a bit more about this but I have to go to a seminar.) |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 09:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I played WoW for a few months, then bailed on it for two reasons: there was absolutely no roleplaying built into the game, and I got tired of the endless grinding.
The lack of roleplaying is part of why I'm not interested in D&D Extreme.
Roleplaying is possible in WoW. That doesn't mean it's encouraged or aided in any way. It's more like swimming against the current, really. It's easy enough to see that the world just isn't built for it. Even something so simple as an Inn with chairs you can sit down in is a rarity (especially for the Horde side). I would honestly love a full roleplaying style version of Azeroth, where people could actually talk to the other side... but I digress.
I dont think a computer game will ever be as easily including roleplaying until they have perfected the "direct brain input devices"(*1). Typing really slows things down AND - as I had to experience in my guild from a PvP fanatic - you cant convey emotions and feelings in typed text at all. You can try, but it will either be falling short of a true description or be a very long read (and type). Character movements and actions are also limited to what the programmers have put into the system.
So the question remains: Why try to do something which cant give you the full possibilities a human brain could?
IMO WotC should make a fourth core book: The Roleplayers tome. They could add suggestions and guidelines for all the stuff they think is unnecessary (non-actionish and off the battlemat).
(*1) There was a first attempt at a brain wave input device this year in a Californian computer convention and for some years doctors have successfully used pacemakers for the brain for Alzheimer patients. This adds up to a Matrix-style brain connection sometime in the future IMO, but I wouldnt want to have that just for being able to do stuff with the computer I could do much more easily without it. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 14:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I dont think a computer game will ever be as easily including roleplaying until they have perfected the "direct brain input devices". Typing really slows things down AND - as I had to experience in my guild from a PvP fanatic - you cant convey emotions and feelings in typed text at all. You can try, but it will either be falling short of a true description or be a very long read (and type). Character movements and actions are also limited to what the programmers have put into the system.
So the question remains: Why try to do something which cant give you the full possibilities a human brain could?
Even as a PhD student in computer sciences (KR in AI) I don't see how softwares can offer a great RPG experience.
"Baldur's Gate" kind of games don't offer more than a Dungeon module, which is heavy railroading.
MMORPG do have some emergent properties, but it is very difficult to establish a social contract between so many players and more so without any GM.
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
IMO WotC should make a fourth core book: The Roleplayers tome. They could add suggestions and guidelines for all the stuff they think is unnecessary (non-actionish and off the battlemat)
I'm curious to hear what kind of stuff you would like to find in such tome ?
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Edited by - Skeptic on 01 Aug 2008 14:55:53 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 23:55:08
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Kiaransalyn, nice points about why imitating MMORPGs isn't necessarily a winning strategy.
Of course, I'm cynical enough to believe that 4e will make money regardless of quality due to brand recognition and pandering to the WoW-aesthetic, but you provided a nice synopsis of the reasons why emulating MMORPGs is ultimately a losing strategy for PnP games.
Thankfully, I'm well rid of WotC by now. I'll play in the Realms I like with the game system of my choice. Whatever marketing people choose to do has no influence on my gaming.
As long as Ed is pleased to answer Realmslore queries and diligent scribes can point one's researches in the right direction, I neither need nor want anything from WotC. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 00:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
IMO WotC should make a fourth core book: The Roleplayers tome. They could add suggestions and guidelines for all the stuff they think is unnecessary (non-actionish and off the battlemat)
I'm curious to hear what kind of stuff you would like to find in such tome ?
The basics of "How to make a game come alive":
DM:
- Hints on when to apply the "DMs dont need to follow rules"-rule and how to make your players believe you did not "cheat". This is important to make the "big story work" sometimes.
- Hints on how to make NPCs interesting instead of stereotype. Personality traits and such are already listed in several books, so copying them shouldnt be a problem. Having "contacts" with interesting NPCs is one of the important parts - at least for me - in roleplaying, because they could give you new challenges or help you out with some hints / knowledge. Interesting in this regard does NOT mean powerful!
- Hints on how to make a City / ecology "tick" and seem real - in short: "How do I avoid logic bugs?":
- I am just now redesigning the classic "U1 - The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh" for 3.X and a big problem is: How does the city survive? Saltmarsh is surrounded by a swamp - in my version - and this poses the question: What do they eat? Answer for me: Algae for a good part (as done in a coastal town in france) and some fish.
- Simply fitting platemail on every guard in a small town is unrealistic for example ... unless you have a special means of income there which makes it rich enough.
- Not having a Wizard of level 18+ in every medium sized town is also a good thing for the logic minded IMO ... and one of the bigger problems in the FR.).
- Hints on how to make a decent adventure without violence. (riddles and how / when to add them, detective stories, social adventures in high society, ...)
Players:
- Suggestions for players to shape their characters and to give them a purpose (other than "open door - kill monsters - heal - next door") or certain characteristics for the "actual roleplaying". We had different countries in our campaign and each of them had a different language: Main country of Cherubien was german, Rem was french, Sakkaral was english and so on. One of my most beloved characters was a Wizardess from Rem, so I had to speak in a "fake female french accent". Really nice to turn off the "real life part" of your brain because you are focused more on the acting part.
This is all pretty non-game-system related, because most of the time there are not many skills (PC-stats) involved so any company could / should have written it a long time ago. Sadly with WotCs "compatible with 4e" policy on the minis they sell the current generation of kiddies wont dare to buy it if its from someone else. I already linked the Blog from The Alexandrian somewhere else, where he argues about the non-combat-skills being kicked from 4e while more combat uses are created for those that are still in the game. So it seems unlikely WotC would publish such a book to me. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 00:49:28
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Most advice published to date on how to run (and take part in) roleplaying campaigns takes for granted an awful lot that's essential but too obvious for people who can already do it well to be conscious of. Plotting, timing, acting, world-building, improvisation, how to work in groups and so on all tend to be better taught in non-RPG sources.
Which isn't to say existing DM advice isn't worth reading: it's mostly the poorer DMs, I find, who scoff at it. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 02:12:28
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Sorry Pandora, I can't reply to this without touching banned topics. |
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Their Realms are dead...
