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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 22:06:03
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SPOILER FOR UNDEAD
One of the reason promoting the Sellplague and 4e was that the chosen were too powerfull and general mucked up the world.
Spoilers for Undead ahead!!!
After reading Undead, Szass Tam is all but a CHosen of Bane in Power and action(even if he is using Bane). I quite enjoyed it in fact! But how do the Wotc explain it??? Seems like hipocracy to me. Using a fair measuring stick, Tam is way too powerful, time to hit the reset! It would be easy, another wave of blue fire a year or two after the first and presto!
There is no way in the 9 hells to adventure antwhere near Thay without Tam mucking up your campaign with his vast new sphere of influence.
I actually have no problem with it, but it sure makes it look like the Sellplague was a surgical strike meant to criple and kill Mystra and her chosen.
Thanks for reading my rant..............maybe I have overblown it, but seeing a NPC do exactly the kind of things that the chosen supposedly were guilty of just kinda burns as you swallow it ya know?
Mod Edit: RW, I've installed a more prominent SPOILER notice, since such a note won't fit in your scroll's title.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Sage on 24 Apr 2008 01:16:21
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 22:26:12
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Haven't read Undead yet, but that's ok.
As for this being a rant...nah, a vignette maybe... rants should be epic  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 22:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Haven't read Undead yet, but that's ok.
As for this being a rant...nah, a vignette maybe... rants should be epic
It really is a good book, I highly recommend it.
And nobody can rant like you my friend! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 23:57:51
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| The difference is that Szass Tam is a villain to be defeated by PCs, while Mystra's chosen were seen (by some) as superheroes who stole glory from the PCs. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 01:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The difference is that Szass Tam is a villain to be defeated by PCs, while Mystra's chosen were seen (by some) as superheroes who stole glory from the PCs.
That is a good point.
I also know many who play in such a way that Tam would be a "hero" and steal their glory |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 11:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
After reading Undead, and reading this / I agree… but there are many things that I don’t understand concerning the 4 edition. I just accept that they have ruined the realms (my opinion) and ill have nothing to do with it.
Who do you mean with 'They': the Chosen or WotC?   |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 24 Apr 2008 11:50:07 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 16:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The difference is that Szass Tam is a villain to be defeated by PCs, while Mystra's chosen were seen (by some) as superheroes who stole glory from the PCs.
Right, Szass Tam being powerful is "OK" because he's not a good guy.
Although I'd like to point out that the "Mystra's Chosen are superheroes" supposition on the part of some people is and always was incorrect. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Apr 2008 20:57:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 19:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Although I'd like to point out that the "Mystra are superheroes" supposition on the part of some people is and always was incorrect.
Indeed. But, sadly, the designers have decided to listen to the small but vocal minority of non-Realms players with this complaint. Because, when trying to "improve" things, there's no one better to listen to than someone you'll never win over, no matter what you try.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2008 : 22:26:11
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[/sarcasm]
Hey, it's all nice and peachy, the new Realms will be so awesome, because...well... the art is awesome.
[/sarcasm off]
[/vomit]
Admittedly, if they had a couple of nudes of Playmates in the new and improved Realms books, I would have to agree that the art is awesome, and I might just buy the books, but since that ain't the case... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2008 : 16:01:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Although I'd like to point out that the "Mystra are superheroes" supposition on the part of some people is and always was incorrect.
Indeed. But, sadly, the designers have decided to listen to the small but vocal minority of non-Realms players with this complaint. Because, when trying to "improve" things, there's no one better to listen to than someone you'll never win over, no matter what you try.
You said it. I don't even care to remeber all the times I've tried to argue in defense of the Realms and its NPCs at other gaming sites. Not even the most obvious logic has any affect. I.e., "YOU are the GM. If YOU do not want to have Mister Greenwood's nasty-bad NPCs 'ruining' your Realms, then don't use them!" |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 15:47:11
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Wow. So they listen to the fanbase? Meh. I've used Chosen. Hell, a while ago they saved one.
Now whoa, I know, horrid huh? The way I always saw it, the game is about the PC's, not NPC's. Never had a problem yet. However, I'd likly just impose a DM stick if the PC's do try to go to them and beg for help.
1: "Nah, sorry, gotta go fight a demon lord. But here, a little bit of help with your plan..."
2: "Sorry... I do have to deal with the politics. I understand its dangerous, but the people here need me just as much...."
3: "...Its a TRAP!"
4: <Random Joe> Oh <blah> Isn't here right now. Don't know when he'll be back though. Sorry!"
There are so many things going on in the realms. Although the PC's are heroes, the focus on their plight is more important, not the other crap that the other heroes must take care of. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 16:20:02
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| So, what's to stop Szass Tam teleporting in and annihilating a group of PC's at Level 3, hmm? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 17:30:29
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| Couldn't the spellplague have simply turned all of the chosen of Mystra insane, swithing them into powerful evil beings for the PCs to defeat? I wonder how "that" would have been received hehe |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 17:47:57
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It's ironic that Mystra and her Chosen are often the center of complaints, but Shar, Bane, and folks like Larloch aren't.
I think that it's okay to have too powerful bad guys, because that gives good guys something to work against -- and to especially relish defeating.
Too powerful good guys, on the other hand, are often simply those that can do something the PCs can't. They are an additional annoyance because despite being more powerful than the PCs, the PCs can't really fight them (they could, but it's often a stretch to have good guys trying to kill each other).
These aren't my opinions, BTW. These are simply my observations, and what I think are the origins of the "too powerful" complaint. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2008 : 22:59:46
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I like Alisttair's idea!
It would have been more interesting, a la the temptation of Elminster, to have Mystra's Chosen turned by Shar, rather than casting them aside.
Shar does seem to have all the fun running up to the Spellplague.... |
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Khaelieth
Learned Scribe
103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2008 : 10:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's ironic that Mystra and her Chosen are often the center of complaints, but Shar, Bane, and folks like Larloch aren't.
I think that it's okay to have too powerful bad guys, because that gives good guys something to work against -- and to especially relish defeating.
Szass respawns tbh. Drops phat lewts. |
Also known on other forums as ChazSexington, Kusghuul, and Claudius.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:05:58
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Precisly...But what I wanna know is what lvl you have to be to enter the Thay-instance? Is it a 10 or 25 man instance and where can you see what loot he drops. I heard he drops the full mage tier 6... NICE
!"#¤%&/()= 
One thing is for sure... My guild/group is going to kill him!!! Im fully epic geared, and fire spect... |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 02 Oct 2008 18:10:29 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 20:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The difference is that Szass Tam is a villain to be defeated by PCs, while Mystra's chosen were seen (by some) as superheroes who stole glory from the PCs.
Which is a position I really don't understand. If the Chosen steal the spotlight in the campaign it's the DM's fault, not the Chosen's. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 07:44:39
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The difference is that Szass Tam is a villain to be defeated by PCs, while Mystra's chosen were seen (by some) as superheroes who stole glory from the PCs.
Which is a position I really don't understand. If the Chosen steal the spotlight in the campaign it's the DM's fault, not the Chosen's.
Exactly, the chosen are part of the landscape kinda like a mountain. If people always are on the shadowy side of that mountain its not a problem of the mountain. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 17:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Which is a position I really don't understand. If the Chosen steal the spotlight in the campaign it's the DM's fault, not the Chosen's.
I totally agree, but the truth of the matter is WotC noticed that there was a perception about the Chosen of Mystra (and other NPCs) being a "problem", and they set out to dispel that perception in their newer products. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 18:43:25
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| I still don't like it, though. If there's a problem with the setting (i.e. that continent of dragons that wants to take over the world), then the designers should correct the canon so that's not the focus of the game. If there are some characters in the setting that are considered the (for lack of a better term) 'Justice League' of the world, then the DM shouldn't use them if he doesn't want to. In all the 20+ years of gaming in the Realms and elsewhere, I've run into the Chosen twice. The first time was because my DM was putting the Realms through a Apocalypse story and, the creatures that were threatening to destroy the realms went after the high powered characters first (good and evil, Szass and Manshoon were immobilized at the same time as the Khelben and Storm). We were level 15 in that game. The second time, we ran in to Elminster at the very start of our epic-level adventures. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 20:24:35
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You know what I think is going to happen? The same thing that happened before.
Someone intro's one or more Chosen in fiction. Regardless of whether or not it was intended, the higher-ups push those Chosen to the front, put a bunch of spotlights on them, and say, "hey, check these guys out!"
And then someone creates a Chosen to another deity, and another author creates Chosen for a third deity... Meanwhile, the first author's Chosen have been held in the spotlight continuously. And then we wind up back where we were at the end of 3E: a Chosen arms race with a group of them being the Justice League of the Realms.
And then they'll blow it all up again, to take care of the problem.
They did it once before, and I can't say I expect them not to go happily traipsing down that road again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 20:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They did it once before, and I can't say I expect them not to go happily traipsing down that road again.
Hasbro or DC Comics? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Magister Sunstrider
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 05:24:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Precisly...But what I wanna know is what lvl you have to be to enter the Thay-instance? Is it a 10 or 25 man instance and where can you see what loot he drops. I heard he drops the full mage tier 6... NICE
!"#¤%&/()=
One thing is for sure... My guild/group is going to kill him!!! Im fully epic geared, and fire spect...
I have it on good authority that the Thay zone is for lvl 20+ toons and Szass is a max-lvl boss fight that needs an uber-geared MT and at least 2 OT's and lots of aoe. But don't worry, his master plan for world domination isn't started til you zone into the instance and you have 3 tries to kill him before he gets locked til downtime. |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 10:56:07
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The Irony is, Magister Sunstrider, that I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if that were to actually come to pass.... :-(
One thing, from personal experience, that I've noticed with the "The Chosen spoil the Realms" crowd is that now, with the Chosen no longer active in the Shattred Realms, they're now hitting upon further reasons to diss the 4e Realms - apparently there are still too many Gods, there is still too much background lore, etc etc etc etc.
In other words, the people WoTc listened to never had any interest in playing the Realms in the first place... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 15:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
In other words, the people WoTc listened to never had any interest in playing the Realms in the first place...
Yeah, I'd commented previously on the fact that they were catering to someone who wasn't going to be happy with them, no matter what happened... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 15:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
In other words, the people WoTc listened to never had any interest in playing the Realms in the first place...
Yeah, I'd commented previously on the fact that they were catering to someone who wasn't going to be happy with them, no matter what happened...
Well the reduction of all things is already apparent in the basic 4e design:
- fewer alignments,
- fewer gods,
- fewer planes,
- fewer spells,
- fewer skills ...
so I dont think they had any intention of listening to "Realms fans", because its pretty apparent that fans would demand story, detail and loads of possible choices. Those three are directly opposed to the central philosophy behind the new edition. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Magister Sunstrider
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 04:11:04
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| Yes, the whole "it must be made simpler" ethos of 4E is toxic to a lore heavy, story driven setting like the Realms. The choice WotC had to in regards to 4E and FR was either nuke the whole thing so you can rebuild from the ground up or spend the next 3 years writing a real campaign setting and player's guide that altered and expanded the rules, classes, and magic system to reflect the lore and feel of the Forgotten Realms. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 05:22:15
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It's kinda funny. Before the release of the CS & PG, I told my friends that I was going to base my decision entirely on how they 'built' Elminster and Drizzt. Because, IMHO, the 3E versions of these characters are the 'truest' to their fictional abilities.
So, the books come out and ... nothing. No write-ups, no stats, no ability scores. Just a note that El's crazy and retired and not even that much on Drizzt. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 01:12:38
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I think, that no matter what any one thougt, they wanted a game as easylly to play a WOW. So no matter the age, or skills or knowledge of the realms, a 10 year old could sit down. check atlasloot and go from there...
Why would you play in a fictional world with endles stories and lore and possibilities is the whole reason for playing it in the first place, when there arent any???
To me it is apparent that they wanted money, and a tabletop computer game. And for that I can never forgive them. it is that simple. |
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A Rant? Chosen were 2 powerful, what about Szass?
