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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 01 May 2008 : 21:35:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Out of curiosity, is the PC allowed to win? And, if they do, what happens to the exarch?
Thanks!
Yep, the PCs are allowed to win (otherwise there wouldn't be much point in detailing the stats *g*) but as to what happens, well, this is how I'd roll;
If the exarch is particularly important to the deity then the deity may just resurrect the exarch. The PCs would have to figure out a way to prevent this or they'll have one angry exarch on their tail. (of course the deity may be resurrecting the exarch and making sure the exarch doesn't go off and get themselves killed all over again)
or
The PCs then have to deal with an angry god, the god's followers, the exarch's followers, etc
Either way it's not just a straight up fight, or at least it shouldn't be.
Who says the deity even needs to be involved. They may be defeatable. So is a lich, but if you don't find their phylactery, they'll be back. I would expect these Exarch's to have some kind of similar "respawn" means. It might be something as simple as forming a new body magically... or it might be as long as a rebirth in the belly of a woman who follows the patron deities faith. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 22:10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>While deities of all levels of power are now being stressed as "defeatable" for epic level >>PCs, Rich did say that defeating a god (and most likely an exarch) is meant, in the game, to >>be the type of thing that PCs will only get to do once in a lifetime, when the circumstances >>are right. That is, it's not like PCs are being encouraged to slaughter deities left and >>right as a matter of course (although of course, if a DM wants a campaign like that, there's >>nothing stopping them).
Its all a setup for when they come out with the MMORPG. The Exarch's will be the raid mobs. Then you'll have the Epic NPC's that you can only single group (Szass Tam for instance).
Oh, and yes, I'm being facetious.
Well, with the new and improved and so cool DDI and virtual game-table you can raid... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 22:12:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam for instance.
Szass Tam gets his own instance now?
Do you need a key?  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 23:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam for instance.
Szass Tam gets his own instance now?
Do you need a key?
QFL (Quoted For Laughs) |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 01:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Out of curiosity, is the PC allowed to win?
Yes, absolutely.
quote:
And, if they do, what happens to the exarch?
I guess they die, in that campaign. Of course, a DM could do whatever he wanted, and perhaps make the exarch return somehow. Although as I said, killing a god is supposed to be a finale of sorts for an epic level campaign--it's not supposed to be something common, according to the designers. One could argue that if the death of the exarch/god wasn't permanent, you'd be robbing the PCs of the satisfaction of having killed them.
Does that make sense? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 04:01:20
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| Honestly, I think the "exarchs are meant to be fought" idea is a bit silly. With 3E, if it existed, it had to be statted out so it could be fought. Even the gods were treated that way. I don't see why we need a new category to accomplish something we already had. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 04:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Honestly, I think the "exarchs are meant to be fought" idea is a bit silly. With 3E, if it existed, it had to be statted out so it could be fought. Even the gods were treated that way. I don't see why we need a new category to accomplish something we already had.
Now they're easier to beat? |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 20:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam for instance.
Szass Tam gets his own instance now?
Do you need a key?
QFL (Quoted For Laughs)
One advantage of the DDI online gametable is it is now easier to form pickup raids for taking down assorted gods and other raid targets. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 21:11:19
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| Honestly, I think the primary reason for introducing the "exarch" concept is to cut down on the number of gods in the setting without actually killing three-quarters of them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 May 2008 23:03:18 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 22:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Honestly, I think the primary reason for introducing the "exarch" concept is cut down on the number of gods in the setting without actually killing three-quarters of them.
Yep, you like Lurue, well you can make her an Exarch from where ever you like!
Got a thing for a particular racial deity? Make them an Exarch in the area where you run your game. |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 02:39:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Honestly, I think the primary reason for introducing the "exarch" concept is to cut down on the number of gods in the setting without actually killing three-quarters of them.
Exactly. They're going to allow the PCs of the Realms to do their work. Very sneaky.
Re: post about consequences of exarch's losing to PCs
I agree with what you guys wrote, and it makes sense, RF. Good GMs will make exarch-killing unpalatable.
Yet I read somewhere a post by Brian the GHotR-dude that exarchs are immortal, IIRC, in response to Wooly wanting Larue to live. But I think most players will assume defeating exarchs offs said exarch.
Perhaps immortal in this case refers to a Tolkein-esque agelessness while being able to die? If so, Larue needs to hide out in a wave-crest until 5.0 with other lost unicorns. Make sure she has some ranks in swim, Wooly, and may I suggest some ranks in boogie-boarding to while away 4.0?
I would hate to be a loremaster in 4.0. I wager a staff of the archmagi that exarchs become endangered species and, oh, the lament of a loremaster' set to pen the ever-growing Roll of Fallen Exarchs.
Maybe said scribe will set it to self-scribe so he can visit some floating turf!? Or hide with Larue in the sea-foam until 5.0!  |
Edited by - monknwildcat on 03 May 2008 02:43:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 06:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Honestly, I think the primary reason for introducing the "exarch" concept is to cut down on the number of gods in the setting without actually killing three-quarters of them.
Exactly. They're going to allow the PCs of the Realms to do their work. Very sneaky.
Bah. 200 gods or 50 and 150 exarchs, it doesn't matter: the PCs still have plenty to do. The Grand Nerfing won't change things one iota, from the PC perspective.
My complaint about the exarchs remains the fact that it appears the exarchs are going to be retconned former deities. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wyvernspur
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 07:22:07
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| I'd raise my hand to point out that Avatars used to have stats in 2E. Sure you pissed off a god if you took one out but it sounds like that is what the exarchs are kinda like. However since Exarchs are outsiders when you kill them in Faerun they will just return to the Astral Sea and their little realm their just like demons and such the only way to really kill them will be to hunt them down in their own realm....scary thought. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 13:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wyvernspur
I'd raise my hand to point out that Avatars used to have stats in 2E. Sure you pissed off a god if you took one out but it sounds like that is what the exarchs are kinda like. However since Exarchs are outsiders when you kill them in Faerun they will just return to the Astral Sea and their little realm their just like demons and such the only way to really kill them will be to hunt them down in their own realm....scary thought.
I'll acknowledge that. My sole complaint about the whole thing is the fact deities are being retconned into either other deities or into non-deities. I hate retcons. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 May 2008 13:42:29 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 16:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wyvernspur
I'd raise my hand to point out that Avatars used to have stats in 2E. Sure you pissed off a god if you took one out but it sounds like that is what the exarchs are kinda like. However since Exarchs are outsiders when you kill them in Faerun they will just return to the Astral Sea and their little realm their just like demons and such the only way to really kill them will be to hunt them down in their own realm....scary thought.
Yes, but those stats in the 2e material were NOT the stats of the deities themselves and the stats are only the stats of the deities avatars. Also note that 3e did away with a lot of avatars if the deity didn't have the avatar divine ability while in 2e all deities could at least have one avatar. Thus the stats in the 3e book ARE the stats for the deity as well as for their avatars, if they have an avatar, which is retcon from how they were in 2e.
Now it seems in 4e that some of the deities that have been deities since the first campaign box set are no longer deities and they are only servants, etc, of other deities or they merged into other deities, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 May 2008 16:18:11 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 17:05:07
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Indeed, and in case it isn't clear to anyone reading this discussion, exarches cannot have temples and worshippers, and they cannot grant spells.
I wonder how this change will be explained for 4E (all the worshippers exarch X used to have weren't really worshipping him, but his superior?). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 May 2008 17:06:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2008 : 17:36:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Indeed, and in case it isn't clear to anyone reading this discussion, exarches cannot have temples and worshippers, and they cannot grant spells.
Actually, they can grant spells -- at least, some spells. Again, from the original text: "Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods."
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I wonder how this change will be explained for 4E (all the worshippers exarch X used to have weren't really worshipping him, but his superior?).
I fear, given WotC's track record, that it will be another "Oh, it was always this way." The original text of the article describes Nobanion as "a powerful and enigmatic druid in lion's form its followers name Nobanion". That, and the exarch sidebar, leave no indications that Nobanion ever was a deity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 May 2008 17:42:21 |
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Tamtararamtam
Acolyte
Poland
13 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 18:02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I wonder how this change will be explained for 4E (all the worshippers exarch X used to have weren't really worshipping him, but his superior?).
The best thing they could do is just make it that only the most powerful clerics know the truth. I mean, for common folks, and most clerics (since the demipowers didn't have many powerful worshipers anyway) nothing has changed. They still worship their gods, but the mechanics behind it is channeling power of the superior.
I wonder what will happen to Garagos. Since he's not likely to become exarch of Tempus, perhaps he will have the ability to grant spells himself?
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 19:29:11
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Speaking as a DM who has done things like this before in his campaign . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I guess they die, in that campaign. Of course, a DM could do whatever he wanted, and perhaps make the exarch return somehow.
Assuming you don't want to bring the exarch back, there are a number of things you can do to *reward* the PCs . . . whose campaign should be over by that point anyway (see Lyrna's analysis above).
When PCs go after a demipower (or in this case, an exarch), my preference--from a historical standpoint--is to pull a Finder/Highlander move and have one (or perhaps all?) of the surviving PCs become the new demipower/exarch of that particular cause.
If it's one the PCs support (paladins defeating a crazed paladin exarch, perhaps), then the PCs simply take over that place and become the over-deity's new exarch(s). Either they are multiple exarchs (perhaps less powerful) or they merge into one, which is a combination of their abilities/personalities.
If it's one they oppose (good paladins deposing an evil exarch), then one of several things happens:
1) The surviving PC(s) become new exarch(s) with that being's inherent power and have to find a deity to pledge themselves to--probably their own patron(s).
This is good for feeling like your PCs left a substantial wound in an enemy faith. One of XXX's exarchs died, and now XXXX has a new exarch--the balance of power has shifted just a little.
Or, there's always the more tragic ending (and when you're me, you often go for these kinds of things):
2) The surviving PC(s) absorb the exarch(s) power and are either maddened by the power and radically change their outlook or they are *forced* to serve that exarch's deity. Either way--they become what they most hated.
This can be either bleak (the PCs go insane and become what they always fought) or noble (the goodly exarch reserving Bane's power, having to suffer on behalf of the world and fend off all future evil challengers, etc).
Any way you play it, the PCs are victorious over the big bad villain, and your campaign is at an end. The only thing you've got to decide is whether they're still going to be around--perhaps as allies/enemies for the new PCs?
Cheers,
Erik
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 05:33:08
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I'm so not buying the 4E FRCS... I've been really busy for the few last months, and I come back here today to read a few "4E" posts, half-hoping the designers would have changed their minds on a few horrible things forecast a few months ago (but not expecting they would).
Result: what a load of crap! all the doom and gloom will actually happen, and what I now read here paints a much bleaker picture of the Realms than I had ever dared anticipate! it's like they're not trying anymore! they are retconning absolutely everything I know about the Realms, down to main gods that have been around since the beginning.
Wow, I'm so done with the Realms right now. I'm not buying anything with FR written on the cover anymore, including novels (got enough unread Realms novels to last me for the next 10 years anyways). I'm done with WotC too. Including my main vice: D&D minis. Yep, I'm done with these too.
The only thing I might still spend money on, RPG-wise, is Pathfinder... or anything else Paizo ends up producing in the future. I will pray for Paizo to acquire the Realms and undo the damage done, out of pure hope to see the REAL Realms in print again. Schend, Boyd, where art thou? Can't you infiltrate Paizo to influence an hostile takeover of the Realms-license from WotC's evil, cold, dead hand? |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2008 : 11:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Wow, I'm so done with the Realms right now. I'm not buying anything with FR written on the cover anymore, including novels (got enough unread Realms novels to last me for the next 10 years anyways). I'm done with WotC too. Including my main vice: D&D minis. Yep, I'm done with these too.
You speak my thought, PDK. Hence with it all - I say!
Edit Note: Sorry for me interrupting the on-going discussion, but I just had to bring this one up again.
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
I read somewhere a post by Brian the GHotR-dude...
Thats a great one! 
On with the topic, please! |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 31 May 2008 11:19:32 |
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QueenofShadows
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 19:45:44
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| I just read up on this and I am like blah, I was upset to begin with now I am even more worried...they've made Shar into such an Uber deity now..and what about the rest of the gods, One of my favorites is also LuRue the Unicorn. Meh. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 13:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by QueenofShadows
One of my favorites is also LuRue the Unicorn. Meh.
Another Lurue fan! Yay!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 19:16:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by QueenofShadows
One of my favorites is also LuRue the Unicorn. Meh.
Another Lurue fan! Yay!
Is that Johnny LuRue? Is he still making pictures with that crane? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Tamtararamtam
Acolyte
Poland
13 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by QueenofShadows
I just read up on this and I am like blah, I was upset to begin with now I am even more worried...they've made Shar into such an Uber deity now..and what about the rest of the gods, One of my favorites is also LuRue the Unicorn. Meh.
Where can I read that? I really liek Mask and I wouldn't like to see him being fused with Shar |
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eiglos
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 12:56:37
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| I too am a fan of Lurue and I fear for what she will become in 4e FR. Of course you could just return her to her original portfolio, that of supreme deity of magic in the Realms, which would really annoy Shar. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 16:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamtararamtam
Where can I read that? I really liek Mask and I wouldn't like to see him being fused with Shar
Maybe if Mask killed Shar and stole her portfolios, but I like Mask and would rather not see him become subservient to or part of Shar. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 01:37:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by QueenofShadows
One of my favorites is also LuRue the Unicorn. Meh.
Another Lurue fan! Yay!
she's probably a goner though |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 03:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Tamtararamtam
Where can I read that? I really liek Mask and I wouldn't like to see him being fused with Shar
Maybe if Mask killed Shar and stole her portfolios, but I like Mask and would rather not see him become subservient to or part of Shar.
-Never in my Realms! 
-REMEMBER: ONE CORE TO RULE THEM ALL. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 09:13:58
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Does anyone know what has happened to Torm in 4E or has that info not been released yet?
I recall a little bit of lore from the 2nd Ed suppliment that stated that Torm would die again, sacrficing himself by destroying Cyric and thus saving the realms.
Could this be the fate that is in store for the god of paladins when 4E is rolled out?
I welcome any of the more learned sages to speculate or direct me to the scrolls on this subject.
Thanks
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Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Edited by - Talwyn on 16 Jul 2008 09:19:14 |
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4e Gods
