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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 12:56:16
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Here's a thread on the Paizo forums about how the World of Greyhawk might be handled in the 4E era. Now that we're somewhat used to the Realms recasting, I think this perspective is valuable. If you don't have time to read the thread, skip to Erik Mona's posts.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 14:02:41
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Erik Mona:
"Here's a good example. Greyhawk does not have a preponderance of tieflings or dragonborn in its conception. You could certainly _add_ these races, say by crashing another planet into Oerth and thus suggesting, by fiat, that "they've been there all along," but the widespread existence of these characters diminishes Greyhawk. They are warts, and they don't really belong. You can add them, sure, but you could also add draconians or gargoyle people or vulcans. It wouldn't _break_ the setting, but it would pull it further from its roots"
Sums up what they are doing to the Realms quite succinctly I think
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 14:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Sums up what they are doing to the Realms quite succinctly I think
Heh!
Thanks for the link, Faraer. I agree with Mr. Mona that Greyhawk wouldn't mesh that well with the 4E concepts. Tieflings and dragonborn being forced into that setting? I think I'll pass, thank you.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 14:19:38
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I don't think it breaks the setting to import a race, depending on how it's done. Tieflings and other planetouched weren't originally in the Realms, after all, but the always-stated multitude of portals and bits of backstory like the Calim and Memnon thing make them fit in with little work -- as long as it's some here and there, rather than an entire nation of them popping up.
Saurials were a specifically imported race, too.
While I'm not rushing out to claim that dragonborn are rebranded draconians, I do think they could have been imported without having to rely on the Sellplague. Give them another name, and have them either be from another continent, or perhaps distant relatives of the saurials who followed them... It's a better fit than dropping a nation of them out of the sky, squashing an existing area in the process.
In fact, I think that's what bothers me most about the changes wrought by the Sellplague: it's being used as an excuse to drop in new elements, willy-nilly. The gradual introduction of a few of the elements (certainly not all of them!) would have worked a lot better. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 14:34:02
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What I think very curious is the entire comment of the Realms being WotC's bestselling setting and the reboot makes things easier for authors and designers. If the Realms are the best-selling setting it worked quite well without those forced changes like Spellplague. If it is the best-selling setting it most likely is tied to Realmslore, the rich and detailed history of characters and countries. If new authors need to research so much, why not produce a "bible" for the Realms...oh, wait, they did that...right before they shot it to smithereens GHotR.
And again I ask: what would WotC do if they had a novel line tied to D&D that takes places in the middle ages? Reboot the "world" as well so that research isn't so tedious? I mean, seriously, the middle ages have been researched and detailed in more historical and history documents than the Realms because...well, they actually happened. And if you wanna write a story about area xyz in the Realms you can pick up the corresponding module/supplement and maybe preexisting novels and check what you are writing against that. A fact which will not really change for the "core" Realms as the streets in Suzail will probably retain their names and stuff like that.
Then again, the editors will have more time to do something other than their jobs with this reboot because they don't have to spend even more hours than the author cross-checking stuff...which they didn't do that much in the first place (see the Tree of Life in Last Mythal, before GHotR was published)
wow, this turned into a semi-rant...sorry folks  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 14:56:14
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| No apologies necessary Mace. All valid points and it frustrates me so much also. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. WotC just wanted an excuse to add all their little new playthings that they added to 4E into a sure thing which is the realms. Total BS!! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In fact, I think that's what bothers me most about the changes wrought by the Sellplague: it's being used as an excuse to drop in new elements, willy-nilly. The gradual introduction of a few of the elements (certainly not all of them!) would have worked a lot better.
Unfortunately, subtlety does not seem to be WotC's strong point, and therefore they decided to use a sledgehammer instead.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it breaks the setting to import a race, depending on how it's done. Tieflings and other planetouched weren't originally in the Realms, after all, but the always-stated multitude of portals and bits of backstory like the Calim and Memnon thing make them fit in with little work -- as long as it's some here and there, rather than an entire nation of them popping up.
Right, but we're talking Greyhawk here--it's very humanocentric (in my opinion, anyway) and less likely to have tieflings in it than the Realms (and I've never even heard of creatures like the Dragonborn being there).
Also, even if one can rationalize the presence of this or that race or other knicknack, I think the basic concern--"Is the nature of the setting being changed drastically to fit into new (and foreign) design principles?"--is still a valid one, for any setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Mar 2008 15:24:46 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:21:55
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The thing that gets me all worked up is that there was no problem with the Realms and, IMO, a lot of the Spellplague wrought changes are frickin stupid.
Like Hollywood action movie stupid.
Like trying to turn WoW into an RPG setting stupid (verisimilitude does not exist in WoW, good for a video game, bad for an RPG setting).
And it didn't have to be stupid, it could have been decent. I don't personally feel that 4e will be a good match to the Realms but you need to work with the rules you have, not the rules you wish you had (heh). What really gets me though, is the destruction of what was and the lack of information on how the current situation came about. Without that information I feel like I'm shooting in the dark when I write a campaign arch.
Alright, I'm done for now. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:36:30
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OK, lest it seem like I'm behind Erik Mona all the way, I just read the post where Mr. Mona thinks it's fine that the Realms setting is being thrown under the bus:
quote:
FR is in a slightly different position, it being the most popular and best-selling campaign setting. "Blowing it up" really needed to be done, for two reasons:
1) Your best-selling, most popular campaign setting really ought to follow the rules as written.
2) Continuity is hard. Starting over so that your in-house designers and freelancers only have to "know" one book is a lot easier on managing internal resources.
Morphing the Forgotten Realms allows WotC R&D to neatly solve both problems with a single stroke.
I'd rather that not happen to Greyhawk, personally. And the smart strategy, in my opinion, is to _not_ do that, to offer something different with Greyhawk than what you offer with the Forgotten Realms.
Thanks Erik, thanks a whole lot. I guess setting integrity doesn't matter to every setting, just the one YOU happen to like?
But I still don't think Greyhawk should be thrown under the bus either. Or, for that matter, Eberron.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Mar 2008 15:38:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it breaks the setting to import a race, depending on how it's done. Tieflings and other planetouched weren't originally in the Realms, after all, but the always-stated multitude of portals and bits of backstory like the Calim and Memnon thing make them fit in with little work -- as long as it's some here and there, rather than an entire nation of them popping up.
Right, but we're talking Greyhawk here--it's very humanocentric (in my opinion, anyway) and less likely to have tieflings in it than the Realms (and I've never even heard of creatures like the Dragonborn being there).
Understood. I was just using specific Realms examples to show that new races can be introduced into a setting, using existing lore, without breaking the setting -- so long as it was properly handled. I'm not overly familiar with Greyhawk, but I'd assume that there are areas of that setting where existing lore can be used to introduce small numbers of new races like tieflings or dragonborn. Not wholesale race importation, certainly, but a previously little-known line of these races could be worked in. For example (againing, drawing on what little I know of the setting), I'd think you could have a few tieflings wandering around in those lands ruled by Iuz.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Also, even if one can rationalize the presence of this or that race or other knicknack, I think the basic concern--"Is the nature of the setting being changed drastically to fit into new (and foreign) design principles?"--is still a valid one, for any setting.
I'm not advocating throwing everything into every setting. But I think small things (like limited numbers of a new race) can easily be worked in, so long as existing lore makes it believable. As long as these things are done on a small scale, and are fully meshed into the setting (again, meaning done with well-established existing lore), then I think such changes can be done without changing the basic nature of the setting. Like with my planetouched example above -- we've known since the Old Grey Box that the Realms contains a gazillion portals to other worlds and planes, so it stands to reason that every now and again, particularly in areas near these portals, someone might pop up with a bloodline that comes from a nearby-linked elsewhere. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:41:57
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
The thing that gets me all worked up is that there was no problem with the Realms and, IMO, a lot of the Spellplague wrought changes are frickin stupid.
Like Hollywood action movie stupid.
Like trying to turn WoW into an RPG setting stupid (verisimilitude does not exist in WoW, good for a video game, bad for an RPG setting).
And it didn't have to be stupid, it could have been decent. I don't personally feel that 4e will be a good match to the Realms but you need to work with the rules you have, not the rules you wish you had (heh). What really gets me though, is the destruction of what was and the lack of information on how the current situation came about. Without that information I feel like I'm shooting in the dark when I write a campaign arch.
Alright, I'm done for now.
I'm not trying to get into yet another anti-D&D Extreme or anti-Shattered Realms discussion, here. I'm just trying to say that some things in a setting, within reason, can be changed using existing lore without breaking the setting. I don't feel that the Sellplague is an example of this; I'm just saying it is possible to do. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:45:03
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Wooly: I get what you're saying, and for the record, I agree with you. I believe new elements can be introduced into the setting slowly and in small doses, and that can work (and yes, Greyhawk does have plenty of unknown lands).
I guess it just comes down to me not trusting that WotC would introduce the 4E elements into Greyhawk in such a manner, given what happened to the Realms setting.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Mar 2008 15:46:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
OK, lest it seem like I'm behind Erik Mona all the way, I just read the post where Mr. Mona thinks it's fine that the Realms setting is being thrown under the bus:
quote:
FR is in a slightly different position, it being the most popular and best-selling campaign setting. "Blowing it up" really needed to be done, for two reasons:
1) Your best-selling, most popular campaign setting really ought to follow the rules as written.
2) Continuity is hard. Starting over so that your in-house designers and freelancers only have to "know" one book is a lot easier on managing internal resources.
Morphing the Forgotten Realms allows WotC R&D to neatly solve both problems with a single stroke.
I'd rather that not happen to Greyhawk, personally. And the smart strategy, in my opinion, is to _not_ do that, to offer something different with Greyhawk than what you offer with the Forgotten Realms.
Thanks Erik, thanks a whole lot. I guess setting integrity doesn't matter to every setting, just the one YOU happen to like?
But I still don't think Greyhawk should be thrown under the bus either. Or, for that matter, Eberron.
Ouch.
1) Your best-selling, most popular campaign setting ought to continue to follow the existing formulas that made it the best-selling and most popular, not have things broken to fit (mis-)percieved ideals.
2) How about making, even if just for internal use, a "master guidebook" that contains all the relevant bits of Realmslore, and letting your designers use that? Heck, even searchable pdfs of all existing books would make things easier. Chucking out the door what made the setting successful is not the way to continue that success. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 16:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
1) Your best-selling, most popular campaign setting ought to continue to follow the existing formulas that made it the best-selling and most popular, not have things broken to fit (mis-)percieved ideals.
2) How about making, even if just for internal use, a "master guidebook" that contains all the relevant bits of Realmslore, and letting your designers use that? Heck, even searchable pdfs of all existing books would make things easier. Chucking out the door what made the setting successful is not the way to continue that success.
Indeed, Mace and I agree with you about that. If something is "best-selling", why change it?
Also, that comment doesn't really mesh well with other comments from "those in the know" (like the designers) that implied that FR sales were in decline and the setting is being changed to attract new (and hopefully more) customers. Who is correct, here? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 16:40:45
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First, about Greyhawk in 4e.
Given what seems to be WotC's preference I just don't see Greyhawk fairing any better than the Realms, should WotC focus on the setting. I can't help but think that they'd feel the need to crash a planet into Oerth in order the justify importing planetouched and moots and the like, because that really looks like it's the goal. Crazy fantasy land. Because that's "cool".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
The thing that gets me all worked up is that there was no problem with the Realms and, IMO, a lot of the Spellplague wrought changes are frickin stupid.
I'm not trying to get into yet another anti-D&D Extreme or anti-Shattered Realms discussion, here. I'm just trying to say that some things in a setting, within reason, can be changed using existing lore without breaking the setting. I don't feel that the Sellplague is an example of this; I'm just saying it is possible to do.
I totally agree, just got worked up when writing so it got all ranty, sorry about that. :)
In fact, back in 2e it was simplicity itself to play any playable race from any setting (though Darksun and Ravenloft were a little tough to work in, but if you just decided that portals to and from Athas were just really rare then it still works, Ravenloft, not so much *g*) in any setting. You might not have a nation of Minotaurs but you could feel free to play a Dragonlance Minotaur in a Realms game.
In 3e it was a bit more difficult but the Great Tree still provided some access to the Wheel (I think, as far as canon goes) so it still wasn't an issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
2) How about making, even if just for internal use, a "master guidebook" that contains all the relevant bits of Realmslore, and letting your designers use that? Heck, even searchable pdfs of all existing books would make things easier. Chucking out the door what made the setting successful is not the way to continue that success.
My stance on this is that it's absolutely unforgivable that they don't do research. Honestly, they are getting paid so they should be doing the research. I have to do independent research for my job and it's frickin boring, especially if you compare what I research to researching realmslore, so you won't find any sympathy from me.
Heck, the Elves of Faerun net book is of a higher quality than a few Realms products, IMO.
I pretty much believe that these sorts of projects are the future of FR, because I just don't see FR in Realms 4e. |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 21:20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Eric Mona
FR is in a slightly different position, it being the most popular and best-selling campaign setting. "Blowing it up" really needed to be done, for two reasons:
1) Your best-selling, most popular campaign setting really ought to follow the rules as written.
2) Continuity is hard. Starting over so that your in-house designers and freelancers only have to "know" one book is a lot easier on managing internal resources.
Morphing the Forgotten Realms allows WotC R&D to neatly solve both problems with a single stroke.
I'd rather that not happen to Greyhawk, personally. And the smart strategy, in my opinion, is to _not_ do that, to offer something different with Greyhawk than what you offer with the Forgotten Realms.
I took this post by Eric Mona somewhat differently than people seem to be taking it here. The post seems to be from the business/costs perspective and as such makes a lot of sense for the pencil pushers.
While he may not have as large a stake in the FR as he does in Greyhawk, it offers a fairly unattached perspective on the FR setting and why exactly the massive changes are happening in 4th Edition. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 21:32:31
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Yeah, I think Erik was in "publisher" mode when he was discussing that. His point being that if you are going to make the Realms your flagship setting, and if you drastically change the rules that that setting is the flagship for, and if you add new features like new races, it doesn't make much sense to say that the new races don't fit in well to your flagship setting, or that the new rules work slightly differently in the flagship setting. The flagship should be your baseline.
Now, if you want to preserve the feel of a given setting rather than make it your flagship, you don't want to do these things to it, but from a business point of view, your most popular setting should probably be your flagship.
Its kind of like saying that if you are going to write Civil War it had darn well better affect Captain America, Spider-man, and Iron Man. The above is true. It does not also follow that that means that Civil War is a story that needs to be told, however. (And for non-comic buffs, just switch out "Civil War" for "Star Wars Prequels" and switch out "Captain America, Spider-man, and Iron Man" for "Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the Emperor.) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 22:01:59
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I wonder how many old-time designers (read ex-TSR employess) will be developing for Pathfinder? It would be nice to have a place to go and experience some 'old school' designer goodness.
Anyhow, I think Tieflings would be a perfect fit in GH - they have a very long tradition of 'tainted' human types (like the Animus), and the 'big baddy' of the setting - Iuz - is the "mother-of-all-Tieflings!" (a Cambion). I could see, with Iuz's Fiendish 'contacts', an entire sub-race of Tieflings evolving within his kingdom (also called Iuz)
Dragonborn, not so much, but if I had to I'd throw them down in Hepmonland and say they were always there. 
And thats the whole point - with at least half the planet un-detailed from previous editions, the designers felt the need to go 'further afield' to explain stuff? 
There are THREE entire continents that have NO history to them, and we barely scratched the surface of Maztica. Not to mention at least three humongous islands and hundreds of smaller ones that practically anything could have been placed on.
And yet, rather then further developing the setting we love, they choose to 'import' stuff from other settings/planes of existance.
I just don't 'get it'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2008 22:04:55 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 22:13:10
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| Well, "traditional" tieflings make sense, as people with demonic ancestry, since some places in Greyhawk are just crawling with demons, but on the other hand, the "new" tieflings, with their "nation of cursed people that made pacts with devils," maybe not so much. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 22:17:19
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Well, thats why I said that Iuz is the perfect place... who really knows what the hell has been going on in there for the last century? If anyone in GH were to hide some sort of 'demonic breeding program' from the rest of the world, it would be Iuz.
He's sneaky that way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 00:10:54
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| Ew . . . I was just thinking of the Old One participating in the program himself . . . ick . . . ick . . . must think of Iggwilv . . . |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 00:32:39
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Still... it's a more pleasant thought then his rival Vecna doing the same thing. 
We really need a 'vomit' smiley. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 00:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not trying to get into yet another anti-D&D Extreme or anti-Shattered Realms discussion, here. I'm just trying to say that some things in a setting, within reason, can be changed using existing lore without breaking the setting. I don't feel that the Sellplague is an example of this; I'm just saying it is possible to do.
I agree 100% with Wooly on this one. Anything is possible in the Realms, it's just a question of scope, degree and respect for the setting and the established lore.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 15:29:10
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I agree 100% with Wooly on this one. Anything is possible in the Realms, it's just a question of scope, degree and respect for the setting and the established lore.
-- George Krashos
IMO, the bold part is where WotC seems to have slipped up in their design and presentation of the 4e Realms. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 15:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I agree 100% with Wooly on this one. Anything is possible in the Realms, it's just a question of scope, degree and respect for the setting and the established lore.
-- George Krashos
IMO, the bold part is where WotC seems to have slipped up in their design and presentation of the 4e Realms.
Slipping up would imply an accident, as far as I can tell from what has been said there is not one single thing accidental in the design. WotC did not slip up, the deconstruction or destruction of the Realms was and is deliberate.
In my book that means none of the people involved did try their best, or try at all, to retain the setting's integrity. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 17:36:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
I took this post by Eric Mona somewhat differently than people seem to be taking it here. The post seems to be from the business/costs perspective and as such makes a lot of sense for the pencil pushers.
While he may not have as large a stake in the FR as he does in Greyhawk, it offers a fairly unattached perspective on the FR setting and why exactly the massive changes are happening in 4th Edition.
I'm aware that he was trying to be objective, but I'm still not convinced that the Realms setting "really needed blowing up" as he asserts, even from a business perspective.
And as far as business perspectives go, is Eric Mona a Wizards of the Coast employee? Does he have access to sales records, marketing research, etc? I'm not yet convinced that his opinion holds so much weight (more than the average "layperson's") as far as what is "needed" for the setting goes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 18:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
In my book that means none of the people involved did try their best, or try at all, to retain the setting's integrity.
The visual of 'Bulls in a China Shop' come to mind. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Mar 2008 18:34:32 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 18:47:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
In my book that means none of the people involved did try their best, or try at all, to retain the setting's integrity.
The visual of 'Bulls in a China Shop' come to mind.
Or flamethrowers at an origami-exhibition |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 15:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
I took this post by Eric Mona somewhat differently than people seem to be taking it here. The post seems to be from the business/costs perspective and as such makes a lot of sense for the pencil pushers.
While he may not have as large a stake in the FR as he does in Greyhawk, it offers a fairly unattached perspective on the FR setting and why exactly the massive changes are happening in 4th Edition.
I'm aware that he was trying to be objective, but I'm still not convinced that the Realms setting "really needed blowing up" as he asserts, even from a business perspective.
And as far as business perspectives go, is Eric Mona a Wizards of the Coast employee? Does he have access to sales records, marketing research, etc? I'm not yet convinced that his opinion holds so much weight (more than the average "layperson's") as far as what is "needed" for the setting goes.
Erica Mona is an editor for the other publishing company Paizo, he might still freelance for WoTC. I'm not sure what he would have access to when it comes to WoTC. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 17:28:47
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Thanks for the clarification. I understand from the comments of other freelancers that they often know only as much as everyone else does (they learn details on a "need to know" basis) as they are not actual WotC employees. And if they aren't following the hype, they might know even less then the average internet-using fan does.
I'm not trying to slam Eric Mona--I don't know him personally, I was just annoyed at his comment, and even though it was presented in a matter-of-fact tone, I'm talking it with a grain of salt as I don't know how much Realms-expertise is really behind it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Counterpoint: Greyhawk
