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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 21:09:45
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I think splicing Oerth into 4E-shape would be slightly more invasive than Toril, but not by much. As with attempts to define the essence of the Realms, the examples Erik chose like the tieflings were emblems rather than the real essence of the matter. Regarding that particular change, has the thinking that PC races have to be common and prominent ever been explained?
Where Erik said 'the smart strategy, in my opinion, is to _not_ do that, to offer something different with Greyhawk than what you offer with the Forgotten Realms', I feel the smart strategy would have been to let the Realms offer something not given by mainstream D&D. I felt the same way in 2001.
Wizards doesn't need to use the Realms as a flagship setting, or to subsume it into a single uniform 4E market. Once it decided to do those things, it 'needed' to try to implement them. I doubt Erik would have been as sanguine with his favourite world.
Ditto the wish to make the setting easy to write for for new designers. But will lowering the standard encourage people to waste their time reading poorly researched Realms material, or help it complete with other settings? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 21:31:28
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Well, GH was mostly humano-centric because it was the first 'official' D&D world (technically the 2nd), and back then non-humans were rare, and IIRC you needed DM permission to play one back then.
Not to mention, there were all kinds of level-restrictions to keep them from being a popular player choice.
I also see Faraer's point very well - why does a race have to have ANY presence on a world for a Player to play one? 
On Oerth it might be 'slightly' hard to justify, but on Abeir-Toril? The World of Portals? ANYTHING and EVERYTHING can be found in Faerûn - always was, always will be. We needn't have entire nations dropped pell-mell into the center of our setting, especially when we already had things like Tieflings, Genasi, and Dragonborn all in 3e canon already!
With things like Spelljamming, Planescape, and Ravenloft, cross-world pollination has been going on since the beginning, and you can place a PC race from any setting on any world, and you don't need justification, just a half-way decent back-story.
I've always used stuff from every setting I liked, with little fuss, so why do they feel the need to 'force it' now?
I've probaly run more GH modules in FR then any FR modules in my day. 
Its almost as if they are taking away a lot of the DMs control, and creating rules where we didn't need them.
In a nutshell, here is why I think WotC's thinking is flawed -
They talk about races with 'traction' - races that get a lot of game play. They want to concentrate on those races, and not so much on races they feel saw little 'traction' (such as the Gnome). Obviously they didn't think the gnome was 'cool enough' for 4e, hence that video showing him as a 12 yr old imbecile. Races like Genasi, Tieflings, and Half-Dragons are 'COOL', and therfore see a lot of traction.
What makes them cool? The fact that nobody else has them? The fact that they are different then the ordinary host of PCs (Elves, Dwarves, halflings, etc)?
I remember when those demi-human races were cool, just because they were so RARE. In GH, there was only ONE Elven Kingdom, and it was hidden and closed to humans. The Dwarves pretty much stayed in their Mountain Fortresses, and the same could be said for the other races (Drow stayed in the Underdark!) With 2e/3e, we saw these races 'pop-up' all over the place, in every nook and cranny, and they lost that 'specialness' that we loved about them. They lost their 'Cool'. 
So... my point (finally)... Don't they (WotC) realize that they are making this same fatal mistake all over again? By forcing entire nations of these 'cool' races upon us, they are making them lose their 'cool'?
Remember when Drizzt was cool? Ya know... back when he was the only one....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 21:47:36
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The Realms isn't really much less humanocentric than Greyhawk's world, despite the fanservice elf and drow coverage, at least until the ridiculous reversals of the dwarven decline and the Retreat. I don't object to the tiefling influx because it couldn't happen, but because I don't see any advantage to it. As you say, people don't like playing weird races because they're usual.
The thinking seems to be part of a larger trend I've called foreshortening, in which far, difficult, complex, rare and mysterious become ever nearer, easier, simpler, and more common and familiar. |
Edited by - Faraer on 27 Mar 2008 22:03:27 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 21:58:45
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You know, its an odd string of logic used sometimes. 4th edition seems predicated on the idea that PCs aren't just driven individuals, but a special class of people akin to Greek heroes, able to do things not just that others might have trouble doing, but that they flat out can't, because they are "commoners."
Yet, with this thinking in place, there still needs to be hundreds of thousands if not millions of a given race to "justify" that races being used by a player?
It took me a while when I first came back to D&D when 3rd edition hit to figure out why elves and dwarves were no longer in Retreat or Decline. When I finally realized that some of the designers thought that you couldn't legitimately play an elf or a dwarf if the race was in decline, I was rather confused by the logic.
And again, we worry about population figures when figuring out if a race is a legitimate choice for a PC race, but we don't think about population figures when it comes to the Chosen supposedly saving every person in Faerun by themselves, or when we figure that there are "too many" gods for the setting?
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 27 Mar 2008 22:00:44 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 22:06:56
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| KEJr, this entire heroes vs commoner business rings disturbing, IMO. Übermensch and whathaveyou... Aryan bullshine brought to life in D&D so to speak. Makes me really sick to think about that possibility... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 22:36:42
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Faraer, glad to see you back to this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Where Erik said 'the smart strategy, in my opinion, is to _not_ do that, to offer something different with Greyhawk than what you offer with the Forgotten Realms', I feel the smart strategy would have been to let the Realms offer something not given by mainstream D&D. I felt the same way in 2001.
Indeed, each setting should offer something different! I've always enjoyed how various settings I like are different from each other, and I wouldn't want one to have to conform to the design principles of another. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 22:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And again, we worry about population figures when figuring out if a race is a legitimate choice for a PC race, but we don't think about population figures when it comes to the Chosen supposedly saving every person in Faerun by themselves, or when we figure that there are "too many" gods for the setting?
Awesome point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 23:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Still... it's a more pleasant thought then his rival Vecna doing the same thing.
We really need a 'vomit' smiley. 
I thought Iuz possesses that special part of Vecna.  Vecna lost his hand, eye, and .....
How is THAT for disturbing images? Somewhere, some party has found part of Vecna, and a PC has a compulsion to attach it.... |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:16:21
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Personally, my PCs that are playing my game are "special".
Not because there are a few exotic races. Not because they are "different" from "commoners" but because they are the protagonists of the story. I set up, what I like to call, a house of cards (group A trying to accomplish X, group B trying to accomplish Y, group C trying to accomplish Z) and the PCs are the ones that shake the house and deal with the falling cards.
They're special, not because of their heritage, but because they are the ones who are going to do what needs to be done.
Which is VERY analogous with how life works. It's not that the important people in history were vastly different from you or me, it's that they did something important. Sure, they had gifts, were better at X or Y, but at those gifts aren't so massive that they are inherently different from us. |
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Counterpoint: Greyhawk
