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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 17:56:35
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Well, I propose that we no longer discuss the religions or politics of make-believe people either.
But seriously, sort of, I don't think it is right to say anything about the appearance of Drow is "natural." They were cursed with unnatural coloration. At least that's how I've looked at it in the past. Black skin in a creature that never sees light is not natural at all. Naturally it seems to me that an underdark race would have incredibly pale, if not translucent skin as the body attempted to capture any errant ray of light to make vitamin D. I think there is support for this since it's not like Ed put a bunch of dark skinned people up north and blond people at the equator. Basic physiology seems to be the same in the Realms, (hitpoints notwithstanding.)
The Drow have completely unnatural features and live in an unnatural realm because they were banished. So if they look ridiculous in drawings because of that, I'm willing to call that just another curse.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 18:20:30
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Well, it could be argued that after the initial banishment, it became natural for them. And we don't know enough about drow physiology to know if they need vitamin D. They perhaps don't need it, or they have some substitute, or something in their food supply is vitamin D-rich, or they could even draw some from faerzress.
On the flipside, I think their dark skin would be ideal for hiding in the lightless and nearly lightless surroundings of the Underdark.
Either way, we've strayed pretty far from the original topic.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 18:26:41
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IIRC, Ed's Drow WERE White... TRUE white, not that pinkish-peach skin color we usually term as 'white'.
Very much like the Shadow Elves of Mystara, I believe.
He even mentions them in 2e DotU, but only in passing, as an 'aberration' among the Drow. Still, they make more sense, had they evolved 'naturally', as did the Mystaran 'Subterranean Elves.
Another species of Underdark Elf are the Rockseer Elves, who I believe had pale skin tones as well. They are not 100% canon to FR, but in the Elves of Faerūn project, we have placed them as the Green Elven Allies of the Illythiir, who fled below ground with them once the descent curse fell upon the Drow.
Sorry... this has gone slightly off-topic. I tend to ramble on at times. 
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Wow, I need to go back through some of my d20 resources again. I completely forgot abotu Underland, and that's a damn cool concept. Thanks for reminding me of that one Markustay.
Yeah, I always loved that concept - that even the Underdark had an Underdark!
Monte Cook produces some awesome stuff, and I adapt a lot of it to my Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 18:49:02
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quote:
Either way, we've strayed pretty far from the original topic.
Tough to argue with that and I can take the hint that you are employing your Rod of the Last Word. Or perhaps this post says that I can't.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 19:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
But seriously, sort of, I don't think it is right to say anything about the appearance of Drow is "natural." They were cursed with unnatural coloration.
Of course, the concept of being "cursed with dark/black skin" is also pretty dodgy thanks to real world baggage. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Mar 2008 19:32:34 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 20:35:23
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quote:
Of course, the concept of being "cursed with dark/black skin" is also pretty dodgy thanks to real world baggage.
Agreed. I think you have approach it as a curse that made them unnatural: colorless or black-and-white. Otherwise, the obvious question becomes, what's so bad about having dark skin? We talk a lot here about bad decisions being made by WotC but the "cursed with dark skin" one was a doozy.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 22:54:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
quote:
Of course, the concept of being "cursed with dark/black skin" is also pretty dodgy thanks to real world baggage.
Agreed. I think you have approach it as a curse that made them unnatural: colorless or black-and-white. Otherwise, the obvious question becomes, what's so bad about having dark skin? We talk a lot here about bad decisions being made by WotC but the "cursed with dark skin" one was a doozy.
Well, we'll have to go back quite a ways before WotC...back to the days of the Fiend Folio where the dastards came from in 1st Edition Dungeons and Dragons.
Way back when the Drow were REALLY something to be feared in the Underdark. Now they are sort of like Worf on Star Trek:
If you want to show how bad something really is...just have it beat the crap outa a bunch of Drow all at once and there you have it!
More back to the original topic: where ARE the dark skinned people...as in, what nations compare to real world peoples so that folks have something to compare them to? Perhaps this is a good question for ol' Ed and THO! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 01:38:49
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Also, in some old sourcebook somewhere (please don't ask me where) it was mentioned that Elves can derive sustenance from the sun! That would mean that something in their skin (animal Chlorophyll?) allowed them to do this. I don't think they could survive completely on sunlight, but they would be able to last longer then most other beings without any form of nourishment (it was more like supplemental).
So, we can hypothesize that turning their skin black not only removed this naturally-occurring photosynthesis-like ability, but also made sunlight itself anethema to do them (Ulticaria). Now, the original Dark Elves were very much like the Grugach (Wilf Elves), and were much closer to nature then Grey (Sun & Moon) Elves. That means the curse wasn't so much a change of skin color, as it was a denial of them to 'live beneath the sun'.
We must remember one of the cruelist paradoxes of Drow dogma - they yearn for the day when they may one day 'walk beneath the sky' again, and yet, strive as they might, it is that same 'overworld' and its sunlihght that causes them such pain.
That was true nature of Corellon's curse - to change that which brings them joy into that which brings them pain. The skin color was merely a side effect of changing their skin's chemical reaction to sunlight.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2008 01:39:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 21:20:48
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This one's for Wooly - I found another very excellent example of an artist being able to produce what he is paiid to.
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ad_d/icewind2/art/iw2art04.jpg
You must paste the link directly into your browser - they don't allow linking from another site. After a few moments though, it still came on for me after the error message. 
That was from the Icewind Dale video game - all of its artwork was excellent. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 02:55:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This one's for Wooly - I found another very excellent example of an artist being able to produce what he is paiid to.
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ad_d/icewind2/art/iw2art04.jpg
Eh, I can't say I really care for it... But then I'm really picky on my fantasy artwork, since I came into this hobby when Elmore, Easley, and Caldwell were doing everything. It does, however, prove that getting the skintone right is not impossible. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 02:59:16
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| Yeah, that was kinda my point. I don't think its all that great, but if you look at the face, hands, and breasts you can see the artist at least did a bang-up job with the fleshtones. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 04:20:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This one's for Wooly - I found another very excellent example of an artist being able to produce what he is paiid to.
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ad_d/icewind2/art/iw2art04.jpg
You must paste the link directly into your browser - they don't allow linking from another site. After a few moments though, it still came on for me after the error message.
That was from the Icewind Dale video game - all of its artwork was excellent.
That one's lovely. To be honest, I found the one Wooly linked... hideous. Of course, I think Elmore's art (and any art done in a similar style) is ugly beyond belief. Tacky, flat colors and full of dead-eyed people whose facial expressions seem to be locked into two modes: emotionless and constipated. Campy 80s fantasy art is not really my cup of tea. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 05:30:35
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I think its those 'child-bearing hips' that are throwing us off on that one. The rest I like, but something about the legs really bothers me.
I like both, but for different reasons, and they both got the skintone right, which is what this threads all about. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rory
Seeker
79 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 08:22:13
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On the original subject I was wondering if there are any prominent black human characters of note. The only possible two I know of is Vajra Valmeyjar from the AD&D comic and later modules and possibly Farl Bloodaxe who was described as having dark skin in the novel Crusade. He was a high-ranking Purple Dragon so I dont know if he was dark skin by their standards or a Black Knight immigrant of sort.
edit...
Is this thread like half locked or something? I have the last post but it didnt bump the thread. |
Edited by - Rory on 05 Apr 2008 21:40:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 22:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Rory
Is this thread like half locked or something? I have the last post but it didnt bump the thread.
No, some of Sage's gremlins are still wandering free. We keep telling him to round them up and put them in a cage, but he instead just put it on his to-do list, which now numbers approximately 304,905 items. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 01:15:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hey, it wasn't my fault this time. The Lady K forgot to close the cage door after she'd finished feeding them.
Now what kind of guy blames things on the mother of his child? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 01:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rory
On the original subject I was wondering if there are any prominent black human characters of note. The only possible two I know of is Vajra Valmeyjar from the AD&D comic and later modules and possibly Farl Bloodaxe who was described as having dark skin in the novel Crusade. He was a high-ranking Purple Dragon so I dont know if he was dark skin by their standards or a Black Knight immigrant of sort.
edit...
Is this thread like half locked or something? I have the last post but it didnt bump the thread.
The novel Ring of Winter has quite a few dark-skinned characters in it, as it takes place in Chult. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 07:55:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I've always gotten the impression that Chultans are an "African-like" people.
While Shining South and specifically the picture of the Shaaryan Hunter in Players Guide to Faerūn again gives the distinct impression that the Shaar is in fact populated by "native American-like" dark-skinned people -- perhaps with either a Masai or indeed native American culture and love for a nomadic existence -- as opposed to pure "African-like" people. Again in true Realmsian fashion, they share their space with the African elephant-like Loxos and the alien-like Thri-Kreen, making real world parralels difficult to substantiate.
Though it is non-canon for the most part, the cRPG Neverwinter Nights 1 had a dark skinned character as one of the main supporting NPCs (Aarin Gend, a Chultan). |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 15:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Again in true Realmsian fashion, they share their space with the African elephant-like Loxos and the alien-like Thri-Kreen, making real world parralels difficult to substantiate.
Indeed--Shaarans are in truth people adapted to their environment rather than a people who are strictly parallel to any one real world culture (remember too that "Native American" cultures are highly varied, depending on where a particular tribe lived). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Apr 2008 15:08:24 |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 07:55:43
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| I've always pictured the Chultans as looking like sub-Saharan Africans, the Tashalans and Lapaliyans as the peoples on the Horn of Africa, and the Dupari as Asian Indians with mixed "Aryan" and Dravidian ancestory (note to the ignorant: "Aryan" means the North Indians, not the Nazi conception). As for the Shaarans, I used to think of them as looking the same as their Lapaliyan neighbors (based on old portrayals of Shaaran centaurs, with whom they shared the same environment), but recent artwork and character descriptions indicate Amerindian features (don't ask me how their ancestors migrated from somewhere in Kara-Tur). The Turmish I picture as Moors or Tauregs. I wish Ed would put this subject to rest (if he hasn't already), so that I don't have to keep altering mental pictures of characters based on new information. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2008 : 20:04:27
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| Re the practicality of painting completely black skin, here's a photo of a naked woman in black body paint (I think) on the cover of a photography magazine. |
Edited by - Faraer on 13 Jul 2008 20:07:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2008 : 23:36:17
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Nice - I've saved it and will remove the background as a... reference.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2008 : 01:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rory
On the original subject I was wondering if there are any prominent black human characters of note. The only possible two I know of is Vajra Valmeyjar from the AD&D comic and later modules and possibly Farl Bloodaxe who was described as having dark skin in the novel Crusade. He was a high-ranking Purple Dragon so I dont know if he was dark skin by their standards or a Black Knight immigrant of sort.
My impression has always been that Farl Bloodaxe was what most Americans would call "Black" -- no waffling about, the man sounds like a Negro, un-cursed, non-primitive, just a Black man in authority in Cormyr. Curiously, he also has green eyes, which is a recessive genetic trait on Earth. Even though he commanded the Cormyrian infantry during the Crusade, I don't recall any mention of him anywhere outside of the novels except here in the hallowed halls. Perhaps we could encourage the Master of the Green Wood to spin some lore about him, seeing that poor Farl's been dead a hundred years or so.... 
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Gwydion669
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2008 : 06:45:38
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True "black-skinned" drow also made a brief appearance in the second Dungeons and Dragons movie. They were in the background of one shot, hanging upside down, being bled dry, I believe. You get a much better view of them snacking on the set in the "extras" section of the DVD.
PS: Make sure to watch it with the "player's commentary" running. Four players are providing comments in the role of the iconic characters. It's so bad, it's funny. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 17:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Re the practicality of painting completely black skin, here's a photo of a naked woman in black body paint (I think) on the cover of a photography magazine.
Very striking picture. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sinjin Oban
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 04:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Do any exist?
If you want to address the original topic, check the "Do the realms have an Africa-like region?" thread. Its here in the General Forgotten Realms Chat topics.
That thread went pretty well, I thought. |
Favored brat of Beshaba. (Which is just as awful as it sounds.) |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 04:44:33
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this thread didnt need re animated.
let it die.
furthermore there are no real world ethnic groups in the FR. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 05:00:40
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| My my.....so we ARE included in the realms without having to have pointed ears and worship demon-spiders! That's......refreshing!lol |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Black people/nations in the realms
