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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 01:44:48
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Do any exist?
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 02:04:35
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| Chult mostly and the southern lands are dark skinned. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 02:18:53
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From my response in another thread, over in Sages of Realms lore -
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Off the top of my head - Turmish, Chult, any of the countries on the Chultan Peninsula (Samarach, Thindol, Tashalar, Lapaliya).
That would be 'very dark', as you put it.
For a more Semetic/Meditteranean Olive Tone, anywhere along the Shining South, Old Empires, and the Shaar.
That would be from Faerūn proper - many more choices further afield.
Best choice centralized to Faerūn would be Turmish. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 04:50:00
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| The average Durparian is often described as dark-skinned. As are the Turami people of Unther. |
"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Lady Kazandra on 22 Mar 2008 04:50:54 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 09:37:27
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According to Races of Faerun, p. 106 et seq. such humans live in
- the Jungles of Chult. The inhabitents of the Chultan peninsula, called the Chultans, are tall, ebony-skinned humans who migrated north millenia ago from a great island in the southern seas of Abir-Toril.
- Durpar, Estagund, Veldron and Var the Golden. The humans short and dark-skinned humans living here are called the Durpari. There is a history of enslavement of these people by the Mulan of Mulhorand (around -1000 DR). So my guess is, that decendents from enslaved Durpari can still be found in Mulhorand and maybe Unther today.
- Turmish. Native to the western shores of the Alamber Sea, the humans called the Turmari were driven westwards by the migration of the Mulan after the Fall if the Imaskari Empire in -2488 DR. The mahogany-skinned, flat-faced Turami now inhabit the southern coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars known as Turmish. A minority population lives in Chessenta, Unther and Mulhorand as well. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 22 Mar 2008 09:44:39 |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 09:50:15
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| And of course the Drow and Half-drow...(if you do not mean only humans) |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
Edited by - BARDOBARBAROS on 22 Mar 2008 09:54:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 14:15:18
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There are no black-skinned people in the Realms. Because artists couldn't get it right, they were all retconned to blue or grey skin.  
And mother of Lurue, I wish that what WotC did with drow hadn't inspired that comment!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 14:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are no black-skinned people in the Realms. Because artists couldn't get it right, they were all retconned to blue or grey skin.
And mother of Lurue, I wish that what WotC did with drow hadn't inspired that comment!
Grin. I've said my piece about that change over the years, so I don't need to repeat it. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 18:43:17
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You could always go back to Greyhawk... at least they stayed the same there over the years.
And since that city - Erelhei-Cinlu - appears in an FR product (2e DotU), there's no reason why you couldn't use them in FR (connection through the Underland, as per Monte Cook's Beyond Countless Doorways - an transitive plane that connects all worlds Underdarks) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 19:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You could always go back to Greyhawk... at least they stayed the same there over the years.
And since that city - Erelhei-Cinlu - appears in an FR product (2e DotU), there's no reason why you couldn't use them in FR (connection through the Underland, as per Monte Cook's Beyond Countless Doorways - an transitive plane that connects all worlds Underdarks)
Can you give me the page # for Erelhei-Cinlu? And mayhap the general area where to find the city... I'm taking my players through GDQ  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6673 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:02:07
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Eric Boyd actually did a short paragraph in DDGttU to account for the listing of a GH drow city in the drow cities of the Realms. It didn't survive editing.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:15:38
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| I'd like to point out that the answer depends on how one defines "black people." |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eric Boyd actually did a short paragraph in DDGttU to account for the listing of a GH drow city in the drow cities of the Realms. It didn't survive editing.
-- George Krashos
So is there a reference in the guide or not? This is kinda crucial to me as for how I plan the GDQ stuff in my campaign. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You could always go back to Greyhawk... at least they stayed the same there over the years.
And since that city - Erelhei-Cinlu - appears in an FR product (2e DotU), there's no reason why you couldn't use them in FR (connection through the Underland, as per Monte Cook's Beyond Countless Doorways - an transitive plane that connects all worlds Underdarks)
Can you give me the page # for Erelhei-Cinlu? And mayhap the general area where to find the city... I'm taking my players through GDQ
Erelhei-Cinlu appears as a reference in a listing of known drow cities, on pg. 98. There is nothing more mentioned about the city in Drow of the Underdark. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 19:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And mother of Lurue, I wish that what WotC did with drow hadn't inspired that comment!
I get the feeling there's something here I missed? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 23:44:48
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Basically, the text about the drow skin tone in the Underdark sourcebook was changed because artists supposedly couldn't draw/paint/etc ebony/obsidian skinned drow.
Rich Baker said that they only did this in one sourcebook in the last 20 or so years because the artists had a difficult time drawing drow... thus the text was changed to match the artist images.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 00:59:40
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| And I think that's bogus. Rather than send art back and/or demand that the artists match the art to the description (which didn't happen oft in 3.x, anyway), they simply caved and issued a retcon. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 01:20:32
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Alternatively, if the artists refused, it could have simply been decided to just leave that particular image out of the sourcebook itself, and the associated text in its original form.
There are plenty of drow images elsewhere, and published in previous Realms sources after all.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 01:30:57
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Do any exist?
I also spent some time a great while ago wondering where someone of perhaps an African-like heritage could be from. Mind you this was well before I knew much of anything really about the Realms.
Just looking at our own world, the areas below Egypt are predominantly "black" African, so I looked at the areas of the Forgotten Realms to make a similar comparison.
Pretty much I made the Shaar the "mixing point" of my Realms and the people there were plains type Africans...as well as points south.
I actually had the Chultans as more of a Mezo-American type of people or natives similar to the Amazon Basin peoples.
If you want Canon...I'm not one to know much about it...my Forgotten Realms campaigns are what I make them with my players...we don't tend to stick to Canon because it gets in the way of us having fun sometimes. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 13:39:34
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| I've always gotten the impression that Chultans are an "African-like" people. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Drunken Master
Acolyte
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 13:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Basically, the text about the drow skin tone in the Underdark sourcebook was changed because artists supposedly couldn't draw/paint/etc ebony/obsidian skinned drow.
Rich Baker said that they only did this in one sourcebook in the last 20 or so years because the artists had a difficult time drawing drow... thus the text was changed to match the artist images.
As an illustrator myself, I can explain this: using black on a figure in a painting takes all the life out of it. Painters pretty much always shade skin tones with purples, browns, or cool or warm grays (that is, grays with color added to them). So this makes "black-skinned" drow quite an artistic challenge in a painting. (A black & white ink drawing does not present this problem, of course.)
Some artists have done a better job than others with their representation of the drow skin tone - for instance, I really can't stand Easley's Drizzt, but I think Todd Lockwood gets the drow skin tones pretty right on, and I like Raven Mimura's yathrinshee illustration a lot (Player's Guide to Faerun). But having literally "black" skin on a figure in a painting really isn't feasible as it simply deadens the artwork.
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Erik Nowak
Graphic Designer, Blackdirge Publishing |
Edited by - Drunken Master on 24 Mar 2008 13:52:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 15:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Drunken Master
As an illustrator myself, I can explain this: using black on a figure in a painting takes all the life out of it. Painters pretty much always shade skin tones with purples, browns, or cool or warm grays (that is, grays with color added to them). So this makes "black-skinned" drow quite an artistic challenge in a painting. (A black & white ink drawing does not present this problem, of course.)
Some artists have done a better job than others with their representation of the drow skin tone - for instance, I really can't stand Easley's Drizzt, but I think Todd Lockwood gets the drow skin tones pretty right on, and I like Raven Mimura's yathrinshee illustration a lot (Player's Guide to Faerun). But having literally "black" skin on a figure in a painting really isn't feasible as it simply deadens the artwork.
Bah. It has been done before: http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/gh/gh-wg12.htm
The fact that it has been done shows that it can be done by other artists. And if the customer (in this case, WotC) tells an artist to do artwork matching a certain description, then the artist is obligated to meet those demands. If they don't, they shouldn't get paid, and the art shouldn't be used. The last thing the customer should do is say that since it's too difficult for the artist, then the description needs to be changed.
It can be done. It has been done (and I'll argue that it was done without deadening the artwork). Therefore, it should be done. With clear evidence that it is possible, any reasons why it isn't are simply excuses. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Mar 2008 15:32:55 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 16:14:13
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| Man, I totally forgot about that picture... and I owned this module back in 89/90...I think |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 23:28:22
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It's a nice picture, I'll say that much. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 01:09:49
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| Well, she looks kinda dead to me. I agree with Wooly that artists should do as they are told, even if the end result is silly looking. It's not their role to tell designers that their concepts are bad. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 02:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
So is there a reference in the guide or not? This is kinda crucial to me as for how I plan the GDQ stuff in my campaign.
As Sage has said, the reference was on a list of 'known Drow cities' - a Realms-specific list, I might add. That doesn't mean it is in FR, but it does mean that FR Drow know about it, and most likely had some sort of contact with those Drow (else, how would they have found out the name?)
Thats why I sugested using that wonderful 3rd party source, which postulates that below the deep Underdark, there is an even more sinister Underealm called the Underland, which is in reality a seperate Underdark-type plane that connects to every worlds Underdark. I use it to explain why a lot of the same things live in every prime worlds Underdark, plus its just plain cool to connect them all like that.
Thanks for pointing that out Wooly - you made me dig through all my old GH modules to find it. The artist was Roger Loveless (appropriate last name for a guy who does Drow).
Anyhow, I searched in vain for an online gallery for him, but it seams all he does is Christian Religous Art now (and absolutely NO mention of his past working as a fantasy/D&D artist!)  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2008 02:49:21 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 03:25:05
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| Wow, I need to go back through some of my d20 resources again. I completely forgot abotu Underland, and that's a damn cool concept. Thanks for reminding me of that one Markustay. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 03:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks for pointing that out Wooly - you made me dig through all my old GH modules to find it. The artist was Roger Loveless (appropriate last name for a guy who does Drow).
Anyhow, I searched in vain for an online gallery for him, but it seams all he does is Christian Religous Art now (and absolutely NO mention of his past working as a fantasy/D&D artist!)
Yeah, I noted that myself. I would have rather posted a link to the original artwork, instead of the cover of a module, but I didn't have any choice.  |
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Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 19:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are no black-skinned people in the Realms. Because artists couldn't get it right, they were all retconned to blue or grey skin.
And mother of Lurue, I wish that what WotC did with drow hadn't inspired that comment!
 Although I do not personally care for the topic and think its a waste of time and should even be considered taboo, I must pely say that I TOTALLY disagree with this claim. I also think that there is too much worrying about how characters were depicted by what artists and will say this: There ARE the equivalent of blacks in the Realms and the term "black skin" or "ebony skin" is NOT true black or ebony. No one is PURE black like a crayon and it is ridiculous and offensive to limit the beauty of the imaginary world with such things as "how things were supposed to be portrayed" because of how they were originally made. This sort of pondering ruins the fantasy experience in my view.  |
Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 20:20:19
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Just for clarification, Wooly was refering to drow, not "black people" as in people from the real world with dark brown skin.
Which brings me back to what I said before, it's important to define what exactly is meant by "black people." This is definitely a touchy subject. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36826 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2008 : 21:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are no black-skinned people in the Realms. Because artists couldn't get it right, they were all retconned to blue or grey skin.
And mother of Lurue, I wish that what WotC did with drow hadn't inspired that comment!
Although I do not personally care for the topic and think its a waste of time and should even be considered taboo, I must pely say that I TOTALLY disagree with this claim. I also think that there is too much worrying about how characters were depicted by what artists and will say this: There ARE the equivalent of blacks in the Realms and the term "black skin" or "ebony skin" is NOT true black or ebony. No one is PURE black like a crayon and it is ridiculous and offensive to limit the beauty of the imaginary world with such things as "how things were supposed to be portrayed" because of how they were originally made. This sort of pondering ruins the fantasy experience in my view.
I was making a joke, based on how drow skintones were retconned to fit what artists did, rather than forcing the artists to follow a description. I was not saying that there are no dark-skinned people at all in the Realms. I've followed this setting for almost 20 years; there's no way I could make a mistake like that.
And the descriptions we've had of drow are that their skintone is pure black. I don't see why there is any issue with having this or any other skintone in a fantasy world, so long as it makes sense -- and having skin as dark as possible on an Underdark race makes sense (even if the corresponding white hair doesn't). It also makes perfect sense that surface worlders of any race will have varied skintones, particularly based on their geographic region and/or heritage. |
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Black people/nations in the realms
