| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Suzerain
Acolyte
11 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 20:55:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Mystra herself was resigned to performing the duties of her office, not trying to force every spellcaster to be good aligned. It seems to me that certain gods had "offices" whose duties were beyond the personal preferences of the actual god that held that portfolio.
I think that's a very good point, that the god could be above his or her own personal preferences. However, in D&D, alignment tells us so much about the character, his or her motivations, and what sorts of choices the character would make. If Bane were, say LN, and yet is the god of tyranny (which we all would agree is evil), would we just say that he is fulfilling his portfolio and putting his personal preferences aside? Shouldn't the god of tyranny be evil? In the same strain, why should the goddess of magic be good at all?
If Mystra is in Nirvana and choosing, for example, which new spells and magical items are allowed to exist in the Realms (as is suggested in 2E's "Running the Realms" pp. 47), why wouldn't she just fulfill her personal preferences and have a prejudice towards spells and items that could be used for the good? Perhaps in seeing how this could be unbalancing, this is again mentioned in the 3E setting, on pp. 247, "Although she is good and has the ability to prevent the creation of new spells and magic items that her philosophy opposes, she rarely exerts this ability unless the creation could threaten the Weave or the balance of magic in general." But again, she is an otherwise good character who is consistently setting her own personal preferences aside and acting in a fairly neutral manner? That is a problem, or in the least it represents a conflict.
quote:
Not to mention there was some evidence to show that the longer Mystra performed her duty, and the farther away she was from her mortal life, the more she would start to shift back to LN, which is essentially the "default" alignment of the Deity of Magic.
I know that when we get to 3E Realms, that players could choose either NG or LN, and this is justified if the character was a follower of Mystra before the ToT. However, the role that magic should play in the world is a big issue in a magical world. I think it becomes a bigger problem when one considers the role of evil wizards. How can Mystra sit by idly while her gift to the world is used for evil ends?
quote:
So I guess the short question I have is why wasn't it just enough to say Mystra had further retreated from he mortal origins and had become LN?
Well, I have no way of really knowing if a decision to remove Mystra is because of alignment issues, or if she will even actually be killed. The timeline of 1376 through 1385 DR in The Grand History of the Realms, as far as I can tell, is a potential future. We can't know if that is actually what will come to pass. We have to keep reading.
But, assuming I was right and to answer your question, I would just say that having Mystra simply revert to LN would be really boring (or relatively boring). Instead, why not throw out this potential future where she could be killed which fuels a lot of speculation from fans new and old, and then we eagerly gobble up the novel or adventure or sourcebook that resolves the storyline? If it's done as well as the ToT, whatever upheaval may result and whatever actually happens will just forward the story further into the future.
Things can't stay the same forever. Worlds change. And sometimes they change really quickly. |
Edited by - Suzerain on 24 Dec 2007 21:12:04 |
 |
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 20:59:10
|
| Suzerain, many of your questions are answered in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, by Troy Denning. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
Suzerain
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2007 : 21:18:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Suzerain, many of your questions are answered in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, by Troy Denning.
No, I read that. And I agree that it explains a lot of how the NG Mystra is as a character. And I found it all very interesting and fun to read. However, I still think Mystra's alignment is a problematic because overall it is unbalancing for all of the reasons I stated. Again, whether it's actually a problem is debatable.
But, for those who like Mystra the way she is, why is it better that she be good as opposed to neutral? |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 03:31:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
But, for those who like Mystra the way she is, why is it better that she be good as opposed to neutral?
Because the mortal called Midnight became the goddess of magic at the end of the ToT. She took the name "Mystra" in honor of the (at the time) recently deceased Mystra, but she is Midnight, a Neutral Good Chondathan Human Female that ascended to godhood. Cyric kept the name "Cyric" because he loves himself so much; but Mystra is in fact Midnight.
In short, I guess my answer is this: Midnight/Mystra is good because Midnight was good in her mortal life. Pure and simple. This is a message of hope to all mortals who dream of one day becoming gods and goddesses: they can retain their personality/alignment regardless of the mantle of godhood they will acquire. |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 25 Dec 2007 03:32:51 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 18:04:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
I think the being "too good" aspect could drive a choice to remove Mystra as we know her to be now. Before the Time of Troubles, Mystra was Lawful Neutral, and afterward, Midnight Mystra was Neutral Good. I suppose a question to ask would be, why should a force of nature (as far as fantasy worlds go), and especially one as important as magic, favor good over evil? It should probably be more like war, neither favoring good or evil (or at least that's how I have it in my homebrew), though I would neither have it lawful nor chaotic. Magic is a tool, so it can be used for good or evil, to bring order or chaos, or to maintain a balance. Having the goddess of magic be good over the long-run could have one's magical world becoming too bright.
Well, a lot of good and evil deities have portfolios that are definitely more neutral than anything else, yet only Mystra tends to be singled out.
Also, Rich Baker has said there will not be another Mystra or Mystra-like figure of any alignment. It's not just the alignment issue (which, in my opinion, isn't really an issue), it's because Mystra and her Chosen were perceived to be dominating the setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Dec 2007 18:05:58 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 18:07:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I've said it before, the odd thing about Midnight is that she was LN in the four books that stated her and then all of a sudden she became NG once she became a deity. I still say it was a weird TSR error.
Heh, that is strange. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 18:10:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
Well, I have no way of really knowing if a decision to remove Mystra is because of alignment issues, or if she will even actually be killed. The timeline of 1376 through 1385 DR in The Grand History of the Realms, as far as I can tell, is a potential future. We can't know if that is actually what will come to pass. We have to keep reading.
Nope--it's not a potential future, it is the future. Rich Baker has said repeatedly (because he keeps being asked) that the designers are moving forward and will not retract what they've written in the GHotR.
Mystra will be killed, and will not be replaced. Her position will be gone--Rich even said, when asked, that someone like Shar isn't going to take over, because that would just be reintroducing the problem that they are trying to correct (I'm not agreeing that Mystra was a problem, just reporting what has been said). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Suzerain
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 20:17:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Nope--it's not a potential future, it is the future. Rich Baker has said repeatedly (because he keeps being asked) that the designers are moving forward and will not retract what they've written in the GHotR.
Okay, but in the GHotR, it explicitly states on pp. 4 that the current year in the campaign setting is 1375 DR. I understand not retracting what has been written, but it would appear that 1376 through 1385 DR has not yet occurred. That's what made me think that what is written there is a potential future obviously related to the Black Chronology (i.e. what will come to pass if the chronology is true).
So, I forsee that the new setting will be a setting as if the prophecy has come true. And whether it comes true or not will be determined over the next ten years of Realms-time.
What appears novel is releasing the future setting as a stand-alone campaign and also publishing novels in that time era. And what's neat about it is that after it's run it's course, a trilogy or set of novels can wrap up the storyline, prevent the prophecy from ever coming true, and then things can go back to "normal" (with some changes, of course), perhaps in time for the fifth edition, but maybe they wouldn't wait that long.
Or, at least, that's what I'd do: make this a future storyline that eventually wraps up and we go back to the normal continuity.
In any event, until I see the products (novels and setting) that bring about this dark future, and until we see how it ultimately plays out, I'm just not certain that this is the certain future. It still appears to be a future that might happen. And it may yet happen, only to be overturned later. It would appear that a potential overall arch would be for adventurers to travel back in time or to the outer planes to prevent this disaster from occurring.
It would appear (quite) radical to plan to make such a drastic change permanent. Why not do it, see how it goes, wrap it up, and heck if the new Realms is very popular, keep both settings around? One with this dark future, and the other the "old" Realms where the prophecy is prevented?
There's no reason to do something this drastic and not have a means of undoing it. So, my best guess is this will wind up being a temporary change, a new adventure in the history of the Realms. And eventually, we'll get back home. Anyway, it's just a theory. I have no way of really knowing. |
|
|
|
Xandos Anskul
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 21:45:53
|
One thing to think about if the Shadow Weave is going to go down as well as the Weave...
We know that the Netherese Enclave of Sakkors was raised in 1374 to join Shade in officially recreating the Empire of Netheril. If both Weave and Shadow Weave fail in 1385, do both Shade and Sakkor crash and burn a-la Karsus' mistake? |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2007 : 01:23:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
So, I forsee that the new setting will be a setting as if the prophecy has come true. And whether it comes true or not will be determined over the next ten years of Realms-time.
Fine, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2007 : 05:08:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xandos Anskul
One thing to think about if the Shadow Weave is going to go down as well as the Weave...
We know that the Netherese Enclave of Sakkors was raised in 1374 to join Shade in officially recreating the Empire of Netheril. If both Weave and Shadow Weave fail in 1385, do both Shade and Sakkor crash and burn a-la Karsus' mistake?
I'd like to see that, but I doubt they'll go that far. I think that magic will simply burst the bonds of the Weave -- rather than being forced into a grid, it will now exist everywhere.
Of course, the loss of the Weave does seem to have some disastrous effects on spellslingers, so it's not unreasonable to assume that existing magical effects will also be screwed... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 11:13:53
|
Why can't Mystra's alignment be cyclical? Perhaps part of the evolution of magic requires that she "cycles" through the alignments to provide a different philosophical paradigm through which magic is viewed and new magic is created?
Perhaps in her heart of hearts she is true neutral but her time as:
- chaotic neutral sees the unfettered advance of super-powerful magic;
- lawful neutral sees the advance of balanced and ordered magic and the restraint of super-powered magic; and
- neutral good sees magic developed more for the common weal.
The next stop could be neutral evil.
Once again, a Realms problem is not created by the game world or game rules as such. It's the demands placed on the setting by the need to publish novels that is causing the problems now... and no doubt will also cause problems in 4E.
|
Best
E |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 13:39:28
|
I hate the whole Mystra's alignment discussion. It was only ever a factor in one novel -- nowhere else! And in that one novel, the issue was dealt with.
It amazes me that out of all the novels Denning wrote, that one minor plot point is the thing that people remember the most and continue to dwell on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 13:48:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I hate the whole Mystra's alignment discussion. It was only ever a factor in one novel -- nowhere else! And in that one novel, the issue was dealt with.
It amazes me that out of all the novels Denning wrote, that one minor plot point is the thing that people remember the most and continue to dwell on.
Its even more interesting when you consider that most people that cite this as a problem remember that she had a hard time separating her alignment from her position in the book, but forget that the end of the book essentially "resolved" this issue with Mystra and Kelemvor realizing what they have to do in their godly positions.
|
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 15:16:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It amazes me that out of all the novels Denning wrote, that one minor plot point is the thing that people remember the most and continue to dwell on.
Well, people who dislike Mystra as a goddess/character need something to hang onto. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Suzerain
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 18:15:04
|
Well, I'm sorry to have brought up a sore topic. I had been out of the loop for a long while, and then got myself a copy of the GHotR, and saw this potential future of Mystra's death. I googled it, found this forum, and noted that some of the discussion suggested that were creative reasons for destroying Mystra's current incarnation. I don't necessarily dislike the current Mystra - in fact, I liked her role in the ToT and its sequels - I was just suggesting that her being good-aligned could create problems.
Out of curiosity, where can one look up what those creative reasons for killing her are? Is it on WotC's message boards or in an article? Thanks. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 18:44:19
|
You didn't really bring up a sore topic... The whole alignment thing is just something that has an unfortunate tendency to pop up in discussions about Mystra.
The apparent "problems" with Mystra are that some people can't get past the alignment thing (though it has never been a factor, particularly in-game), and that many people perceive her as being too powerful and her Chosen as a kind of Justice League of the Realms. The people who really know the setting know that this isn't true, but the current aim of the designers appears to be to cater to those who aren't fans of the setting, instead of the people who have supported it for the last 20 years. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 19:01:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
but the current aim of the designers appears to be to cater to those who aren't fans of the setting, instead of the people who have supported it for the last 20 years.
And ironically enough, the ones who will come back to the Realms after this 4e thing fizzles out. Which, if they continue with these major changes, probably will. As I don't think the amount of new players gained will compete with how many of us will say "no thanks" to 4e FR. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2007 : 19:26:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
but the current aim of the designers appears to be to cater to those who aren't fans of the setting, instead of the people who have supported it for the last 20 years.
And ironically enough, the ones who will come back to the Realms after this 4e thing fizzles out. Which, if they continue with these major changes, probably will. As I don't think the amount of new players gained will compete with how many of us will say "no thanks" to 4e FR.
I concur, on all points. In fact, just an hour ago, I was pondering how to build on what we know to launch a reset. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Suzerain
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 05:02:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You didn't really bring up a sore topic... The whole alignment thing is just something that has an unfortunate tendency to pop up in discussions about Mystra.
The apparent "problems" with Mystra are that some people can't get past the alignment thing (though it has never been a factor, particularly in-game), and that many people perceive her as being too powerful and her Chosen as a kind of Justice League of the Realms. The people who really know the setting know that this isn't true, but the current aim of the designers appears to be to cater to those who aren't fans of the setting, instead of the people who have supported it for the last 20 years.
That's what I was kind of curious about. Where can I read more from the designers about where they're coming from with the new edition of FR? I had read Ed Greenwood's thoughts in the questions section, but I was wondering where I could read about why Mystra is being killed from the designers themselves. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 05:40:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You didn't really bring up a sore topic... The whole alignment thing is just something that has an unfortunate tendency to pop up in discussions about Mystra.
The apparent "problems" with Mystra are that some people can't get past the alignment thing (though it has never been a factor, particularly in-game), and that many people perceive her as being too powerful and her Chosen as a kind of Justice League of the Realms. The people who really know the setting know that this isn't true, but the current aim of the designers appears to be to cater to those who aren't fans of the setting, instead of the people who have supported it for the last 20 years.
That's what I was kind of curious about. Where can I read more from the designers about where they're coming from with the new edition of FR? I had read Ed Greenwood's thoughts in the questions section, but I was wondering where I could read about why Mystra is being killed from the designers themselves.
Rich Baker is the one doing the most talking. Some of his posts are copied over here, but he mostly answers questions on the WotC forums. He does answer some here, too, but the bulk of his forum time is over there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 06:37:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You didn't really bring up a sore topic... The whole alignment thing is just something that has an unfortunate tendency to pop up in discussions about Mystra.
The apparent "problems" with Mystra are that some people can't get past the alignment thing (though it has never been a factor, particularly in-game), and that many people perceive her as being too powerful and her Chosen as a kind of Justice League of the Realms. The people who really know the setting know that this isn't true, but the current aim of the designers appears to be to cater to those who aren't fans of the setting, instead of the people who have supported it for the last 20 years.
That's what I was kind of curious about. Where can I read more from the designers about where they're coming from with the new edition of FR? I had read Ed Greenwood's thoughts in the questions section, but I was wondering where I could read about why Mystra is being killed from the designers themselves.
Rich Baker is the one doing the most talking. Some of his posts are copied over here, but he mostly answers questions on the WotC forums. He does answer some here, too, but the bulk of his forum time is over there.
And most of the posts are posted in this thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9912 |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Suzerain
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 09:48:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And most of the posts are posted in this thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9912
Ok, I went there, and this stood out to me:
quote:
"No novel series specifically "cover" the Spellplague, but we have several series currently in progress that will span "over" it and incorporate its effects. In other words, you'll see snapshots of the Spellplague in a number of different books. As it turns out my own new trilogy takes place completely post-Spellplague, but some of our other current series will touch on it more -- for example, Richard Byers' Thay series and Thomas Reid's Kaanyr Vhok series (don't have my books in front of me, so forgive me for not using the proper series titles)."
Why no novel? This whole death of Mystra storyline would have been a perfect ending for the ToT series. If nothing else, it would sell like hotcakes. It might even make the changes easier to accept as canon. For example, when Zhentil Keep got destroyed, would anyone have accepted it without Prince of Lies? I thought that was a really clever novel and a perfect sequel to the ToT. It made me think that though the destruction of the Keep was Realms-shaking, it had been done for a good reason. And, it's not as if there wasn't an opportunity for it to be rebuilt and even for Bane to return.
There ought to be a novel telling this final chapter, no? Am I alone on that? It just seems pretty surprising.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 14:25:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And most of the posts are posted in this thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9912
Ok, I went there, and this stood out to me:
quote:
"No novel series specifically "cover" the Spellplague, but we have several series currently in progress that will span "over" it and incorporate its effects. In other words, you'll see snapshots of the Spellplague in a number of different books. As it turns out my own new trilogy takes place completely post-Spellplague, but some of our other current series will touch on it more -- for example, Richard Byers' Thay series and Thomas Reid's Kaanyr Vhok series (don't have my books in front of me, so forgive me for not using the proper series titles)."
Why no novel? This whole death of Mystra storyline would have been a perfect ending for the ToT series. If nothing else, it would sell like hotcakes. It might even make the changes easier to accept as canon. For example, when Zhentil Keep got destroyed, would anyone have accepted it without Prince of Lies? I thought that was a really clever novel and a perfect sequel to the ToT. It made me think that though the destruction of the Keep was Realms-shaking, it had been done for a good reason. And, it's not as if there wasn't an opportunity for it to be rebuilt and even for Bane to return.
There ought to be a novel telling this final chapter, no? Am I alone on that? It just seems pretty surprising.
There should have been a novel covering the return of Bane, too, but they left that one alone.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 15:13:26
|
Indeed. WotC has repeatedly said "no" to Ed and a few others with respect to the question of a novel focusing on Bane's return. All we have are the few tidbits in Faiths & Pantheons and Grand History.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Suzerain
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 19:49:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. WotC has repeatedly said "no" to Ed and a few others with respect to the question of a novel focusing on Bane's return. All we have are the few tidbits in Faiths & Pantheons and Grand History.
Huh? But those are huge events. Surely they would sell, no? With that in mind, what about Fzoul's ascension as the tyrant of the Moonsea as the subplot to Bane's return? I thought that was a really interesting plotline for the transition from 2nd to 3rd Edition, too. Generally speaking, I never was opposed to these many changes, and I think they were a lot of fun to learn about and to follow. I surely would have bought them in novel form.
I still think that these new changes would appear a lot more acceptable if they were steeped in a grand storyline told in the novels. I think the fanbase as a whole has become accustomed to big events like the Spellplague. Part of what has made them fun was to follow the story. I understand wanting to create a plotline for the changes in magic that occur from the 3rd to 4th edition. But they don't need to justify the changes based on mechanics, do they?
I would think all of the justification necessary would come in the form a great story. Their books are just awesome. The story they're laying out is the final chapter in an epic tale. It should be told. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 22:20:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
Well, I'm sorry to have brought up a sore topic. I had been out of the loop for a long while, and then got myself a copy of the GHotR, and saw this potential future of Mystra's death.
Since Mystra is definitely being killed off for 4E, I don't think her death can be called a "potential future". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 22:44:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
Huh? But those are huge events. Surely they would sell, no? With that in mind, what about Fzoul's ascension as the tyrant of the Moonsea as the subplot to Bane's return?
Cloak & Dagger also briefly touches on these particular topics.
As it is, I believe WotC may just be keeping the subject of Bane's return as vague as possible until such time as they actually feel the need to detail it further.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Dec 2007 22:45:29 |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 23:22:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Suzerain
Huh? But those are huge events. Surely they would sell, no? With that in mind, what about Fzoul's ascension as the tyrant of the Moonsea as the subplot to Bane's return?
Cloak & Dagger also briefly touches on these particular topics.
As it is, I believe WotC may just be keeping the subject of Bane's return as vague as possible until such time as they actually feel the need to detail it further.
But.....a novel detailing the Tyrant's return would sell like no one other! I would buy one in a second, as would almost all FR fans. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 23:44:14
|
Well, from what Eric and Ed have both said here, there's a specific mindset toward making sure *ALL* the facts regarding the return of Bane are plotted "just right." And given that this is a divine event as such, I would rather that they both took as much time as they needed to fully plot out the events surrounding the return of Bane for this "hypothetical novel," than to rush it and possibly miss something important.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The Spellplague: Shar's failure?
