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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 17:13:07
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| Blueblade, almost all of them come from the current WOTC FR game designer thread. One of them came from a different thread, which was on the 1st page of the WOTC FR boards in the General forum. If I find them in his journal, then I write they came from his journal. However, most of the time just assume they came from WOTC's FR boards less I say otherwise. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 29 Nov 2007 17:16:10 |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 17:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As usual, Rich's posts from today.
Currently the text in the Player's Handbook says something to this effect: Paladins are almost always lawful or good. Chaotic or evil paladins do exist in the world, but they're almost never heroes; go see the DM if you want to play one.
umm... am I missing something? are we talking 4E? Because as far as I know, in the PH it says paladins must be LG not L or G. unless I'm missing something. and where did evil paladins come from? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 18:05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As usual, Rich's posts from today.
Currently the text in the Player's Handbook says something to this effect: Paladins are almost always lawful or good. Chaotic or evil paladins do exist in the world, but they're almost never heroes; go see the DM if you want to play one.
umm... am I missing something? are we talking 4E? Because as far as I know, in the PH it says paladins must be LG not L or G. unless I'm missing something. and where did evil paladins come from?
Indeed you are since this is all 4e info. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 18:11:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As usual, Rich's posts from today.
Currently the text in the Player's Handbook says something to this effect: Paladins are almost always lawful or good. Chaotic or evil paladins do exist in the world, but they're almost never heroes; go see the DM if you want to play one.
umm... am I missing something? are we talking 4E? Because as far as I know, in the PH it says paladins must be LG not L or G. unless I'm missing something. and where did evil paladins come from?
Indeed you are since this is all 4e info. :)
well, I assumed because of the word currently that it was 3.5 |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 18:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As usual, Rich's posts from today.
Currently the text in the Player's Handbook says something to this effect: Paladins are almost always lawful or good. Chaotic or evil paladins do exist in the world, but they're almost never heroes; go see the DM if you want to play one.
umm... am I missing something? are we talking 4E? Because as far as I know, in the PH it says paladins must be LG not L or G. unless I'm missing something. and where did evil paladins come from?
Indeed you are since this is all 4e info. :)
well, I assumed because of the word currently that it was 3.5
Aye but the thread title is 4E FR. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2007 : 21:10:04
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| so it is. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 00:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
so it is.
ROFL.
P.S. I am not trying to be mean, I just found that quite funny. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 30 Nov 2007 00:53:19 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 01:05:07
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Interesting news: Rich has, in that thread, considered (along with his fellow designers) the arguments of a forum member (Greenknight) in favor of disposing Tyr and elevating Torm in his place! I thought Greenknight's arguments were quite good and it's nice to hear that he might have affected the 4E Realms. Go check it out!
Disclaimer: I'm not a "Tyr hater" but I have to agree that he's been sullied by the whole "Tyr kills Helm" love triangle plot. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Nov 2007 01:05:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 03:16:03
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You beat me to it. 
Here's the direct link to the post in question -
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14458644&postcount=1246
Nice to see we (the fans) can still have an effect on them, even this late in the game. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 03:26:45
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And for those who don't want to go to the wotc boards.
"This is a really interesting suggestion, and a well-reasoned argument.
So interesting and so well-reasoned, in fact, that I took the liberty of forwarding it to the other designers working on FR 4e. We had a brief huddle this morning, and I think we're going to implement it: Torm in, Tyr out. More details than that I can't reveal yet, but it actually helps "spackle in" a couple of pantheon events we were working on anyway.
Thanks for the excellent suggestion, Green Knight!" |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 06:53:13
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The post of Green Knight is well-reasoned, indeed - much better than the whole "Tyr kills Helm"-story. But if the story of Green Knight would become official, then the "Tyr kills Helm"-plot would be redeemed - at least a little bit.
Of course, then the Lord of the Northwind wouldn't become the god of justice and paladins, but this is a price worth to be paid. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 12:08:59
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I agree with you, Ayuken! Green Knight really roll a critical hit with his arguments! I think that this is, actually, the best thing written "for the 4th Ed. Realms", until now. 
I will be happy if Green Knight idea be used. It´s intelligent and interesting (of course, my tyrran players will stay a little annoyed).  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Iliana N-letur
Acolyte
Netherlands
13 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 12:13:01
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| I wonder where that leaves Ilmater? With several knightly orders, serious presence in the north and south of Faerun, a demi-god status could be possible, but Duty and Loyalty would fit fairly well with his current portfolio. After all Ilmater had been a loyal part of the Triad - not rewarding him, but elevating somebody else feels wrong. |
A small (4'9") moon elf, with odd pale golden hair and startling violet eyes. See her for the first time, there's fair bit of Faerie 'fascinate' involved.
A slightly curved sword and pseudo dragon familiar are never far away. |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 12:56:08
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| Presumably the 4E Talona will be a Lesser Power in the court of Bane, so having Ilmater be a Lesser Power in the court of Torm would be nice continuation the "ying versus yang" theme mentioned in the Gleemax thread (especially if they move Loviatar over to the court of Shar). |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 15:42:01
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| I actually dislike GreenKnight's arguments about Tyr. The first reason, that no one likes or find the Tyr-Helm-Tymora love triangle feasible, seems to me to be saying that "2 wrongs make a right." In other words, you screwed up by getting rid of some gods already, so get rid of some more. His point (2) about Tyr is a personal preference of not liking an interloper deity from earth mythology. The other three points are fine, but not definitive, especially since Tyr is supposed to be pretty popular himself. Besides, where would Tyr go? Anyway, I'm just getting less and less interested in all the 4e fluff (FR or otherwise), the more I hear about it. Too bad, since the rule set potentially could be quite interesting. |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 16:08:59
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| Wizards seems to be practising top-down world-building in a setting that already exists, and that, like most good and popular D&D worlds, owes much of its richness to arising gradually out of stories and RPG sessions. Tyr or Torm, a diagrammatic, planned, rationalized, pruned-down pantheon is a very different kind of thinking from the Realms' as-if-real, unpredictable, something-new-round-each corner abundance. And I'm afraid I don't believe any of these divine shenanigans anyway: Wizards seems to have chosen the worst possible depiction of the gods, i.e. the profaned, humanlike deities shown in the Avatar novels, over all the rest of Realmslore. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 17:35:22
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quote:
Originally posted by freyar
I actually dislike GreenKnight's arguments about Tyr. The first reason, that no one likes or find the Tyr-Helm-Tymora love triangle feasible, seems to me to be saying that "2 wrongs make a right." In other words, you screwed up by getting rid of some gods already, so get rid of some more.
Good point, although Greenknight did address this issue in his arguments.
I'm not saying I'm going to use the 4E version of the Realms because of this. However, I am happy and impressed that a fan was able to change an unpleasant situation for the better (my opinion, obviously!)--although my delight is tempered by the plain fact that there was luck involved here too, as Rich stated that what Greenknight proposed would fit well into plans that the designers already had for the Realms.
I also have to admit that a part of me was "mad" at Tyr for having killed Helm (a deity I very much liked), so seeing him "punished" for that is kind of pleasing to me. It's evil, I know--after all, Tyr was also a victim: the victim of a horrible, horrible storyline.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Nov 2007 17:40:00 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 20:22:07
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I agree with you, Rino, and I think really that this is the best sequence of events: if Tyr is the personification of justice, he could not be lenient with himself about the death of Helm (or he´ll not more be the personification of Justice.
So, the better solution for Tyr is (finally) be himself, and suffer the consequences of Helm´s death. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 20:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm not saying I'm going to use the 4E version of the Realms because of this. However, I am happy and impressed that a fan was able to change an unpleasant situation for the better (my opinion, obviously!)--although my delight is tempered by the plain fact that there was luck involved here too, as Rich stated that what Greenknight proposed would fit well into plans that the designers already had for the Realms.
Exactly my thoughts. Since it seems as if the "Tyr kills Helm"-plot is already hammered in stone and not subject to further changes, I think the suggestions proposed by Green Knight make a worse plot a little better. Of course, if this whole divine soap opera could be avoided at all, it would be all the better. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2007 : 21:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Of course, if this whole divine soap opera could be avoided at all, it would be all the better.
Here, here! However, it cannot.  I am still trying to figure who had their head up which orifice when they thought up that little bit of plot, and then decided to present it in the fashion that they did at the end of the GHotR.  If I were said person (or people, as it probably was), I would be kicking myself in the sweets about now for that bit of stupidity. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2007 : 03:57:23
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It's extremely rare that I ever want to wish harm onto another poster, but Greenknight just made me wish that. The guys at WoTC do not need more ideas on how to kill off Realmsian gods!
Why not remove Tymora too? Her name has been irrevocably associated with the whole Tyr/Helm/Tymora love triangle mess, she meekly married Tyr, going against everything she's ever stood for and she won't even fit into the new idea of Celestial Courts. Is she going to stick around with Torm as a Greater Goddess? Well, that causes an imbalance, which was the whole reason for the Arranged Marriage! She can't go back to Sune for the same reason. She's even the daughter of an interloper deity. Could be argued that she's just Tyche Mark 2. |
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Maculo
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2007 : 09:00:11
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Some interesting points and arguments here as things got heated.
I wasn't a part of the many online communities back in the 2nd to 3rd edition transition but I did hear a lot of arguments at various gaming stores/locations and conventions. Sounds to me like history is repeating itself as far as fan reactions.
As a whole I'm rather undecided on the 4eFR topic. Some of the things I've heard don't settle right while some sound neat.
Personally, I'll pick up a copy of the new FR book to look it over. More so since Mr. Greenwood (one of my more like authors) is contributing a lot of work to it.
I wonder how undead will be affected as a whole. Can't have some of my favorite fluff characters falling out of cannon. Means more work for me writing up new versions for the home setting.
Long live.. er.. un-live? Larloch and his army of undead who just want to be left alone to experiment. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 00:17:41
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Rich's newest WOTC FR posts from today.
"Hi, Jsaving -- good questions. Let me see what I can do with 'em:
1) Yes, we think the alignments for FR deities are certainly known to players/DMs. We're not trying to create ambiguity with the pantheon, we want you to be able to pick sides and feel confident about your decision. Whether they're widely known to characters in the world is a trickier question. For example, I suspect that deities such as Bane or Cyric must present some "redeeming qualities" to gain a wide support base of basically neutral townsfolk, commoners, etc. For example, maybe the average Zhent looks at Bane as a god of kingship and divine authority, as opposed to tyranny. But that's about as much gray as we'd want to see in that.
2) I think that in general one deity per portfolio is better. Some very broad portfolios can support a couple of overlapping deities, but even then I think each deity has a particular slant on the topic. War, destruction, and misfortune all overlap at least a little bit, but there is certainly room for Tempus, Talos, and Beshaba.
3) I'm of the opinion that if you're playing the highest-level characters possible, and you decide to rid the cosmos of an evil god, your DM should be able to craft that adventure for you. There are plenty of examples in fantasy fiction of heroes destroying gods (the Elric series springs to mind). So maybe 30th-level heroes (remember, there's a new level scale) who decide to take on Bane should be able to succeed... if they do everything right, such as questing for the right artifact ahead of time, paying attention to ancient prophecies about eclipses and people of unique ancestry, and so forth. It shouldn't ever be a "routine" adventure to take down a god, but I think it ought to be possible."
and
"You didn't hear it from me, but I think Selune's going to be a greater god by the time this all falls out... at least a portion of Mystra's power is restored to Selune when Mystra falls. That doesn't make Selune the new goddess of magic, but I wouldn't be surprised if surviving clerics of Mystra tended to turn to Selune in the years following the Spellplague."
and
"Do you mean novels set in the post-Spellplague Realms?
If so, then yes--you'll see plenty. My own upcoming novel "Swordmage" is set entirely post-Spellplague. Most other new novels will be, too (several ongoing series currently in the works will still be spanning the edition for a little while still)." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 00:24:17
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| Has anyone over there asked, point blank, what kind of time jump we're looking at? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 00:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Has anyone over there asked, point blank, what kind of time jump we're looking at?
They have, it never got answered, so I'm assuming WOTC is ignoring such questions at this time. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 01:24:32
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Chris Perkins agreed to be interviewed for the WoTC Podcast thing, and I asked, along with a few other posters, pretty point blank questions to that effect. Mine was
1) What year is the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms setting starting in?
Others can throw up some questions for consideration here. |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 02:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Has anyone over there asked, point blank, what kind of time jump we're looking at?
Rich Baker answered that the exact length of the time jump will be revealed later on. That's why I think it'll be 100 years. If it was ten, why not say so and calm people's minds? But if it's 100, they have to convince people why they should stick around and buy the new FRCS. What's been revealed so far wasn't exactly met with excitement. If WotC confirmed now that the time jump will kill all ongoing campaigns, many potential customers who are on the fence right now might give up on the new and improved Realms™. If they confirm it after a couple of previews that reveal their new ideas for the Realms, they'd have something to show people why they should bite the bullet.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 15:48:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Has anyone over there asked, point blank, what kind of time jump we're looking at?
They have, it never got answered, so I'm assuming WOTC is ignoring such questions at this time.
Yep--that question has been asked many times, and Rich has said that he can't say anything yet.
By the way, I'm happy to hear Selune might get a boost after all this trouble (as I like her), although that doesn't mean I'm going to use the 4E Realms.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Dec 2007 17:03:39 |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 15:55:06
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| 10 years or a 100...Seems to me that it really shouldn't make any difference. It should be something any DM can work with/around, after all, if players can catastrophically alter the course of a game...this shouldn't be much of a challenge... |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 16:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by GRYPHON
10 years or a 100...Seems to me that it really shouldn't make any difference. It should be something any DM can work with/around, after all, if players can catastrophically alter the course of a game...this shouldn't be much of a challenge...
It does make a difference. If your campaign focuses on or even strongly involves non-long-lived PCs, then a 100 year jump would cause problems. For example, a campaign that focuses on preventing nobles from causing problems during Alusair's regency, then a 100 year jump chucks that out the window -- because in 100 years, Azoun V and Alusair are most likely dead, and Azoun VII has prolly quashed most noble opposition. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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4e FR
