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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2008 : 03:59:43
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
I bet this would sound kind of far-fetched,
but has anybody thought about pooling our money
and trying to buy the rights of FR from Hasbro?
I gotta a twenty spot |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2008 : 23:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
While of course the shipping and printing costs do come in to play, keep in mind 2 things with regard to a switch to all-digital:
1. Paper equals a certain level of "prestige." It gets you into bookstores, etc. It's also much harder to pirate, something that large companies relatively new to the digital world, like Hasbro, seem to have an inordinate fear of.
I'm completely in agreement with your definition of how books equal "prestige", and personally I prefer a traditional book to . Despite the hype, I don't think the publishing world will ever go "completely digital" -- that probably doesn't prevent Hasbro/WoTC and other similarly-minded companies trying to sell that view to *their* customers to increase their profits by eliminating printing and shipping costs.
I disagree with you about piracy. Books are easy to scan, and most RPG books are scanned as pirate PDFs in a week or two -- if not even sooner. And there are a lot of "dedicated" scanners, apparently.
quote:
2. Keep in mind that hardcover books are generally seen in the publishing world as a profit-maker - despite having to pay more for printing and shipping, the increase in price more than offsets that. At $40 for the FRCG, you're looking at an extremely healthy profit margin built-in. Much like your favorite software or music, once you cover your costs, you're looking at a fat profit.
It depends how well the books sell, right? And how many customers of your target demographic you manage to sell your books to. For example. AFAIK some (if not most) 3E FR books sold less than WoTC expected, which resulted in their conclusion that there's something "wrong" in FR, and radical changes are required (which we're now seeing taking place in the 4E FR, unfortunately) to lure in more customers. We already saw the latest 3E books becoming "crunchier" in content in order to appeal to players as well as DMs.
And even now you can see WoTC taking certain measures to increase book sales. For example, all the magic items were included in the PHB, and the 'Adventurer's Vault' is meant for players mainly. They also decided to exclude certain "popular" or "key" monsters from MM and include them in MM 2 and MM 3 to ensure that DMs would want to buy those books to get stats for their "favourites".
And it's a cold, hard fact that printing books is more expensive, since you can't eliminate artist or designer/freelancer fees, but you *can* eliminate shipping and printing costs, which results in more profits if you can convince your customers to use digital resources only.
In any case, I don't think RPG books have ever really made "fat profits" for any company -- novels are another matter completely, since they sell better and they're also cheaper to produce than RPG rule books or supplements. Which is also why Black Industries announced that Warhammer 40000 will become a novel line only, and they canceled all the supplements for the Dark Heresy game. WoTC is doing this also with their "three-books-per-setting-and-then-novels-only"-policy.
quote:
I don't think they need DDI to market a D&D MMORPG - they'd just need to have a better product than WoW, et al. Given how badly they've screwed up their online offerings so far, I don't think Blizzard has a lot to worry about any time soon.
However, I do think that rather than trying to get gamers more comfortable with digital sources and online play (I suspect many of them already are), I think that Hasbro has been looking at Blizzard and the other purveyors of MMORPG for years and drooling over what they perceive as an unbelievable profit well.
I don't think they have the vaguest clue about how hard it is to actually deliver the goods. But then, I just base that on the fact the DDI (supposedly an integral part of 4E!) still hasn't launched - there's not even an anticipated date!
I really do believe that the execs at Hasbro have looked over at Blizzard, et al., seen some of the numbers they're putting up, and basically told WOTC, "Go do that!"
Oh, I completely agree. And after seeing the screen shots from DDI, Character Visualizer, Online Game Table and Gleemax, it indeed seems that they haven't learned anything. And like you said, their current online policy, PR and publishing rate are all textbook examples of how *NOT* to do it. Not to mention the "quality" of the online articles, which is nowhere near the level that Paizo established.
Like you, I also believe that they're struggling to meet Hasbro's unrealistic goals and demands, and eventually will most likely fail to do so.
quote:
That sense of a desperate longing for more lore has been the only reason I've considered subscribing! But then, so much of the crap that they've been putting out in the "free taste" period has been such relentless drivel...
On the other hand, when I do wander back over to the WOTC boards, there seems to be a fair number of people who are gung-ho about everything, however, pathetically bad.
You know what's actually really, really weird? Most of those "gung-ho" people over on EnWorld and WoTC boards actually originally posted very negative and leery comments about those same things they now express to *LOVE* in 4E. I suspect that it is due to their "blind faith" that WoTC would actually listen to their online feedback and react accordingly, but when it didn't happen, they realized that they just *HAD* to love that stuff if they didn't want to skip 4E. Or maybe their DM or the (other) players in their groups announced that the group is going to switch and everyone must adjust their views? I don't know, but it sure is odd to see guys that agreed with me 100% now saying that I'm "wrong" and everything about the game and the online articles is *GREAT* and *FUN* and *BESTEST EVER*. The only consistent attitudes and opinions I've seen are from posters here and on the Paizo boards.
I agree with you that the quality of the online content (Dragon and Dungeon) has dropped dramatically, and I feel that it has something to do with the designers and freelancers being either a bit lost or less enthustiastic with the "exception-based" encounter design and 4E rules in general? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the 4E Adventure Path -- at least based on my judgement of its general plot and the first adventure -- was all about combat action and the writing was very bland and even "bad". Even the maps seem have more in common with the D&D Miniatures than D&D (i.e. a lot of large corridors and large, square rooms). If the second one is as bad, I finally hope that at least some people who used to object the changes in 4E will publicly admit that it's not as good as it used to be.
Also, I find it a bit ridiculous that they're offering low-resolution files only, since you can't print them. Unless I'm completely wrong, all the Dragon and Dungeon articles and modules seem have 72-100 PPI (Pixels Per Inch) resolution, which is OK for website graphics, but should be at least *double* that if you intend to print that stuff. I wonder why they're doing it, since it would be relatively quick and easy to save the files in both resolutions. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2008 : 19:57:30
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RB posted some more answers to questions over at WotC - here's the LINK to the page his comments are on (respecting his wishes to not be quoted).
Some interesting stuff - there were TEN "preview" articles planned for the Realms, but they dropped that plan after the first couple (for whatever reason).
Also, he states that he is hoping there will be one, maybe two, FR articles each month in the DDi, but he can't promise that.
Huh? 
Isn't that about what we've been getting for FREE all along over there? Is the DDi just a way of charging us for the same old material we've always gotten from them?
And once again, the DDi 'promise' is "eventual" and "perhaps"... they aren't really promising ANYTHING at all, except that they will gladly take our money.
I started to make a few comments over there in that thread, but I chose to bite my tongue (and save it for here).
When I am proud of something, I want to flaunt it all over the place, not keep it secret like I was embarrassed by it. WotC's policy of keeping 'hush-hush' about FR right now does not boad well - are the designers truly embarrassed by what they have wrought? Shouldn't they be shouting it from the rooftops, rather then hiding behind Rich Baker? (A man who apparenly has VERY LITTLE to do with FR these days, aside from writing novels for it).
In EVERY earlier edition-change, you couldn't shut them up about all the 'cool' stuff they were doing. Now, after the backlash from the first couple of countdown articles, they have 'gone dark'.
Do they realize that if they are being attacked every time they let something slip, that something MUST be amiss? 
Anyhow, 'Hardcore Gamers' like to hold something in their hands (no jokes, please  ). We LIKED our physical copies of Dungeon and Dragon mags! We want to have those books on our shelves! Do they realize what going 'all-digital' will do to this hobby?
Its sad... VERY sad. 
The game that brought us RPGing - D&D - has finally lost complete touch with what it's fans want and enjoy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2008 19:58:10 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2008 : 20:16:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, 'Hardcore Gamers' like to hold something in their hands (no jokes, please )
(I just can't let this one pass!!!)
So... Hardcore Gamers... now... what kinds of roleplaying are you really into??? And what do you like to hold in your hands??? I figure it must be something solid  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6692 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 01:25:42
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Given the shift in focus from the campaign settings to the core rules, I am not surprised at the lack of fanfare. The release of the FRCG and the other two products that will likely constitute all of FR's presence in 4E bar DDI articles is now akin to a "Book of Nine Swords" or "Exemplars of Evil" release. If it sells in numbers that will be fantastic but I'm sure they consider their real sales to be coming from things like Martial Law and the further core 4E sourcebooks to come.
As I posted previously, 3.5E was the first edition where I bought a fair number of the core add-on books. They are now glorified paper weights given that I don't play any edition and used them for rules for articles. Whilst I'm interested, I'm not sure I'll go down that road again in 4E. I guess it depends whether I'll be writing any more articles. I'll have to see what the FRCG holds before I can make that call.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 02:40:04
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I can think of one place where your talent and all your 3e rulebooks could still be put to good use...
In fact, you've already worked for them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6692 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 04:26:01
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Coincidentally I just made enquiries with my FLGS about the Paizo Pathfinder Golarion hardcover ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 11:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
RB posted some more answers to questions over at WotC - here's the LINK to the page his comments are on (respecting his wishes to not be quoted).
*snip*
Heh. I tried to follow that link, only to get the following response:
"The Wizards of the Coast community website is currently down for extended unplanned maintenance."
I don't get it. I mean, it's clear WoTC/Hasbro don't get it, but I just don't understand how it's possible that they have yet to take the necessary steps that are required to run a business that uses the Web as a revenue generator. Among which are making sure that you have greater than 99% up-time.
BTW, it's been about an hour now since I made the attempt, and it's still down.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*snip*
And once again, the DDi 'promise' is "eventual" and "perhaps"... they aren't really promising ANYTHING at all, except that they will gladly take our money.
That WoTC has yet to announce a month (let alone an exact date), or even a quarter when all the elements of DDi will be up, live, as a stable release out of what they're calling "beta," is frankly disgraceful. It speaks to an utter lack of understanding of how the Web works. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 11:53:46
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I don't know what he means, who are these ''contributors''
but I don't care anymore anyway
expected like 10 big articles per month to replace the missing books, but it's clear where this is going |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 16:55:46
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| Personally, I don't have any more faith in WotC. I'd love to be surprised but I don't expect much in the way of content, nor do I anticipate enjoying the content put forth. I'll take a gander, I'll still run FR games, but I highly doubt I'll use any further material from WotC. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 19:31:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some interesting stuff - there were TEN "preview" articles planned for the Realms, but they dropped that plan after the first couple (for whatever reason).
I just see it as less stuff to be upset about, at this point. Catch my meaning? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Jul 2008 19:34:56 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 20:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I just see it as less stuff to be upset about, at this point. Catch my meaning?
You've got a gift for spotting that silver lining.  |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 21:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I just see it as less stuff to be upset about, at this point. Catch my meaning?
You've got a gift for spotting that silver lining.
Yeah but less stuff may rob us of a few good Rants by Mace |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 23:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Yeah but less stuff may rob us of a few good Rants by Mace
Lol. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 00:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I just see it as less stuff to be upset about, at this point. Catch my meaning?
You've got a gift for spotting that silver lining.
I do try to be optimistic. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 17:33:01
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| Btw, yesterday Rich posted some comments about the Harper changes and some changes to Sehanine today. Thought some people might be interested. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 18:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Btw, yesterday Rich posted some comments about the Harper changes and some changes to Sehanine today. Thought some people might be interested.
Thanks for the heads-up! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 01:21:00
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... Gruumsh was always Talos in disguise? 
I can't find words anymore to describe my disappontment over the 4E FR... and I'm pretty sure that they won't even gove plausible reasons for Moradin and several other Greater Deities never existing per se -- some of them even being heads of racial pantheons! Uh, maybe someone can explain to me who *really* created dwarves and halflings and why? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 07:54:27
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The best part is his expectation that now the fans are going to call the designers morons. I wonder where he gets this impression from ...?
Selune is one of the oldest deities of the world, being directly created by Ao together with her sister Shar as opposite parts of the balance. Togehter they created Toril (Chauntea), and by Selune's granting Chauntea's wish for light the great war between the two sister started which gave birth to many other goods (Talos!). Sehanine (and Gruumsh, I presume) are interloper deities from another universe. I does not seem very likely they are aspects of the Torilian deities. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 12:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Btw, yesterday Rich posted some comments about the Harper changes and some changes to Sehanine today. Thought some people might be interested.
Link? |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 15:31:46
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| Scroll in this scroll until you find the four answers of Rich Baker. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 08:13:29
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| Thank you! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 09:07:17
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| The key remark to bear in mind with all this god stuff is 'If you take it as a desired goal to present a smaller, tighter-focused pantheon'. All the other detail is application of this non-Realms-derived decision, making the most perhaps of a bad (from the point of view of the Realms) job. |
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Fire Wraith
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 12:55:52
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Cross-posted from the WotC FR boards, regarding this:
I see the same problem.
It all hinges on accepting their premise, that these changes had to happen - that they were absolutely, vitally necessary. I still don't, either in specific or in aggregate terms. But, even with that aside, I still think they are going about it the wrong way. To explain:
Let's say you're a TV producer/writer. You've taken over a show that focuses on a group of superheroes - lots of them. In fact, you've come down to the conclusion that there's just too many of them, for the amount of time you have in a show. So, what do you do? Do you:
1. Kill off all those determined to be excess, knowing that even some of the supporting characters have fans, and the deaths will potentially upset them?
2. Arbitrarily announce that certain separate characters are now the same person, and have been so all along - you just never noticed it, despite the fact that this causes gaping inconsistencies in many of the past episodes? It's one thing for Clark Kent to be Superman - it's another if we start declaring that Jimmy Olson was really Batman. Or, do you...
3. Consider that they're all still around, but refocus the story on a smaller group of characters, leaving the others still 'out there' - just off screen, and possibly occasionally referenced, or brought in for a bit part?
For the FR design team, it was apparently all of the above. "There are too many Gods in the Realms, and it's too much for new players to learn." So, let's kill off a bunch of gods, announce that a bunch more were really all the same person (whether it makes any sense or not), and diminish the rest into 'Exarchs' - not gods in name, but gods in practice.
I get the Exarchs idea. It's not ideal, really, but hey, if I'm (say) a Malar fan, having him get a different title, and being in a different section of the book, or even relegated to another supplement, is fine. After all, a lot of the Gods had no more than a name listing in the 3e FRCS, and we had to wait until Faiths and Pantheons for more. But why all the killings and forced-mergers?
Was it really that hard to just say, "okay, let's pick 2-3 gods for each alignment, and call that the Core Pantheon." Then, make everyone else an Exarch, or a 'lesser god', or whatever you want to call it, that gets described in later supplements. Demi-human pantheons? Why not just make them all exarchs of the main God? Drow would've been a little tricky, but ultimately, Lolth does like chaos, and could easily have kept most of them around just to keep things lively (after all, she's clearly stronger in this version). Eilistraee wouldn't work, but hey, she can always fall under the umbrella of Corellon if need be... and I know that would've gone over much better with the fans of hers than killing her off is.
It just seems lately, that every time I take a look at what they're doing in the 4E Realms, there's a better parallel in Pathfinder/Golarion... where, for instance, there are 20 core gods (21 if you count the one that died prior to the campaign start). Those are the ones that appear in the gazetteer, and the Players' Guides provided with the modules. However, the designers have also stated that those are nowhere near all the gods in the world - merely the most basic, worldwide ones.
This, then, is the part where I take issue with the basic premise of the designers. The problem was not the volume of material - it was merely an issue of how it was presented. To use Warcraft as an example, there's a ton of backstory to the world that WoW is set in, and multiple novels have been written chronicling the events of the first 3 games and expansions, as well as other events that took place before and between them. Do you need to know any of this to play WoW? Nope. Do you even need to know this if you want to roleplay, full-immersion style, in WoW? Again, no. You are presented with the story in bits and pieces, focusing first and foremost on everything that is important to your character. This is exactly the way that the Forgotten Realms server that I help run operates - a heavy roleplaying environment that tries to adhere as much to the base canon as possible (albeit the pre-1372 canon, as we began the campaign from the 3e start date). No one is expected or required to know anything about the Realms at the start, though it's a bonus if they do.
I still have yet to have anyone complain about having to know too much FR lore to start playing there. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 13:46:16
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I could have accepted the Exarchs idea, if it had been that way from the start. What I can't accept is that I have an entire sourcebook (Powers & Pantheons) full of deities that are now either removed, merged, or no longer actual deities. I hate retcons, especially arbitrary ones.
Had I been on the design team, I simply would have gone back to the deities listed in the Old Grey Box, and noted that there are others, but these are the main ones. That's a simple solution that accomplishes the same goal. Best of all, it avoids having gods act in illogical ways, be nerfed, or be merged.
In fact, I have to wonder why all the effort to make changes among the deities when they could have done something so simple. I could take the engine out of my car when changing the oil, but it's way more work than is necessary. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Fire Wraith
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 14:41:57
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| Engines are horribly complex though. You can't expect a new car owner to understand how the engine works. Better to just yank it out, and stick in a trained monkey to run along and push the car. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 23:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
Engines are horribly complex though. You can't expect a new car owner to understand how the engine works. Better to just yank it out, and stick in a trained monkey to run along and push the car.
Dont tell that to the german car manufacturers. They like to produce horribly complex cars with too many Gimmicks now and were surprised around this year that the climate change really does come ... and that the oil price is still rising instead of going down. So now they are scrambling to find new Gimmicks to build fuel conserving cars, which they should have focused on five years ago ... instead of adding an air conditioning which can make one side of the car a different climate from the other (and waste loads of fuel that way).
quote:
Originally posted by Fire Wraith
3. Consider that they're all still around, but refocus the story on a smaller group of characters, leaving the others still 'out there' - just off screen, and possibly occasionally referenced, or brought in for a bit part?
This would have been the really simple solution to the "problem" of too powerful gods and individuals. You could simply declare the chosen as busy while trying to hunt down Shar and her shadow web or whatever else and have them disappear from the book with NPC stats and simply state them only in name every now and then. The ton of gods really isnt a problem IMO because no one is forced to use all of them, having them is just a bonus, because it gives loads of choice. Having a pantheon for every different race is a must have IMO and not an optional thing, because they represent different cultures. Forcing non-humans to pray to the same gods (and I wont call them anything else) is just ridiculous, because different races / cultures would worship them differently. All this reminds me of McDonalds and their philosophy of everyone will like the Burgers the way we invented them, which is just ignorant of different cultures in different countries. Having different cultures is good! Killing off different cultures from your own is bad!
Btw I figured out why Eilistraee had to die. Her followers are called "the chosen of Eilistraee" (at least in "Daughter of the Drow") and all chosen had to die. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 01:27:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
... Gruumsh was always Talos in disguise?
As I said in another post, the only reason Talos was seen as "disposable" was because WotC has more or less decided to focus on Shar above all other evil gods.
quote:
I can't find words anymore to describe my disappontment over the 4E FR... and I'm pretty sure that they won't even gove plausible reasons for Moradin and several other Greater Deities never existing per se -- some of them even being heads of racial pantheons! Uh, maybe someone can explain to me who *really* created dwarves and halflings and why?
Actually, it's likely that Moradin will stick around, as Rich has used him in some 4E examples (ie. Clangeddin as an exarch of Moradin). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 03:26:25
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| IIRC, Rich (or someone) said awhile ago the Moradin was getting merged into Gond. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 06:08:32
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| But which one dominates, or in other words: which of both will survive? Will the church of Gond become the church of Moradin or vice versa? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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4e FR
