| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 06:50:07
|
| Wow, the The one and only "Ask the Realms authors/designers thread" 3 is now officially closed. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
 |
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 09:08:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
As I said in another post, the only reason Talos was seen as "disposable" was because WotC has more or less decided to focus on Shar above all other evil gods.
Actually, it's likely that Moradin will stick around, as Rich has used him in some 4E examples (ie. Clangeddin as an exarch of Moradin).
And Yondalla? Amd which of the deities (according to 4E FR retcon) created those races that now do not have a real pantheon at all? Corellon has been fooled all this time that he was actually surrounded by elven deities... and turns out that his fellow elven deities always were just "aspects" of human/orc/dwarven gods? And whatever will happen/has happened to all those worshippers of Clanggedin, Talos, and elven deities? A cleric of Talos now just accepts that "Alright, my god never existed, and now I'm worshipping an orc deity..."? Does absorbing a Greater Deity aspect (Talos) make Gruumsh an "uberdeity"?
You see, this just doesn't make sense... it changes (actually retcons) so much of the previous Realmslore, that it is simply mind-boggling in scope. Was this change really needed? Even I could have come up with other, logical explanations to how this downsizing of the Pantheon might have happened without resorting to such cheap cop-outs.
I'm sorry... I shouldn't be ranting at you, because I know that you are not exactly a fan of these changes, so don't take this personally -- I'm disappointed and angry at the design team, not you.  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 09:18:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Wow, the The one and only "Ask the Realms authors/designers thread" 3 is now officially closed.
And 'Thread 4' is now open. They obviously closed it down due to its massive size... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 14:00:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And 'Thread 4' is now open. They obviously closed it down due to its massive size...
IMO WotC might get a massively selling book if they would write down all the TRUE REASONS behind all the changes they made in 4e and the campaigns. And I really mean the true reasons and not something giddy like "we felt it would be better this way". |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 17:17:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IIRC, Rich (or someone) said awhile ago the Moradin was getting merged into Gond.
I didn't read that. If he did say that, did he mention which god was going to come out on top? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Aug 2008 17:17:43 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 17:20:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I'm sorry... I shouldn't be ranting at you, because I know that you are not exactly a fan of these changes, so don't take this personally -- I'm disappointed and angry at the design team, not you.
I know. Just to be clear, I'm not saying I like these changes or that I plan to implement them in my Realms. However, I believe in being rational and being fair, even with regards to stuff I don't like. If I can make the information floating around here more accurate, I will endeavor to do so, in the interest of fairness and respect for the truth. Inaccurate rumors don't help anyone. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 11:22:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Btw I figured out why Eilistraee had to die. Her followers are called "the chosen of Eilistraee" (at least in "Daughter of the Drow") and all chosen had to die. 
Eilistraee dead? She was the one godess that represent the 'points of light' idea if there ever was one. Even before 4E came around.
But at least 4E is consistent in making little sense, unless of course you turn your eyes blind to those things that were before the 15th DR century.
By the way, did they invent a new time reckoning method for the 4th Edition - like before Mystra (BM), after Mystra (AM)? With so many changes in the cultural life, also in the Dales Region it seems only likely to of somesuch new thing to emerge.
But than again - as such a change could make sense and be explained rather easily - it's probably not such a good idea. And it might disconnect the 'long-time-FR-fans' from the setting![/sarcasm] |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 12:13:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Btw I figured out why Eilistraee had to die. Her followers are called "the chosen of Eilistraee" (at least in "Daughter of the Drow") and all chosen had to die.
Eilistraee dead? She was the one godess that represent the 'points of light' idea if there ever was one. Even before 4E came around.
But at least 4E is consistent in making little sense, unless of course you turn your eyes blind to those things that were before the 15th DR century.
By the way, did they invent a new time reckoning method for the 4th Edition - like before Mystra (BM), after Mystra (AM)? With so many changes in the cultural life, also in the Dales Region it seems only likely to of somesuch new thing to emerge.
But than again - as such a change could make sense and be explained rather easily - it's probably not such a good idea. And it might disconnect the 'long-time-FR-fans' from the setting![/sarcasm]
Seems logical. At least for mages and magic users. Most people would probably just continue with what they know. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 13:30:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
By the way, did they invent a new time reckoning method for the 4th Edition - like before Mystra (BM), after Mystra (AM)?
I think BM is the more appropriate acronym for what's happened to the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 14:03:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
before Mystra (BM), after Mystra (AM)
Did you notice that "before" and "after" Mystra leaves out the period where Mystra existed? Adding a Period of "Mystra" would probably make all non-Mystra Priests furious. So I think it should be something like - pre Spellplague >>>
- Spellplague >>>
- after Spellplague,
but I would think they would simply invent a "new calendar" with a different reckoning and year 0 after Spellplague is year 0. New calendar is much easier than having to add a "reference event" every time.  |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
|
|
|
arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 16:41:41
|
AFAIK the two most popular D&D settings are World of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that each started with the work of one person with a dream; Gary Gygax and Ed Greenwood.
IMO 4e Forgotten Realms is a world designed by committee to (I strongly suspect), precise specifications. Is it any wonder that many on Candlekeep are not happy with it?
|
|
|
|
Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2008 : 11:15:45
|
| No. |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 16:09:24
|
Alright, everyone, I'm not sure if this is the proper thread, but here's my review of 4E FRCG, based on reading through a friend's copy (he was promptly kicked out of his group for his sacrilege!  ).
Some comments based on what I remember:
- Loudwater... now, this chapter *really* sets new standards for low-quality in a published FR product. Frankly, I was stunned at how bad it was... the town map was the *worst* since, like, forever -- it was a square 50 x 50 squares (about) box filled with 20+ buildings. I mean, uh, where do those 9000 people live? Mighty high buildings, I would say! The NPCs... those two we saw in the excerpt were the *best* of the bunch -- 'Brother Griffon' and the rest were really that bad. I'm convinced that the map of Loudwater is to appear in 'Storm of Zehir', and that is probably why it is "primitive" and square-shaped, hey? It may work as a miniature map, but I haven't seen any DM worth his salt using such maps since the original CRPG 'Pool of Radiance' came out. If I had bought this book, I would have felt *insulted* by this map. All in all, I think the book would have been a *LOT* better as a whole without the first chapter.
- The divine symbols of some deities have "evolved", and certainly not for the better. Corellon's symbol is now a "starburst", but can you guess how Lolth's symbol looks like? A slightly different starburst, naturally! Gruumsh's symbol is an odd-looking "triangle" of bones, and Bane's mighty fish has transformed into a three-pronged talon-like appendice! IIRC this was not even explained anywhere, so it's probably a retcon? And, the symbols for the other deities are not even mentioned *at all*, so good luck without your 2E/3E accessories! Or perhaps only the Greater Deities have symbols, now? I also found it odd that deities have only a single "sphere" of control now, because in some cases it results in odd choices for the sphere (as already mentioned here and the WoTC boards) -- was the idea of deities holding multiple portfolios *really* that complex for DMs and players to grasp?
- The Zhentarim also have changed their symbol -- they now wear a brown-colored fanged skull on a burst of dark-brown rays (on yellow field) as their symbol. If it is meant to resemble Cyric's own symbol, the colors seem like an odd choice...
- Primordials. Ubtao "the Deceiver"? Elder Gods, led by Ouroboros the World-Serpent? And how come the Elemental Lords have had established churches and commanded worship on Toril, if they have always been "just" Primordials confined to Abeir? Or how did Kezef escape from Abeir to hound Mask in the events of the Cyrinishad debacle? A lot of this stuff just seems to be quick ideas they threw around in meetings, without researching the established Realmslore properly, in effect creation contradictions and inconsistencies you could fly a Halruaan Skyship through. Oh, I forgot about their "Secret Timeline"... maybe it holds answers to everything? Yeah...
- Eladrin. I don't think I saw a single mention of elven subraces, while the Eladrin were mentioned here and there -- I wonder if the elven subraces have been cut altogether from 4E FR?
- The glossary (written by Ed) was nice, and there were words and terms you could steal to enrich any FR campaign.
- Most of the 'Overview'-chapter I really flipped through, and my overall feeling was that there was a lot of "meh!"-stuff and bad ideas. Very little info on Baldur's Gate. Oh, the *did* include the City of Sharn from Eberron (after a fashion) in the form of Skyclave, capital of High Imaskar! And if everyone didn't think 'Rose Keep' was enough, there is the 'Castle of the Rose' near Skyclave...
- Returned Abeir. Along with Waterdeep, this was the best part in the book, although I may not agree with the whole concept of Abeir/Toril -divide and the nature of the changes. You can really tell that both Waterdeep and Abeir have been written by Ed, and there are a lot of stuff that could be imported into Golarion, for example.
Summa summarum: My overall impression was that I'm not going to buy this book, because a lot of the changes were explained so vaguely that they contradict published Realmslore, which would require a lot of extra work for me to make it all internally consistent again (George, Eric and Steven -- your efforts will be needed again! ;). New players and DMs may find it more appealing, but the level of details and especially the *quality* of most of the content I found sorely lacking.
My unofficial rating for this book:    |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 17:16:28
|
| So, is it true: Neverwinter is destroyed? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 17:17:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
So, is it true: Neverwinter is destroyed?
For the death of me, I can't recall... sorry!  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 19:51:36
|
Yes it is...
Probably something to do with the Storm of Zehir.
Anyway, for the second time in two days, RB has shown rather obvious 'displeasure' at something in the FRCG. I'm starting to think that some people aren't entirely happy that the 'Gravy Train' is now in jeopardy.
The comment was in regards to the usage of the word 'Eladrin' throughout the book - I can't quote him but because he requested we don't, but he did approach it from the "I would have done things differently" perspective.
Intersting...
I like Rich Baker, and I wish him well - His honesty is quite refreshing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 20 Aug 2008 19:52:00 |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 20:30:38
|
So they nuked Neverwinter but preserved Baldur's Gate, even made it bigger ... 
On the other hand, they also nuked Halruaa but preserved Shade, so nothing new here.  |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 20:46:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes it is...
Probably something to do with the Storm of Zehir.
Anyway, for the second time in two days, RB has shown rather obvious 'displeasure' at something in the FRCG. I'm starting to think that some people aren't entirely happy that the 'Gravy Train' is now in jeopardy.
The comment was in regards to the usage of the word 'Eladrin' throughout the book - I can't quote him but because he requested we don't, but he did approach it from the "I would have done things differently" perspective.
Intersting...
I like Rich Baker, and I wish him well - His honesty is quite refreshing.
Yes, I respect RB as a designer and author a lot, and I've read between the lines that he's not entirely happy with all of the changes. However, being a true gentleman towards the work of his colleagues, he does not wish to voice his personal opinions. And he's been very straight-forward, patient and honest with the fans (as much as he only could, in his position), volunteering for a job that not many would have done. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 20:48:48
|
Another "funny" thing I remembered... Wheloon is now officially a 'Royal Prison City' in Cormyr. They walled in everyone, as it turned out that most of the citizens were... *gasp* ... worshippers of Shar! 
|
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 20:53:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Another "funny" thing I remembered... Wheloon is now officially a 'Royal Prison City' in Cormyr. They walled in everyone, as it turned out that most of the citizens were... *gasp* ... worshippers of Shar!
Anyone else want to create a rogue named Snake Pliskin? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 21:27:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Another "funny" thing I remembered... Wheloon is now officially a 'Royal Prison City' in Cormyr. They walled in everyone, as it turned out that most of the citizens were... *gasp* ... worshippers of Shar!
Anyone else want to create a rogue named Snake Pliskin?
A one-eyed rogue who likes to blow up things, right? Sounds like a worshipper of Gruumsh... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
|
|
Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
767 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 07:24:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes it is...
Probably something to do with the Storm of Zehir.
Talk about killing a goose that lays golden eggs. That means there probably never will be a Neverwinter Nights 3, whoever might have been the developer that time round.
Man, I'm gonna miss that pompous windbag Reverend Judge Oleff Uskar, the devious Lord Nasher Alagondar, and that insidious wench Ophala Cheldarstorn. Not to mention my favourite seamstress, Amundra Nelaerdra. And I thought if I don't touch $E, it won't touch me. Seems like I'm going to have to boycott Storm of Zehir too. To use the vernacular: That sucks! |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
|
|
|
|
Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 07:54:42
|
The part regarding Elminster in FRCS was intriguing:
quote:
Elminster: Hears voices in his head that he fears magic will release, due to ravages from the Spellplague. He no longer practices the Art, and has isolated himself, where others believe he is an insane hermit. He is a threat to no one as long as he does not cast magic. The consequences of this would be devastating.
I liked the follow-up:
quote:
The Simbul: Faked her death and now lives in the Dalelands, in disguise, presumably caring and watching over Elminster.
Still, this opens many new questions and possibilities. What are these voices? Why are they so destructive? Why would magic release them? What is so special in Elminster that he is the only magic-user who cannot use magic? Is there any way to cure/heal this problem? If so, what is it? If an ascent (mortal becoming a god) happens, and the mortal becomes kind of 'new Mystra', will this help? (In 3.5, most gods were level 40... El was 35, last I saw his stats...
Fighter 1
Rogue 2
Cleric of Mystra 3
Wizard 24
Archmage 5 )
Thoughts?
|
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
Edited by - Menelvagor on 21 Aug 2008 07:55:53 |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 08:39:14
|
| The designers made it clear that there will not be a new deity of magic. Of course, Elminster would be a natural choice, but since the beings standing above AO have decided ... |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 10:30:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
[Not to mention my favourite seamstress, Amundra Nelaerdra.
And a very special seamstress she is, indeed. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 11:50:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
In 3.5, most gods were level 40... El was 35, last I saw his stats...
Fighter 1
Rogue 2
Cleric of Mystra 3
Wizard 24
Archmage 5 )
Thoughts?
For me a god is more than a high number of class levels, so no matter if youre level 100 you are not "as good as a god" as long there are zero people believing in your power.
As for some chosen being alive still I cant really understand why. They were "bound to the weave" and should have suffered a really bad fate when it "disbanded" ... uncontrolled Spellfire discharges hurt (at they did for Shandril). If its true that Elminster and the Simbul are still alive that feels like someone is trying to lessen the gap between the old and new Realms by saying "your old favorite guy / gal" is still there. For me that feels like someone is backpedalling and admitting an error of judgement, but we cant say if such a thing is true or the whole thing had been planned like this from the beginning. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 14:15:56
|
What I find interesting was that it was once asked why Chronomancy wasn't used in the Realms. The 'official' answer (I can't remember how official) was that El was the sheriff of the timeline.
Which, of course means that there's an out if things REALLY don't go well. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 18:04:39
|
Well then, I've laid my eyes upon the interior of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, and I thought I'd share my opinion about it with you. Beware though, I'm far from politically correct.
I am disgusted. The Forgotten Realms, in its current "incarnation"(4th edition), truly deserves to become forgotten for all time. I spit upon it.
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
4e FR
