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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2008 : 16:24:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Add in that it takes place in 1379 DR (placing it at the tail-end of 3e), and it becomes an easy choice for me. 
When I opened it up at the store it had a 1400+ date on the first page.... so some parts of it do not take place in 1379. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 16:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by imis999
I really am disgusted with the direction of the new Realms including this cutting back on the new material I was actually interested in. I don't know any other way to protest than to not buy the new products. My thought is should I not purchase the new book "Swordmage"? I have bought every book put out for FR for more than a decade, and this would be the first book I did not buy. Thoughts?
It's not the place for anyone here to tell YOU what you should or should not purchase.
However, if you don't want to put any more money into the pockets of WotC regarding the Realms but still want to purchase Realms products (for whatever reason), consider buying said products second-hand. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 May 2008 16:35:16 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 16:37:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Add in that it takes place in 1379 DR (placing it at the tail-end of 3e), and it becomes an easy choice for me.
When I opened it up at the store it had a 1400+ date on the first page.... so some parts of it do not take place in 1379.
It's news to me that any part of the book takes place in 1379--I could have sworn it was entirely a post-Spellplague book. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 16:51:19
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I stand corrected - I got my information from This Thread.
I think, because Unclean was also being discussed, I got confused (or I simply mis-read the OP).
Plus, the few people I know have read it said it was good, and most of the detractors haven't even read it, soooo... 
Either way, I like the sound of that class, and I'd like to see it 'in action'. The very first character I ever played was a Warrior-Wizard in T&T (NOT D&D!), and most of my early PCs were Clerics, so I have always had a fondness for fighters that can toss a few spells around. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 May 2008 18:29:04 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 20:53:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Add in that it takes place in 1379 DR (placing it at the tail-end of 3e), and it becomes an easy choice for me.
When I opened it up at the store it had a 1400+ date on the first page.... so some parts of it do not take place in 1379.
It's news to me that any part of the book takes place in 1379--I could have sworn it was entirely a post-Spellplague book.
Indeed. I rechecked today when I went back to Barnes for my weekly book/magazine collecting. The first three chapters all are dated for 1400+. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 21:36:07
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I am in no way a fan of what is going to happen to the Forgotten Realms in 4th Edition...but I guess I don't hate the idea either. I guess I could say that I hate the loss of the Forgotten Realms and am curious about this new incarnation... 
What I'm wondering is this: what about all the Mom and Pop retail stores where these products have been sold for decades now? I'm kinda pissed actually. I have a friend who relies on book sales from WotC for his income...now, they are going to cut into his bottom line because they just aren't going to be selling ANYTHING in his store really. Three books a year??? That is nothing for him.
Worse, for me, is that my wife and I had SERIOUS plans for starting our own business here in Missoula Montana...now I have to second guess that because I don't know what impact it is going to have.
So...
We have the loss of numerous publications that can be bought at Ye Ol' Game Store...what happens to the retailer now? Digital Age is all good I guess...but man, Bob doesn't even realize what is about to happen to him!   |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 19 May 2008 23:49:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 22:06:21
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The funny thing is, the bookstores don't sell the minis, at least not around here, only the LGS does. If they go under, where will WotC be pushing them? At the Toy stores?
And since the minis are more closely tied to the mechanics now, that makes it even more critical.
I'm big on miniatures, and I'm wondering, if all the local game stores go under, where will be able to get them? Through the Internet? I prefer to look at things in-person before I buy, so I don't think that'll work.
Not that I like the D&D minis....
EDIT:
Well, they actually went and did it - the FR boards are gone over at WotC. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2008 14:18:43 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 16:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT:
Well, they actually went and did it - the FR boards are gone over at WotC.
Not quite. As I said before, there is one FR forum--all the old boards were "smooshed" into one. Ebberon has been reduced to just one forum as well.
I know it sucks, but that's not quite the same thing as the FR boards being gone. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 May 2008 16:56:25 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 17:51:03
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| The merging of the boards seems to be a natural step, since WotC want to go in the generalized direction. I just hope they don't add insult to injury by sticking to the Ebberron logo on those sourcebooks when the Realms lost its. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Raxtin
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2008 : 18:13:09
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I have read that there will be a limited amount of printed FR material released after 4E goes live. I'm just wondering, has WOTC announced yet that for a $14.95/month subscription fee "DM's and Players alike!" will be able to "Chat with other gamers", "gain access to monthly new lore", "special WOTC digital release only material", "updated maps", and a "meet girls who play DnD" service?
These guys are ruining the most extensive/successful campaign setting ever created and it's really sad. |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2008 : 19:44:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The very first character I ever played was a Warrior-Wizard in T&T
Take That You Fiend!
Is T&T still published? Are they on 4th edition yet? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2008 : 20:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Raxtin
and a "meet girls who play DnD" service?
That would certainly get them some money! It'd be a horrible guy to girl ratio, though...
Sadly, though, I've never encountered IRL a girl gamer that I would want to date. Of the small handful I've met, most were already taken, anyway. The one single girl gamer I met IRL was just plain creepy.
One of the webcomics I read has been hosting ads for a website that appears to be a dating site for otaku. I don't know whether to laugh or cry about that!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2008 : 06:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Raxtin
and a "meet girls who play DnD" service?
so..... how do you know it is really a girl on the other end of the chat service? |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2008 : 07:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
quote:
Originally posted by Raxtin
and a "meet girls who play DnD" service?
so..... how do you know it is really a girl on the other end of the chat service?
Of course it is! And she told me she has 18 Charisma, too! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2008 : 21:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I am in no way a fan of what is going to happen to the Forgotten Realms in 4th Edition...but I guess I don't hate the idea either. I guess I could say that I hate the loss of the Forgotten Realms and am curious about this new incarnation...
I have to say it is a relief to be on these boards again. I am pretty resilient and got flamed pretty well on the WOTC boards for my opinions, but I have to admit I like the strife over there.
It is nice to come here and see that more fans feel the same way I do, and are not falling in line with the 4e fanboys.
Anyway I am going to give the new realms a chance. I probably have read my last FR novel with ORC KING. I doubt I will follow suit, in following all the books again.
At the same time, depending how my campaign goes with Anauroch, I might just forget the spellplague altogether, and run 3.5 realms with my own timeline.
3 FR books means that WOTC does not have to worry about losing too much money if they mess up.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 01:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I have to say it is a relief to be on these boards again.
And it's a relief to have you back Mournblade. You've been away far too long. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 21:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
3 FR books means that WOTC does not have to worry about losing too much money if they mess up.
Yea, but it's still money I rather spend on tobacco, coffee, books, and ... uh ... rent  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 22:24:00
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Sorry... another 'server error' induced DP.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2008 22:31:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 22:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
3 FR books means that WOTC does not have to worry about losing too much money if they mess up.
Planning for failure isn't a very good business-model, and not very faith-inducing to fans.
They do plan on providing us with "great" <cough> lore in the DDi, but that just rubs me wrong in so many ways. I feel like we have a gun to our heads, or FR is being 'held hostage' - "If you want to see FR live, you'll fork over the money".
Considering that they have already said that the Gaming Table and FR-pedia will be available sometime down the road, it gives me even greater pause.
I really don't think the Gaming table will ever see the light of day - by holding back to see if its worth developing in the first place, they are insuring a low participation-count in the DDi at the onset, which will skew their decision to ever bother releasing it.
Once again, planning for failure.
I mean really, who's going to pay for that mess they are offering now? By saving the "best for later", they are dooming it from the out-set. All of their promises will remain vaporware, while they feed us yet more "headless Zhents".
Anyone else who is computer-savy here, like Wooly, think they their Internet enterprises have any chance of succeeding? Whats everyone think?
Remember, we were also promised an online version of both Dungeon and Dragon that was just as good as the originals... and that drove much of the fanbase to Paizo. Now they want to try and copy some of Paizo's business model, but I really don't think they 'get it'... at all. 
It almost appears as if they are desperate to get our money, and simply no longer know how.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2008 22:36:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2008 : 23:06:07
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Honestly, I don't think they're planning for failure. I think they are just under some intense pressure from above (as in, Hasbro) to increase the profit. It's entirely likely that the whole change from D&D to D&D Extreme, with its heavy emphasis on MMO features, is also something being driven from above, trying to cash in on the WoW market. It's not a logical progression of the game, and the whole "OMFG, it's so kewl!" and "Everything before this sucked!" seems a desparate ploy for attention -- especially when you factor in the previously stated fact that playtesters were forbidden from badmouthing 4E.
The 3 books per setting idea also goes along with this, actually. If they are being driven from above to up the bottom line, then they can't follow the old business models. Doing the setting a year thing gets the most fans, because it brings back everything. Depending on how each setting sells, that dictates how much they sink into it in the form of online content -- which is a very low-cost distribution method for them. If not many people buy Dragginglance, but a lot of people buy FR, then the majority of the online stuff will be FR.
As much as I hate to admit it, even the Sellplague could be something that's being driven from above. While we (myself included) have been eager to point fingers at particular designers, it could be that the Realms is just another victim of Hasbro's demands. I'll certainly never agree that nuking the setting and moving it forward 100 years was the best way to give it a new-fan-friendly reset, but it could be that it was the only way the designers could redo things and keep the corporate masters happy. That would also explain why Ed was overruled when he opposed the original idea... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 May 2008 23:09:46 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 00:17:39
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Even if presure is from above to generate more profit, the way WotC is going about it appears to be flawed.
Being told to make more money is one thing.
Deciding how to make more money is another thing.
If Hasbro just said make more money it is not their fault that WotC appears to be failing in traget dates or business plan.
Now if Hasbro directed WotC down this path, telling them to use online as much as posible, that you only have so much money to spend to get it ready and get it ready within 2 years, then it clearly could be Hasbro driving design team actions as long as the other IMO WotC failures.
All in all we do not know how much has been directed from above and how much was WotC in house decsions. As far as it goes we do not know Hasbro told WotC to earn more profit.
What we know is that the decsion was made and WotC announced it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 00:49:27
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| True, true. But it occurs to me that until we know why such decisions were made, then it may not be appropriate for us to be complaining about particular designers. It may not have been them... I'm not saying this whole mess was due to Hasbro pressure, but it's a possibility most of us seem to have not considered. Until someone steps up and gives all the reasons why the decision was reached, we won't know. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 01:47:51
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From the debacle when Dark Heresy was released, I'm not surprised that WoTC is looking to minimize the number of sourcebook releases. For those not aware of the history here, Dark Heresy sold out within 1.5 hours of being released. The entire print run was bought up. Shortly afterwards, GamesWorkshop announced that they'd be discontinuing the Dark Heresy product line to focus on producing novels. As was pointed out, producing a novel has a lot higher profit:cost ratio, and so to maximize profit it makes sense to not produce products with lower profit margins.
Wizards of the Coast appears to be following a similar pattern. Release 3 main sourcebooks for each setting to placate the fans and provide context for the DDI subscription based digital publications (money maker), with its guaranteed monthly income per person signed up and extremely low production costs. Then focus on the other real money maker, novel sales.
They thus, maximize their proft:cost ratio, and all the Hasbro shareholders are happy. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 04:04:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Honestly, I don't think they're planning for failure. I think they are just under some intense pressure from above (as in, Hasbro) to increase the profit <snip>
Rich came very close to admitting something along those lines when I 'pushed' him a bit to far one day - he claimed that "We should only know the battles he has fought for the Realms".
Who was he fighting? Obviously someone higher up the food chain, otherwise what they wanted shouldn't have mattered.
What next? "Tickle me Elminster"? "Drizzt Patch Kids?" They are treating D&D like a Toy - just hype this year's model - don't worry if its any good - and start thinking about what new piece of stupidity to push next X-mas season. Its all about pushing product out the door and keeping their 'numbers up', which simply doesn't work with RPGs.
Its sad - we counted on WotC to save D&D back in 2000, and now we are watching the company they sold out to destroy it. I just can't see a large corporation ever giving an RPG setting the 'care and nurturing' that a smaller company can.
Maybe thats why the alleged 'dumbing down' is taking place - it IS becoming a Toy, much along the lines of Heroscape. They no longer want RPG fans - they want kids who will lose interest anyway in a couple of weeks, and just buy whatever their hyping next year.
We don't stand a chance against thinking like that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 May 2008 16:27:35 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 07:36:50
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| Back in the 80s Avalon Hill crashed RuneQuest into the ground... and RuneQuest is with Mongoose now, going strong (I think), while Avalon Hill belongs to... Hasbro and produces, among classics, Axis & Allies minis... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2008 : 17:01:46
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RPGs are a square peg, and the parent company appears to be trying to force it into their 'round hole'. In order to keep the amount of units sold compared to profit in line with their other endeavors, they have stripped all the flavor (RP) out of the game.
Big companies cannot do what a smaller one can - the designers need to enjoy what they are doing, not work under pressure of deadlines and profit demands.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I hate to admit it, even the Sellplague could be something that's being driven from above. While we (myself included) have been eager to point fingers at particular designers, it could be that the Realms is just another victim of Hasbro's demands.
I have been thiunking about this long and hard since yesterday, and my opinions have once again shifted. This conversation got "the ol' wheels turning", so to speak.
Rich claimed he "fought the good fight" to save the Realms. Obviously, some muckity-muck made some demands about their numbers, and drastic measures were needed to 'save' the Realms from the chopping block.
The question is... WHO exactly did they 'save' the Realms for?
The fans they alienated by changing everything, adding in ill-thought out concepts, and moving the timeline forward? I don't think so.
The 'new fans' they claim they are trying to attract? How do you 'save' something for a group of people who are unaware of it?
Once again, the logic doesn't pan out. So who stands to 'win' by them getting rid of their old, disgruntled fans and attracting new ones?
Perhaps the very people who have 'income' related to the setting/game? If the Realms are being saved for anyone, it is the people who are desperately trying to hold onto their jobs. I know that sounds rude, but I've thought it through, and thats the only group of people that stand to benefit by the changes... other then the great unknown - the 'new fans' that will suddenly flock to the setting now that all the oldtimers (and their feeling of entitlement) are gone.
Even the pretense that they are trying to remove that "feeling of Entitlement" is proven false - the novels, I feel, added a great deal to that feeling, perhaps even moreso then the sourcebooks.
Do they plan on 'getting rid of' all those novels? NO... instead, they are re-issuing many of them as 'collectors editions' with spiffy new covers. So when these new players sit down to a 4e FR table to play a game set in the north, will the DM still ask the new player "have you read all 18(?) Drizzt novels? Because you are going to need to..."
But wait! We were supposed to get rid of that feeling that we need to know so much... if that is so, why is Drizzt still alive, and why are the novels still being published?
After looking over all the evidence again, I see this 4e as nothing more then a desperate attempt by a select group to hold onto their positions of power - positions that allow them to hand out writing assignments to themselves, so that they get to proudly proclaim that they are 'best selling authors'.
If Hasbro truly did threaten to put an end to the Forgotten Realms line, who would it have REALLY hurt? Most of us are sticking with what we have anyway, so in essence, it has ended for us. If anything, the setting coming to an official end would have freed many of us to do our own thing (which we plan to anyway), without worrying about going against new lore. I think it would have been better for us if the setting was 'shelved'.
And the new fans? What do they know? Right now they are just 'projections on a pie-chart' - no one really knows if they will exist or not (although I have seen a few), at least not in large numbers.
So, there we have it. Only one group benefits by remaking the Realms in their own image, and its for purely selfish reasons that this 'Frankenstein" setting is being forced to 'walk among us'. As of yesterday morning, I still planned to buy the 4e FRCG. Now that I seen through their little ruse, I can't bring myself to, no matter how good it might actually be.
Sorry for the Mace-like Rant, but the whole concept of Hasbro forcing anything on the designers got me thinking hard about all of this...
They should have "fought the good fight", and just like it die in peace. A brand-new setting would have been amazing, benefitted everyone, and not harmed existing settings in any way.
It also would not have sold any novels.
You figure it out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 May 2008 17:03:00 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 03:27:47
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Markustay, you and I and everyone know why Drizzt is still a live. The sales of his novels eclipse all. When I think about the Realms under 3e, I have to think that the Realms failed because Wizards couldn't support it. It became a novel driven setting because they couldn't possibly release enough supplements fast enough to cover complete conversion update. And why couldn't they release enough supplements?
It's not for lack of freelancers.
It's not for lack of art.
You could even try to blame a delay on 3.5 and having to take a step back.
But in the end, it comes down to money.
Every D&D supplement has to return a profit. Because every book after 3.5 was full color and hardcover, every book was significantly more expensive to product. Bean counters aren't going to accept WOTC spending all this money printing books and not getting more.
And lets face it, if you don't play Realms or don't like the Realms, D&D players probably weren't going to buy more then the FRCS.. if they even bought that. So you have all these really expensive to make books coming out with even more expensive price tags, and very few people buying them. It's a formula to FAIL.
That's why there will be only four 4E Realms supplements. They're giving the Realms enough to play in and that'll be that. Their core focus is selling splat books, not campaign settings. Based on their sales numbers, people don't want WOTC campaign settings. You either like the Realms or hate the Realms. You either like Eberron or you hate Eberron. My bet is there are fewer people buying Eberron books then Realms books and both combined are dwarfed in sales buy the splat books.
That's why companies like Green Ronin, Necromancer, and let's face it.. Paizo are running away with things. They have well written, well edited, and let's face it CHEAPER campaign settings to play it.
Look at 3e. Wizard abandoned Greyhawk, they couldn't afford to publish Dragonlance, and they didn't care what happened to Ravenloft when they licensed it. The only thing they did keep was the Forgotten Realms and they messed it up. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 17:40:09
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I apologize for how rude my previous post was. What I was driving at was that Hasbro was indeed responsible for getting the 4e ball rolling, and the designers did the best 'patch job' they could come up with.
Reading your post carefully SirUrza (and it is very well thought-out), I see a flaw in their logic.
They don't want to sell products that lose money (or at leasst don't reach a certain 'minimum profit'), so they have looked over what sells best (the DMG, PHB, MM, and setting books), and decided to just keep making those.
This is akin to McDonalds deciding they aren't going to sell Hamburgers anymore, because they make so much more off of soda. Do fast-food chains make any money off of their 'dollar menus'? NO... they make it all on the $2 drink you bought to go with it, that only cost them about 5¢. They know they have to take a loss on some things, in order to bring in the customers for the stuff they make the real money on. And by "take a loss", I mean break even, or only make teeny, tiny profit on.
This formula has worked for fast food, and plenty of other businesses as well. Its the whole basis behind 'coupons' and 'sales'. The idea is to get the customer in the door, and then make the money on the impulse buys.
So... how the hell does WotC plan on making any money, when they are not willing to 'take the hits' in other areas? The game setting feeds the novel line, and vice-versa. Just like people survive on food and water - you can't take away the food and say we'll just drink more water. Without a consistent setting line, the novels will begin to lose sales. Seriously, who ever bought an FR novel BEFORE TSR relesed the game setting?
Haven't they thought of that?
It seems at one time WotC DID understand how business works - when they released the new books in 3e, they were only $19.99 at first, which generated a lot of buzz and increased sales. People who were sitting on the fence (like myself) said "what the helll, for that price I might as well check it out". They also included a really cool CD with those books, with a great looking program for generating characters... that they were supposed to finish later on.
So... where are the 'Freebies' this time out? It seems they axed all the great things that would make people want to switch, and have only provided us with stuff that will make them money. Even the DDi was geared this way - sourcebooks don't produce high-enough numbers, so they will take 90% of the cost factor out - the printing and distribution - and just sell the part that makes them money - the content. They are unwilling to part with even one red cent as far as 4e is concerned. Where are all the incentives we got to switch when 3e was released?
For a company to make money, it has to be willing to give something up. Even when I was the head carpenter for a huge Home Improvement company in the 80's, the supply houses would give away free vacations to the companies that gave them the most business. Drug Comapanies give doctors free buffet lunches (at least one a week) to get them to prescribe their drugs (I used to work for a place that did all the catering).
And right now, Paizo is giving away its rules, providing inexpensive PDFs for all their supplements, and giving away free 'Player's Guides' for their adventure paths.
Paizo understands how this works, and so did WotC.
But it seems that Hasbro has forgotten this. They want ALL the profit, without giving anything up. Only one business model works in this scenario - when someone buys a comapny and sucks it dry, just before bankrupting it.
Either they aren't very business savy over there (and I certainly doubt that), or they no longer want the 'losing' portions of WotC, and are just trying to drain them for all they are worth before deep-sixing D&D.
Thats the ONLY thing that makes sense to me. They are milking it for all its worth, knowing full well they are losing the battle against other companies where RPGs are concerned.
My logic may be faulty, and I hope it is. I hate the idea that a company is purpoosely destroying D&D, because they don't want to be bothered with a low-profit generating IP.
Then again, maybe it IS time for others to step up to the plate. The designers are right - it IS time for something new and exciting... its just that FR Extreme wasn't it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 May 2008 19:29:27 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2008 : 19:36:22
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*corrected* 
I'm so used to agreeing with your rants, that I just assume any well-reasoned anti-WotC post is yours.
But whatever, its all water under the bridge now.
I do see a bright side to all of this - WHEN we start putting out CKC articles again, we no longer need worry about future lore over-writing what we do. In the one I wrote, Maztica was on the map (albeit a very small piece of it) - I was a little upset to find out just a couple of weeks later that Maztica was gone.
Thats all over now. As long as they keep to their promise, and DON'T write any source material for the hundred-year span, we here at CK can write WHATEVER we want, and people will except it as psuedo-canon, for lack of anything else.
So in a weird sort of way, 4e is will wind up being rather 'empowering' for the scribes here.
*Note - I said WHEN, not 'if' when referring to the Compendiums. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 May 2008 19:45:50 |
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4e FR
