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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2008 : 13:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's not the best example. Part of the problem was that other people kept changing things she'd done, and changing the rules she'd learned when she wrote the first books. Telling a story can be difficult enough without someone else changing all of the background behind you while you're doing it.
Indeed, just think of all the times you've wrote a game and come to a part you had worked on and realized it just didn't work. Now imagine th at happening because someone else did something that made your story not work. I imagine it'd drive me insane.  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 20:27:58
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True, but allow me to remind that Elaine has dealt with rule changes in the background before (successfully). The author herself has said as much.
In short, I do think everyone is correct, here (and as I mentioned on the WotC boards, all we can do is speculate about "what went wrong"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 May 2008 20:29:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 22:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
True, but allow me to remind that Elaine has dealt with rule changes in the background before (successfully). The author herself has said as much.
In short, I do think everyone is correct, here (and as I mentioned on the WotC boards, all we can do is speculate about "what went wrong").
Yeah, but this time, it's not just a minor change. They've been doing stuff like pretty much invalidating everything that she wrote about moonblades, for example. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6692 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 01:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by imis999
The article gave me a good chuckle. I've spent 25 to 30 bucks every quarter or so for the latest FR book. Now WoTC decides they want to save me money by not printing more FR books. Thanks!
(I still can not figure out how they'll stay in business)
I think they hope that you'll buy all the core books they plan to release and use them in your FR game. The trap as I see it is that many people will buy the first three core books, the setting books of their choice and leave it at that.
3E was the first edition where I bought quite a few core add-on books. Now they are all pretty paperweights.
Given that I only bought them to use in the writing of articles, I'm not sure in hindsight that I'll go down that road again in 4E.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 02:43:00
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| I wasn't writing articles so I didn't buy them. Why would I have particularly cared what Wizards staffers had to make up about those subjects, not as part of a long-term creative project but in service to a ruleset and implied setting that was deliberately temporary? They were directed at the cravers after rules bits and/or PC power whose appetites have so harmed and twisted the roleplaying culture. The new strategy blurs the core/non-core line so as to sell more supplements to non-rules freaks. But they've given me no reason to use the new rules in the first place. |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 03:09:28
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I have a slightly different take on Bill's article. I did not see him say that the Realms were going to be interchangeable with any other campaign setting. Rather, since the majority of releases would be core supplements, they would all apply to the Realms, Eberron, and whatever other setting they develop. It makes sense to me for a D&D community. In 3.5, when a gamer has a limited budget each month, and he runs a Realms campaign, he's likely to buy a Realms supplement and omit a Core supplement. The new directive is to make all D&D players D&D players as opposed to Realms players, Eberron players, etc.
I don't necessarily agree with it since my community is either Realms or my actual gaming group. But, I have been blending Core and campaign-specific rules since I've been running games. If they plan to make it easier to do what I've always done, I'm for that. |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 03:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wasn't writing articles so I didn't buy them. Why would I have particularly cared what Wizards staffers had to make up about those subjects, not as part of a long-term creative project but in service to a ruleset and implied setting that was deliberately temporary? They were directed at the cravers after rules bits and/or PC power whose appetites have so harmed and twisted the roleplaying culture. The new strategy blurs the core/non-core line so as to sell more supplements to non-rules freaks. But they've given me no reason to use the new rules in the first place.
How has the "roleplaying culture" been harmed? Are you suggesting that there is a right way to play D&D?
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 07:49:00
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| Marketing RPG books to players and biasing products and mechanics towards the limited cadre who buy powergaming rules supplements, instead of seriously marketing to create new players, has helped to twist 'gamer' culture inward into rulesplay, cliquey jargon, insular humour and other ruts foreign and offputting to normal people who aren't committed 'gamers' (and aren't 80% male); wallowing in geeky self-reflexive inconsequentiality and so disrespectful of its own authors as to call their work 'fluff' and leave their names off award ballots and sometimes covers. |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 10:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
The new directive is to make all D&D players D&D players as opposed to Realms players, Eberron players, etc.
I find this notion pretty disconcerting. My group and me, we're D&D players because we're FR players. Before 3e, we were FR players, too - but not AD&D players. Oh well.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 11:06:48
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| Reminds of the MtG model, where a setting serves mainly to distinguish the next release of cards. |
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Tazak Nymar
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 15:40:15
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Instead of waiting for this new writer to come along just go forth and create the next incarnation of Azure Blades for WotC. Start publishing your own stories or send them to publishers or read the submissions guideline for Dragon/Dungeon then apply! And this goes for all of the talented scribes here at the Keep, especially the ones who contribute to the Candlekeep Compendium and complain about the new setting. (Or the scribes who don’t and still complain every chance the get about the 4e Realms) Its obvious we have the talent here, so go freelance in the field of RPG’s. Maybe you can one day work for WotC and help them with Forgotten Realms
I would say that one of the biggest sources of irritation as far as I have been able to figure out is the warping of Faerun into something different for the sake of.... what ? New players ? The creation of a divide between the old setting and the WotC/Hasbro setting ? Making life easier for WotC staffers and/or new writers ? Pressuring realmsfans into buying the new ruleset ? Getting rid of the particularities of Faerun so it blends better with the new ruleset ? I for one would like to know why they feel like gutting Faerun for this new setting is so necessary. If sales were so low that something had to be done I would be able to accept the new course and either help or fade away in my best impression of graceful silence.
None of these reasons are positive in my opinion except the last which is acceptable, and I would guess that is close to the opinion of others as well. What would be the point of making the effort to help WotC if the material you are taking time to write goes against whatever goals they have ? I really doubt they would have much interest in an article that highlights how great playing before the spellplague was.
quote:
I agree the updated Forgotten Realms could have been handled better public relation wise. But the last time I checked the ‘Shattered Realms” can still be played in a D&D style, regardless of what ruleset you happen to be using, first editions rules through fourth or converting over to a white wolf d10 system. And this attitude of not helping new people just rubs me the wrong way. Especially if they don’t show an express interest in the “Real Forgotten Realms” that is just plan wrong and causes a division in the Realms community. Please reconsider what you wrote.
Word of mouth promotion and/or support is exactly what I feel this new ruleset/setting doesn't deserve from me. I am not saying that I would harass or bother a new player. I am saying that I would not support 4e Faerun under any circumstances right now.
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Tazak Nymar
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 16:31:27
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I have a slightly different take on Bill's article. I did not see him say that the Realms were going to be interchangeable with any other campaign setting. Rather, since the majority of releases would be core supplements, they would all apply to the Realms, Eberron, and whatever other setting they develop. It makes sense to me for a D&D community. In 3.5, when a gamer has a limited budget each month, and he runs a Realms campaign, he's likely to buy a Realms supplement and omit a Core supplement. The new directive is to make all D&D players D&D players as opposed to Realms players, Eberron players, etc.
I don't necessarily agree with it since my community is either Realms or my actual gaming group. But, I have been blending Core and campaign-specific rules since I've been running games. If they plan to make it easier to do what I've always done, I'm for that.
Rather than have everything standarized. I believe it would have been easier to just write one or four A+ trilogies about characters having to solve problems by plane-hopping between settings. This would merge all settings into a "D&D multiverse". Following up on natural consequences of such "cross-pollination" or manipulating such results to a degree could have resulted on less people alienated because of the need to make settings less distinctive as to better fit the "Core works for everything" goal. Less need to make distinctive but little used places disappear (The Old Empires come to mind.) And less need to make radical changes.
Thus saying that Faerun, Oerth and Krynn exist on the same universe and that it is possible to get from A to B does indeed make all the settings a bit smaller and does indeed make everything fit into a mold of sorts.
They are even able to do it still in a fashion. Though they expressed a very pronounced interest in getting rid of the old Wheel of Alingments in the outer planes. This level of connectivity could very well be achieved with a carefully revamped Spelljammer.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 17:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
Reminds of the MtG model, where a setting serves mainly to distinguish the next release of cards.
I couldn't pinpoint my worries this precisely, but you nailed it, mate. With all the per encounter etc powers... you tap 'em and off it goes. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 18:21:08
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Based on Bill's statements, I agree with Tazak that a novel series, perhaps even a Cloakmaster-type, would be the best vehicle to expose players to other settings.
Perhaps using the Companions of the Hall (who can demonstrate for us the proper use of the time gate)? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2008 : 22:48:11
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Based on Bill's statements, I agree with Tazak that a novel series, perhaps even a Cloakmaster-type, would be the best vehicle to expose players to other settings.
Perhaps using the Companions of the Hall (who can demonstrate for us the proper use of the time gate)?
Which would nullify the intro to Orc King which implies the companions, sans Drizzt, are dead |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 21:14:14
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News from the front -
RB doesn't want us to quote him anymore, but he basically just announced that all of Ed's Anchorome stuff got scrapped for 'space considerations', EXACTLY as I predicted. 
Neither will we see all the stuff promised about the 'other Realms' - the FRCG will be about Faerûn proper, with perhaps just a brief mention of Zakhara and Kara-Tur.
On the other hand, the new continent that will be replacing Maztica seems to to have gotten a lot of room, and Ed DID work on that, so its not a total loss.
Now instead of buying the book for all of Ed's lore, we can just photocopy the 'Maztica replacement' section from a friend's copy. See? There's a bright side to everything. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 22:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
News from the front -
RB doesn't want us to quote him anymore, but he basically just announced that all of Ed's Anchorome stuff got scrapped for 'space considerations', EXACTLY as I predicted.
Neither will we see all the stuff promised about the 'other Realms' - the FRCG will be about Faerûn proper, with perhaps just a brief mention of Zakhara and Kara-Tur.
On the other hand, the new continent that will be replacing Maztica seems to to have gotten a lot of room, and Ed DID work on that, so its not a total loss.
Now instead of buying the book for all of Ed's lore, we can just photocopy the 'Maztica replacement' section from a friend's copy. See? There's a bright side to everything.
Bleck! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 22:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now instead of buying the book for all of Ed's lore, we can just photocopy the 'Maztica replacement' section from a friend's copy. See? There's a bright side to everything.
You know, whether or not you like 4E, doing something like that would be illegal. And it would deny Ed and Brian money they've earned. We do not need to be advocating such activities here.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 May 2008 23:21:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 01:21:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
RB doesn't want us to quote him anymore, but he basically just announced that all of Ed's Anchorome stuff got scrapped for 'space considerations', EXACTLY as I predicted.
That's unfortunate. This was one of the few elements of the FRCG that I was actually looking forward to.
quote:
Neither will we see all the stuff promised about the 'other Realms' - the FRCG will be about Faerûn proper, with perhaps just a brief mention of Zakhara and Kara-Tur.
Another potential loss. As it stands, 4e FR looks to be continuing the tradition of 3e FR, whereupon very little of the world beyond Faerûn is properly acknowledged in the material.
Perhaps we'll see some "Beyond Faerûn" articles in the D&Di.
quote:
Now instead of buying the book for all of Ed's lore, we can just photocopy the 'Maztica replacement' section from a friend's copy. See? There's a bright side to everything.
I'd have to agree with Wooly here. Advocating this type of action on a public message board is probably a bad idea. Not only does it deny Ed the money he's earned, but it's a potentially problematic legal issue for Candlekeep as well. Especially if more scribes start discussing/executing the same type of response here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 01:23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
RB doesn't want us to quote him anymore, but he basically just announced that all of Ed's Anchorome stuff got scrapped for 'space considerations', EXACTLY as I predicted.
He said they didn't get to Anchorome. He didn't quite say it was scrapped for space considerations, although that's certainly possible. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2008 : 03:09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Based on Bill's statements, I agree with Tazak that a novel series, perhaps even a Cloakmaster-type, would be the best vehicle to expose players to other settings.
Perhaps using the Companions of the Hall (who can demonstrate for us the proper use of the time gate)?
Which would nullify the intro to Orc King which implies the companions, sans Drizzt, are dead
Then they're not using the time gate!  Oh, well. July 1st the paperback comes out and I can eeek closer to being current on Realmslore.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 14:39:30
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I used the '' specifically to show that that statement was in jest - sorry if anyone took it otherwise.
besides, no one 'photocopies' anymore.
And Rinon, several people, INCLUDING Rich Baker and Ed himself mentioned that Ed was indeed working on the Anchorome stuff. According to the Podcast, Ed produced a HUMOUNGOUS amount of material for the book, and it was the job of certain editors to 'widdle it down' to a more convenient size. In fact, Brian James was specifically mentioned as getting the job of turning Ed's 200 pages on waterdep into just six (A job I would never envy).
Ed produced the lore, it didn't just disappear - they are simply opting to include the stuff not relevant to a new campaign in future installments of the DDi. I suspect, but cannot prove, that they are 'keeping the best' of the new Ed lore for the DDi, in hopes of getting some of us old-school FRers to sign on.
I mean, come on, its not like any of us are about to shell out for the Zhent Headless Horseman, right? '
BTW, everyone has heard that Ed is writing for Paizo's new setting, right?
EDIT: And as I just now found out, so is Elaine Cunningham.
This is starting to get as 'juicy' as reality TV.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 May 2008 14:47:47 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 19:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Rinon, several people, INCLUDING Rich Baker and Ed himself mentioned that Ed was indeed working on the Anchorome stuff. According to the Podcast, Ed produced a HUMOUNGOUS amount of material for the book, and it was the job of certain editors to 'widdle it down' to a more convenient size.
I'm aware of that, and I understand that Rich doesn't want to be quoted. However, I also don't want anything to be "lost in translation" here, either, so to speak. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2008 : 22:25:35
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True enough.
I have no facts, just the word of three official sources that Ed was indeed working on Anchorome several months back, and one of those sources was Ed himself.
That doesn't mean he ever got that far perhaps, but at the rate Ed creates fresh material, I think he could of whipped up an entire planet since then.
But your right, there's nothing to say his work ever progressed to the point where he wrote down or submitted any of the Anchorome parts.
It just happens to be something I was looking forward to - one of the few things, really... when the new FRCG was released. I suspected his contribution was going to be cut short (after all, they said Ed was writing 50,0a00 words, then NEVER promised to print any of it), and sadly, I accurtely guaged how much the current team really wanted Ed's contribution, and how much was all a facade.
I've seen nothing more then "smoke and mirrors" with this new Realms, and very little in the way of actual substance. It sounds like all sales jargon and empty promises... but we shall soon find out just how "Awesome" the end result is, won't we?
In the meantime, I'll be over at the Paizo site... in case anyone needs me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 May 2008 14:29:33 |
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imis999
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 03:25:59
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I need some advice, and I hope it isn't too controversial.
I really am disgusted with the direction of the new Realms including this cutting back on the new material I was actually interested in. I don't know any other way to protest than to not buy the new products. My thought is should I not purchase the new book "Swordmage"? I have bought every book put out for FR for more than a decade, and this would be the first book I did not buy. Thoughts? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 04:49:43
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quote:
Originally posted by imis999
I need some advice, and I hope it isn't too controversial.
I really am disgusted with the direction of the new Realms including this cutting back on the new material I was actually interested in. I don't know any other way to protest than to not buy the new products. My thought is should I not purchase the new book "Swordmage"? I have bought every book put out for FR for more than a decade, and this would be the first book I did not buy. Thoughts?
Many people have advocated voting with their wallet. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 04:57:01
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| If you are interested in buying the books, but don't want your dollars to act as a vote from WotC's perspective pick them up second-hand from places like AbeBooks, Amazon Marketplace (look for secondhand booksellers) and probably a number more. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 14:33:39
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I don't like anything 4e, and I wasn't planning on buying any novel having to do with, even if was a crossover from 3e to 4e (as the Thay series is).
However, I do NOT have a problem with Rich Baker's writing, and I am interested in the Swordmage class, so I WILL be picking this up, especially since I have heard good things.
The book revolves around characters, NOT events, and that is a turn for the better for Realms authors. Add in that it takes place in 1379 DR (placing it at the tail-end of 3e), and it becomes an easy choice for me.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2008 21:37:22 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 16:07:37
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I'd say for a review or two. You have your anwer if it is a good book.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 16:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
I'd say for a review or two. You have your anwer if it is a good book.
Not necessarily. As I've commented elsewhere, some of the recent series that have gotten a lot of positive review -- the Erevis Cale trilogy, the WotSQ series, the Sembia books -- were ones I either didn't find particularly notable, or that I flat out disliked. It's very much a Your Milage May Vary scenario. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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4e FR
