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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 12:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
I'm starting to wonder if the FR changes aren't more to do with Salvatores demands than 4E.
I doubt it--why single out Salvatore?
He's the most successful realms author. I can't think of another realms author that would want to change the realms. And if the realms changes are driven more by future books than 4E, then its the authors influence than the game designers. |
“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 13:53:47
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To be honest, I don't know if Salvatore would have that kind of "clout" to impose those kind of changes. I also don't think he would really want to push the issue. The Realms have always been co-driven by the novels and by the game materials (a few that could have been novels in their own rights), at least to the best of my understanding. I may be wrong on that, but Ed's books and then later the other authors who have so wonderfully contributed to this rich and lush gaming environment have always gone (pretty much) hand in hand with the gaming material. Some books were written because of Supplements, and some Supplements were written because of books. It has been symbiotic.
These changes, I feel, aren't being driven by authors. They're being driven by Hasbro. Games like WOW, Everquest, and the upcoming Warhammer: Age of Reckoning all are taking chunks out of the money (and minds) of potential customers. D&D "needs to compete". Pure and Simple. Unfortunately, in any corporate maneuver there are sacrifices to be made. The largest one is appears to be the Settings, more particularly FR at this time.
I don't think you can point the finger at the authors. Troy Denning didn't kill Anakin Solo, George Lucas did ("Fans would be too confused by two Anakins in Star Wars"). Likewise, I don't think you can say the Authors are really "driving" much of anything right now, but more being strapped into the car, while the crazy uncle that's had too much to drink, and who's wife is leaving him, has jumped behind the wheel. |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 15:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
He's the most successful realms author. I can't think of another realms author that would want to change the realms. And if the realms changes are driven more by future books than 4E, then its the authors influence than the game designers.
We can't do anything but speculate here, but--while it's highly likely that the changes were done in part to accomadate novelists--I highly doubt Salvatore played as big a part as you think he might have. The vast majority of his novels are highly localized and character-based, and tend to be set in locales that he had a hand in creating.
Also, consider that the designers are themselves novelists--Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell, and Phil Athans are the "driving hands" here, and they've all written novels for the setting.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Apr 2008 15:22:07 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 15:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdGunn
To be honest, I don't know if Salvatore would have that kind of "clout" to impose those kind of changes. I also don't think he would really want to push the issue.
Agreed. Salvatore is a freelancer, and has never shown any interest (that I've seen) in imposing drastic changes to this setting before. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Tazak Nymar
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2008 : 18:45:14
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quote:
To be honest, I don't know if Salvatore would have that kind of "clout" to impose those kind of changes. I also don't think he would really want to push the issue. The Realms have always been co-driven by the novels and by the game materials (a few that could have been novels in their own rights), at least to the best of my understanding. I may be wrong on that, but Ed's books and then later the other authors who have so wonderfully contributed to this rich and lush gaming environment have always gone (pretty much) hand in hand with the gaming material. Some books were written because of Supplements, and some Supplements were written because of books. It has been symbiotic.
These changes, I feel, aren't being driven by authors. They're being driven by Hasbro. Games like WOW, Everquest, and the upcoming Warhammer: Age of Reckoning all are taking chunks out of the money (and minds) of potential customers. D&D "needs to compete". Pure and Simple. Unfortunately, in any corporate maneuver there are sacrifices to be made. The largest one is appears to be the Settings, more particularly FR at this time.
This I completely agree with.
Also Ed himself if memory doesn't fail me stated something as accepting getting on the horse or getting left behind.
Like others have said surely more eloquently than I. Forgotten Realms is dead. Maybe the bottom line is that the people doing this are essentially killing the old pig for the piglet. The more I think about it the more I think they hope to re-create the realms. Maybe by having a new young writer "create" the new Alias and Dragonbait and maybe the new Cadderly and Danica.
Maybe I'm just a grognard but I feel this isn't a wonderful new beginning at all. I suppose one could give it time and hope for the best but it's simply too much.
I suppose a better presented Shattered Realms would have been more palatable if one could play it as D&D. The whole new realms for the new edition is not something I will celebrate. Far from it, should a new player ask about this things in a positive light I will not help him or her.
Should a new player not be interested in the real Forgotten Realms and express an interest in something resembling 4e in the 4e realms. I will not help that player either and allow him to find his or her way without polluting myself.
WotC/Hasbro do not care about me. Why should I care about anything that happens to them either ?
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 12:36:34
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Originally posted by Tazak Nymar
quote:
This I completely agree with.
Also Ed himself if memory doesn't fail me stated something as accepting getting on the horse or getting left behind.
Like others have said surely more eloquently than I. Forgotten Realms is dead. Maybe the bottom line is that the people doing this are essentially killing the old pig for the piglet. The more I think about it the more I think they hope to re-create the realms. Maybe by having a new young writer "create" the new Alias and Dragonbait and maybe the new Cadderly and Danica.
Maybe I'm just a grognard but I feel this isn't a wonderful new beginning at all. I suppose one could give it time and hope for the best but it's simply too much.
I suppose a better presented Shattered Realms would have been more palatable if one could play it as D&D. The whole new realms for the new edition is not something I will celebrate. Far from it, should a new player ask about this things in a positive light I will not help him or her.
Should a new player not be interested in the real Forgotten Realms and express an interest in something resembling 4e in the 4e realms. I will not help that player either and allow him to find his or her way without polluting myself.
WotC/Hasbro do not care about me. Why should I care about anything that happens to them either ?
Instead of waiting for this new writer to come along just go forth and create the next incarnation of Azure Blades for WotC. Start publishing your own stories or send them to publishers or read the submissions guideline for Dragon/Dungeon then apply! And this goes for all of the talented scribes here at the Keep, especially the ones who contribute to the Candlekeep Compendium and complain about the new setting. (Or the scribes who don’t and still complain every chance the get about the 4e Realms) Its obvious we have the talent here, so go freelance in the field of RPG’s. Maybe you can one day work for WotC and help them with Forgotten Realms.
I agree the updated Forgotten Realms could have been handled better public relation wise. But the last time I checked the ‘Shattered Realms” can still be played in a D&D style, regardless of what ruleset you happen to be using, first editions rules through fourth or converting over to a white wolf d10 system. And this attitude of not helping new people just rubs me the wrong way. Especially if they don’t show an express interest in the “Real Forgotten Realms” that is just plan wrong and causes a division in the Realms community. Please reconsider what you wrote.
End of my rant
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 21:02:33
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Not a big fan of Drizzt, but I am a fan of RAS's writing - just needed to say that so you all know where I'm coming from.
It has been stated, NUMEROUS times, in blogs, podcasts, and in the infamous "ask the Designers Thread" over at WotC that both Ed and RAS were at the 'top secret summit' about 4e, some 2½ years ago...
The change in direction was mostly put forward by the guy in charge of the novels division, and backed up by Rich Baker, and I believe Chris Perkins (I could be wrong there, and I think there were also a few other 'luminaries' present, but it mostly three people pushing for this).
BOTH ED and RAS were against the changes, and the advance in the timeline, and had to be 'talked into' going along with it. I'm trying to find the exact quote on that and where it appeared first - I thought it was in the preview book but now I'm not seeing it.
Anyone else want to help me find it - it was part of the info released about the 'secret meeting' at Gencon(?) in 2005, and who was present.
Either way, the guys who made 'The Realms' a household word did NOT think 4e FR was a good idea at all. For whatever reason, they are onboard now... personally, I think it was along the lines of "you can do this with us, or we'll just go ahead and do it without you".
Bottomline is I think (my opinion, mind you) that they both still hate it, but neither of them wants to "bite the hand that feeds them".
I personally think that they should have let Ed, RAS, and Elaine (and perhaps one or two others) continue writing in the 'old Realms'. It really doesn't look like THEY will be allowed to... although certain people - ones on 'the team' - WILL be allowed to. Go figure... the guys who pushed for the timeline change will get to violate it, and the ones against it will have to stay in the 'new era'.
Aren't corporate politics just grand? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Apr 2008 21:23:23 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 23:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Bottomline is I think (my opinion, mind you) that they both still hate it, but neither of them wants to "bite the hand that feeds them".
Or are contracted to write a certain number of novels and cannot break that. I heard that RAS (though this was so long ago I don't remember when or where) was contracted to write two more novels after the Ghost King. If this is true, then he does not have much choice in the matter but to go along with it. I also think that in part, WotC is trying to use Drizzt as the (or "a") catalyst to try and bring his fanboys (and fangirls) into the 4e Realms. His current trilogy is titled Transitions anyways. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 01:41:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BOTH ED and RAS were against the changes, and the advance in the timeline, and had to be 'talked into' going along with it. I'm trying to find the exact quote on that and where it appeared first - I thought it was in the preview book but now I'm not seeing it.
I have both preview books, and I don't recall any mention of this. The preview books don't really discuss the Realms, they discuss the "core setting."
That being said, I've heard of what you are saying, and agree with the point you are trying to make. Ed has stated in plain English that changing the Realms so drastically was not his idea.
quote:
I personally think that they should have let Ed, RAS, and Elaine (and perhaps one or two others) continue writing in the 'old Realms'. It really doesn't look like THEY will be allowed to... although certain people - ones on 'the team' - WILL be allowed to. Go figure... the guys who pushed for the timeline change will get to violate it, and the ones against it will have to stay in the 'new era'.
Emphasis mine--could you elaborate on this? I thought there was a push for all parties to focus only on the new Realms.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Apr 2008 01:44:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 02:15:12
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I already made this point, but I'm not sure if it was in this or another thread.
In the last podcast, Mike Mearls (the 'reporter') asks if there will be any 'lore' written for the 'Spellplague Era', or will everything (in the novels) be written in 4e only.
Bruce Cordell says "No, there won't be ANY novels written to fill in the hundred year gap, EXCEPT for a couple of notable exceptions, like MY upcoming trilogy of novels..."
So, when you dissect that staement, it means that NO ONE is allowed to 'fill in' the lore of the hundred year timejump, but 'company people' are allowed to break that rule and do whatever they want.
They basically reserved that century for themselves, and we are forced to buy any novels written by them if we want to learn about the 'lost century'. People like Ed, Elaine, and RAS don't need that crutch - they can write about Joe Shmoe from downtown Priapurl and we would enjoy it.
I think some writers need to make their novels 'history worthy' to keep them relevent (and on the best-seller lists). I think thats a pretty poor reason to RSE the Realms to death, just to pad-out your own resume, but whatever.
Thats just my opinion, BTW, and I don't plan on buying ANY FR novels that take place post-Spellplague, no matter who writes them. I just have no interest in that 'other setting'. I really wanted to read the new series set in Thay, but the Spellplague hits in the first book, so that's now on my 'no-read' list. If I want to read about the "Plateau of Leng". I'll buy a Lovecraft novel. 
Sorry if this rocked anyone's boat, but I'm going through a second wave of post-Spellplague depression ATM. The latest podcast just gets under my skin in ways I can't describe. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Apr 2008 02:16:55 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 02:22:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Bruce Cordell says "No, there won't be ANY novels written to fill in the hundred year gap, EXCEPT for a couple of notable exceptions, like MY upcoming trilogy of novels..."
On further thought, I had the feeling you were referring to that, but thanks for explaining your point more.
See, as far as I'm concerned, if a series has anything to do with the Spellplague, or transitioning from the "old Realms" into the "new Realms", it's not a classic Realms novel, it's a 4E novel. Of course, that's MY very biased take on things. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 04:21:26
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But my point is that they've basically just 'reserved' that slice of time in case they need it for something they are developing, meaning Freelance authors can't touch it. It's become 'designer-only' territory.
Thats means if someone introduces something new (which we are bound to see LOTS of come 4e), and need 'canon history' to back it up, they can just dump whatever they need into the 'undeveloped era'.
Its very handy, very clever, and VERY self-serving. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Apr 2008 04:22:31 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 05:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But my point is that they've basically just 'reserved' that slice of time in case they need it for something they are developing, meaning Freelance authors can't touch it. It's become 'designer-only' territory.
Thats means if someone introduces something new (which we are bound to see LOTS of come 4e), and need 'canon history' to back it up, they can just dump whatever they need into the 'undeveloped era'.
Its very handy, very clever, and VERY self-serving.
To be fair.
They could easily have other writers, who introduce the next "Drizzt" to develop a background in whatever way they deem necessary.
Introduce an amazing Harper, well it just so happens that said Harper was instrumental to forcing the Moonstars back in line with the Harpers! And we'll have the trilogy out about that in the next few years!
Just one example, off the top of my head, I'm sure I could come up with dozens if I took a few minutes.
I'm pretty sure you can see my point though. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 15:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
To be fair.
They could easily have other writers, who introduce the next "Drizzt" to develop a background in whatever way they deem necessary.
No need for a new Drizzt when the old one has conveniently survived the 100 years and is living safely in the new Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 16:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
To be fair.
They could easily have other writers, who introduce the next "Drizzt" to develop a background in whatever way they deem necessary.
No need for a new Drizzt when the old one has conveniently survived the 100 years and is living safely in the new Realms.
No need???? No need?!?!?!!???
But what about PROFIT!!!!! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 17:00:35
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| The funny thing about Drizzt being around in 4e(vil) Realms is that his companions are basically rotting somewhere. One of the strengths of the Drizzt books were the companions as a unit. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 23:26:01
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Bill Slavicsek has clarified some of the news he said at last weeks GAMA show:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080430&authentic=true |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:34:26
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I could be misreading Bill, but it almost sounded like the point is to make sure all of the D&D settings have similar "talking points," but each one will have different elements dialed up or down depending on the setting. For example, much of the Realms is "points of lightish," to use Rich's term, but its civilized enough for Cormyr or Waterdeep to still be around.
But the point is, each setting fits the proper "General D&D Template," with a few different proper names and historical details changed. In other words, there has to be a Tiefling land, or a Dragonborn land, but how old or where those lands are might vary, depending on the setting.
This also plays into the idea that the Realms needed a "theme," according to the 4th edition team. The theme and the proper names are what delineates the settings. Take the "theme" out (which for the Realms is apparently that the Shades are the biggest badguys ever), and you have something much closer to "ground zero D&D." Which makes it easier to strip items out for all of those poor D&D players that have had FR "inflicted" on them.
In light of this idea that Core D&D must be served first and foremost, and the individual setting comes in a distant second, is it really good news that FR might be supported on the DDI? Perhaps a few articles that deal with history and lore might show up, but it seems like the "utility" business model will apply here too (after all, WOTC pays money to get these articles written, and the non FR players need to feel like the FR DDI articles are valuable as well), which likely means the DDI articles will mainly be about new rules options, with some lore tidbits here and there.
What really ticks me off is, after being told that they couldn't cater to some fans "entitlement," and they had to make the setting more palatable for a wider range of fans, the tone seems to be that, they still don't care if people hate the Realms, they're just promising that the Realms bits won't jump out as much while they skip the "lore" parts of the book to get to the monsters and powers and paragon paths and epic destinies that they will be using for their real campaigns.
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 01 May 2008 00:34:58 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I could be misreading Bill, but it almost sounded like the point is to make sure all of the D&D settings have similar "talking points," but each one will have different elements dialed up or down depending on the setting. For example, much of the Realms is "points of lightish," to use Rich's term, but its civilized enough for Cormyr or Waterdeep to still be around.
That's more or less what I took from the article, myself.
quote:
Take the "theme" out (which for the Realms is apparently that the Shades are the biggest badguys ever)
HA! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 May 2008 00:41:17 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
No need???? No need?!?!?!!???
But what about PROFIT!!!!!
That's why Drizzt miraculously survived the Spellplague.
quote:
The funny thing about Drizzt being around in 4e(vil) Realms is that his companions are basically rotting somewhere. One of the strengths of the Drizzt books were the companions as a unit.
Very true. Maybe in a few years, Drizzt will finally be retired as a novel character? I honestly think over 20 novels is more than enough for any single character, but that's just me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:45:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
HA!
I forgot to post my standard disclaimer, that being that I don't agree with said theme, but it does seem to be the theme they are going with, what with all of the "goodly" nations arrayed around them and working together against them.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 00:48:21
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I forgot to post my standard disclaimer, that being that I don't agree with said theme, but it does seem to be the theme they are going with, what with all of the "goodly" nations arrayed around them and working together against them.
Don't worry, I get what you're saying. Your words, which I took to be ironic, struck a chord with me because I've been complaining for a while now about how Shade-centric the published Realms seems to have become. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 15:24:49
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Another article about imaginary problems.
And when I say imaginary I mean that the people who provoked this change (ie. the fans who talked about being unable to use this or that product) were imagining a problem that wasn't there.
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that what they produce will end up being stuff that isn't even remotely interesting to me. Even if I decide to give the 4E system a try. (ie. I might try playing 4E, but I wouldn't want to play in post Spellplague FR)
And I think that Drizzt could still be written about in an interesting manner but I just don't see that happening, all I see coming out looks like bad action movie stuff. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 16:49:48
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Well, after that article, I no longer need fear that they might be trying to homogenize everything in 4e, Bill confirmed that they are trying to homogenize everything in 4e. Bloody hell! The whole point of having different campaign settings is because each and every one is supposed to be different, and the differences about each one is what draws certain fans too it! I am at a loss for words to further extrapolate on my outrage.  Bad WotC, no donut! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 17:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Well, after that article, I no longer need fear that they might be trying to homogenize everything in 4e, Bill confirmed that they are trying to homogenize everything in 4e. Bloody hell! The whole point of having different campaign settings is because each and every one is supposed to be different, and the differences about each one is what draws certain fans too it! I am at a loss for words to further extrapolate on my outrage. Bad WotC, no donut!
I could find plenty of words for you, but I couldn't post them on these forums... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
Edited by - Aravine on 01 May 2008 17:40:08 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2008 : 19:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Well, after that article, I no longer need fear that they might be trying to homogenize everything in 4e, Bill confirmed that they are trying to homogenize everything in 4e. Bloody hell! The whole point of having different campaign settings is because each and every one is supposed to be different, and the differences about each one is what draws certain fans too it! I am at a loss for words to further extrapolate on my outrage. Bad WotC, no donut!
I could find plenty of words for you, but I couldn't post them on these forums...
More words have been found to continue my rant: It would be like saying that all of a sudden, since there is now a (hypothetical) full-blown Science Fiction campaign setting (and no, I still consider SpellJammer Fantasy), or three, that WotC has developed, or hell, even a new Modern one, we should allow rules for microwaves and spaceships and lasers in the Realms! Moment of refraining from typing and not very cogent list of other words that spring to mind. Moments of miming the random slamming of my fingers down on the keyboard in a fit of rage. Wow, I thought I just didn't like 4e and the 4e Realms because they limited me from the many options that had been opened to me with the 3e rules set and the 3e Realms, but now I am fairly positive that I want nothing to do with this bastardized (and I am using that word in a contextually correct way, but filter it if you feel you need to Wooly or Sage) homogenization of my favorite RPG system and campaign setting (though I might steal bits of the 4e SRD for my own rules set that I and my friend(s) are going to work on designing). End of rant for now, may continue later. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 00:42:54
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I'm tired of ranting.
Nothing at all they say can surprise me anymore.
Just to sum up what my biggest problem is with this 'new direction' they are taking is (and not just FR) -
A limited number of people only have a limited number of ideas in their head. No matter how great your muse may be, sooner or later, your stuff is going to start looking stale. It happens to the best of us, and it is not meant as an insult. A perfect example of that is Elaine's recent trouble finishing Reclamation - I consider her EXTREMELY talented, and one of FR's strongest authors... and yet, she just couldn't 'get it together'.
No insult intended, just using her as an example of how even the 'best and brightest' can run out of steam.
Now, applying this to WotC's new tactic for publishing D&D material - One set of rules, and each setting must use these rules, pretty much 'as is'. Fine... there were plenty of companies producing excellent settings for 3e D20, so that should still be the case in 4e, right?
One difference - the SAME PEOPLE will be working on these settings, one a year, and we already know wich way they are leaning (Dragonborn in Greyhawk? Shades in Eberron? Aberrations in Dragonlance?) Sure, there are a bunch of guys (and gals) over at WotC, and they are all great designers, but when you get a group - even a large one - to keep 'pumping out' material for worlds, year after year, its all going to start to look the same, especially with this 'homogenized' attitude they have now.
If I can do the same stuff in FR as I can in Eberron or Greyhawk, then whats the point of me picking up the other setting books, aside from a new map? It works when other companies do a world, because it is a completely different set of people with their own unique ideas, but we are talking about a single group of people here, who all 'feed' off each other, and its only a matter of time before designer 'A's NPC for Dragonlance starts looking a lot like designer 'B's from the Realms, or a certain country in Greyhawk starts to sound an awful lot like one from Eberron. There are only so many creative juices flowing around a person's head, and eventually - no matter how good you are - they will get used up.
I know they've split into 'teams' for FR and Eberron, but they don't have enough people for that for ALL of TSR's worlds, and you also have to consider that these people still chat, have lunch, and basically 'brainstorm' together. Once they introduce the 'super-cool' Dragonborn in FR, won't it lose a bit of its luster when we see them again in Eberron, or Greyhawk, or Dragonlance... errrrr, forget DL... they already have them, before they got their 'wings clipped' for the other settings.
Its sad, because I still think 4e rules will be very good, and they could have built an amazing world around them.
ONE world, that they could have poured all their talent into, year after year. Pumping out settings year after year is exactly like a car company putting out new models, or a TOY company putting out it's latest and greatest 'tickle me Elmo' doll. The new one doesn't have to be better, or do anything new - as long as it looks different consumers will buy it.
Great business model, but a sad, sad day for gaming.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 May 2008 21:05:50 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 00:58:25
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
The whole point of having different campaign settings is because each and every one is supposed to be different, and the differences about each one is what draws certain fans too it!
I know.
I suppose WotC decided, somewhere along the line, that having settings be too different from each other will not help maximize profit. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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imis999
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 03:02:22
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The article gave me a good chuckle. I've spent 25 to 30 bucks every quarter or so for the latest FR book. Now WoTC decides they want to save me money by not printing more FR books. Thanks!
(I still can not figure out how they'll stay in business) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37008 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2008 : 04:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A limited number of people only have a limited number of ideas in their head. No matter how great your muse may be, sooner or later, your stuff is going to start looking stale. It happens to the best of us, and it is not meant as an insult. A perfect example of that is Elaine's recent trouble finishing Reclamation - I consider her EXTREMELY talented, and one of FR's strongest authors... and yet, she just couldn't 'get it together'.
That's not the best example. Part of the problem was that other people kept changing things she'd done, and changing the rules she'd learned when she wrote the first books. Telling a story can be difficult enough without someone else changing all of the background behind you while you're doing it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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4e FR
