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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 08:42:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
I admit, I liked the old gray box, I loved the hardcover Forgotten Realms Adventures book from 2nd (still have one), and I really loved the 3rd Edition FRCG. It's a trend that works in my favor as I anticipate the new one. 
I'm a little confused as to the source of angst against the new Realms. Is it the incorporation of 4th Edition? Is it the concept of the Spellplague? Is it the fast-foward? Is it the removal of (e-gads) Maztica? I mean, it's not like Wizards has re-written the history. "Hey Brian, you know all that work you put into GHotR? Yeah, we're not going to use that." 
I've realized I'm in the minority, and I'm not trying to attack opinions; just gain insight into my fellow gamers. 
Summarising your post a bit here. You see, to me its the opposite. I love the Grey-box, Really like the 2ed set and am less than impressed by the 3ed. set. Its been going downhill for me for a long time. This only continues the trend from 3ed. which (generalizing here of course) did nothing for me.
In addition I dont like what I hear about 4ed. any more than I like the 3ed. I hate the Spellplague and cant stand the time progression.
To put it simply; I like Eds Realms and I like old TSR products. This new edition reminds me very little of any of these. That makes me so reactionary when it comes to this game, that I am in an even smaller minority than you. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 09:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
But...I've always viewed the gods of the Realms as overly-meddlesome. And Cyric has been a timebomb since day one. So, really you can't say, "I didn't see that coming," but you're justified in exclaiming, "I didn't expect it to do that much damage!" 
I don't mind Cyric working against, or even attacking Mystra. He shouldn't have been able to kill her in her own realm, though. And it defies all internal consistency when they added that Shar prevented the rise of a new deity of magic -- that's not her option. Only Ao could do that.
It also defies all internal logic when Mystra's death touches off such a cataclysm. Two previous deities of magic died, and the worst thing that happened was that magic failed for a few minutes.
I also find it illogical that the Sellplague did things like rearrange continents and planes, blast deities out of the Realms, and import nations from other worlds -- things the gods themselves would have to work at -- and yet was apparently warded away by strong enough concentrations of mortal magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
Halruaa - a sizable nation of arcanists is wiped out, including their territory. It's happened before in the Realms at Karsus' Folly. Miyeritar's destruction. Imaskar's demise. I'll throw in another blast from the past -- Alphatia's destruction at the end of Wrath of the Immortals. Granted, the latter is not such a great example since the Mystara setting didn't really survive long after that. 
Karsus's Folly happened because of magic not working for a few minutes. Miyeritar was destroyed by high magic. None of those are quite the same thing as "oh, for some reason, all spells in just this one corner of the world detonated at the same time." If it was so necessary to wipe out Halruaa (and since I really liked that area, and it had been given two sourcebooks, including a 3E one, I'll readily debate that), they could have found a way to do it that wasn't a deus ex machina.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
Dragonborn - This is a tough one for me to explain away, especially since my gaming group has very little interest in the race anyway. So, I'm kind of on your side on this one, unless the full release can convince me otherwise. Although I can still call on a precedent with the orcgate wars of -1056DR. Sure, they weren't the first orcs in the Realms, but they were a different breed. Prior to that you have the Imaskari appearing bringing their Mulan slaves. Go figure that the dragonborn fall into the gap left by some of the Mulan.
I have no problem with the introduction of a new race. As I pointed out myself, they intro'ed the saurials thru a portal... I think the dragonborn could have easily been introduced as another race from that same world. But there are a couple of problems with the way they did it. One is that the race shares a name with an unrelated 3E race, which is just plain sloppy. Another is that here's a race that despises dragons, and yet is named after dragons.
And of course, they didn't bring them in thru a portal. They blasted a developed region off the map, to drop an already established nation into its place. That's nowhere near the same thing as prior racial introductions, and even if you don't like Mulhorand, it's still very much a deus ex machina way to go.
If Mulhorand somehow brought it down on themselves, with this new race springing up in the fallen nation, I could have bought that. Literally cutting and pasting from another world? Nope, doesn't work.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
The articles thus far say that the north is largely untouched, geographically. Wouldn't that suggest that the majority of Realms players play in the north? If WotC did any amount of demographic checking, that's probably the case. So if that is true, can't we just ignore the massive changes far to the south in game-play? Of course, if you were running a campaign set in the Shaar with forays to Mulhorand and Halruaa, that's small consolation.
I don't like having my sandbox shrunk down because someone else might not have played in the corner.
And if WotC did any amount of demographic checking (other than saying "piss on the old fans, let's see if we can get new ones by changing everything that was appealing for 20 years"), then they wouldn't have inflicted this crap on us. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 16:22:17
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Ithil,
I'd suggest reading a bit of the scrolls that talk about 4e and the changes. It's much more than a resistance to "moving forward", it's the disgust of the destruction of one of the greatest shared world settings ever.
Seriously, I do honestly question just how in the hell some of these ideas came about. I've done some incredible mental gymnastics to try and explain some of the various inconsistencies (quite a few of which Wooly pointed out) and I'm SICK of trying to make sense of some ridiculous, inane ideas that seem to be inspired by WoW, action movies and comic books. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 17:55:28
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As Wooly (and so many others over the last few months) have pointed out, its not the changes themselves we disagree with, but instead the rather 'cavalier' way in which they were introduced.
Halruaa could have been hit with a massive tidal wave (subterranean batrachi ruins exploding?), and other races could have been brought in by gates. For example, the Dragonborn (retched name) could have been brought into Unther by the Unthrites themselves, to help rebel against the Mulhorandi 'yoke', only to have the tables turned on them and the Dragonborn enslave the very people who brought them into FR. The Spellplagued Lands did not have to wipe out Sespech and the Nagalands - we already have at least two tremendous 'blank' areas that magic 'wiped out' in the past - The Raurin and Anauroch. Considering the highly-magical ruins buried beneath both, either would have made an ideal 'Magical Wasteland' like they wanted in 4e. What was the point of wiping out the existing areas for their 'Spellscarred lands', when others were perfetly set-up for such a thing?
The problem, as I see it, is that VERY LITTLE THOUGHT went into 4e FR. The designers just made some decisions surrounding their own personal tastes and preferences, and didn't even try to make the new Realms consistent in any way, shape, or form.
The changes were'nt bad unto themselves, it was the lack of quality/talent that went into their presentation. It is fairly apparent that those who designed the new FR were unfamiliar with the old one (and thats why they felt the need to destroy it).
I have seen dozens of alternate ways of explaining the changes presented all over the internet (not just here), and nearly all of them sound better then what the 'proffessionals' have come up with.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 18:44:10
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Thank you to ShadezofDis, Jorkens, Wooly Rupert and Markustay for entertaining my question with excellent responses. I'm certainly gaining the understanding I lack.
quote:
ShadezofDis wrote:
I'd suggest reading a bit of the scrolls that talk about 4e and the changes. It's much more than a resistance to "moving forward", it's the disgust of the destruction of one of the greatest shared world settings ever.
I apologize for my ignorance on what's come before in the scrolls. I'm trying to get caught up, but there are quite a few stacks to search through! 
quote:
Wooly Rupert wrote:
Two previous deities of magic died, and the worst thing that happened was that magic failed for a few minutes.
I also find it illogical that the Sellplague did things like rearrange continents and planes, blast deities out of the Realms, and import nations from other worlds -- things the gods themselves would have to work at -- and yet was apparently warded away by strong enough concentrations of mortal magic.
...
Karsus's Folly happened because of magic not working for a few minutes. Miyeritar was destroyed by high magic. None of those are quite the same thing as "oh, for some reason, all spells in just this one corner of the world detonated at the same time." If it was so necessary to wipe out Halruaa (and since I really liked that area, and it had been given two sourcebooks, including a 3E one, I'll readily debate that), they could have found a way to do it that wasn't a deus ex machina.
Perhaps the designers suffer from the Hollywood Sequel Syndrome: "If it's bigger and has more explosions, it has to be better!" I understand what you're saying, and your logic appears to be sound.
quote:
Wooly Rupert wrote:
They blasted a developed region off the map, to drop an already established nation into its place. That's nowhere near the same thing as prior racial introductions, and even if you don't like Mulhorand, it's still very much a deus ex machina way to go.
If Mulhorand somehow brought it down on themselves, with this new race springing up in the fallen nation, I could have bought that.
Deus ex machina rears its ugly head again. From what I know of the storyline of Mulhorand, this could indeed have been brought about in time by their actions. Does the official material we have thus far hint at more behind this transition? Maybe there is a further explanation we have not yet seen.
quote:
Wooly Rupert wrote:
I don't like having my sandbox shrunk down because someone else might not have played in the corner.
And if WotC did any amount of demographic checking (other than saying "piss on the old fans, let's see if we can get new ones by changing everything that was appealing for 20 years"), then they wouldn't have inflicted this crap on us.
I can't defend what isn't mine and what I have no facts on. It seems like a business decision that I have no choice in since it's not my business. I am merely a client. It happens to fit my sandbox, so I won't personally gripe.
quote:
Markustay wrote:
For me its the Time Jump more then anything else. With 10-15 years they could have made all their evil changes (the Spellplague only lasted 10, remember? And most changes were instant), and most of my old sourcebooks would still have been useful.
I'm in the same boat with you -- lots of source material and little to do with it. But, I trust in my abilities to fill in the gaps with my own what-if's where needed. I hate to think that there may be overly many of them [holes], but the alternative is less desirable to me.
quote:
Markustay wrote:
The changes were'nt bad unto themselves, it was the lack of quality/talent that went into their presentation. It is fairly apparent that those who designed the new FR were unfamiliar with the old one (and thats why they felt the need to destroy it).
I can't agree with this criticism. Rich Baker for one, has been involved in the Realms since at least 2001 when he was Creative Director (as listed in my Magic of Faerun 3.0 sourcebook). Unless that's a different RB.
To criticize the presentation before we actually get the FRCG seems a little premature. It may be all the bad things you suspect, and I'm open to that belief, but I'm not there yet. I do agree with Wooly Rupert's chain of logic, and since you cited his comments as shared by you, I think we're on the same page there.
quote:
Jorkens wrote:
You see, to me its the opposite. I love the Grey-box, Really like the 2ed set and am less than impressed by the 3ed. set. Its been going downhill for me for a long time. This only continues the trend from 3ed. which (generalizing here of course) did nothing for me.
In addition I dont like what I hear about 4ed. any more than I like the 3ed. I hate the Spellplague and cant stand the time progression.
To put it simply; I like Eds Realms and I like old TSR products. This new edition reminds me very little of any of these.
I suspected there might be some old grognards out there! 
I respect this position, but have to ask, "Are you planning on using 4th Edition rules?" That's open to anyone since the follow-up is, "If you're unhappy about 4E FR, but want to use 4th Edition rules, will you convert old source material to 4th?" And that seems to be in line with the Topic, hopefully.
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 20:01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
I respect this position, but have to ask, "Are you planning on using 4th Edition rules?" That's open to anyone since the follow-up is, "If you're unhappy about 4E FR, but want to use 4th Edition rules, will you convert old source material to 4th?" And that seems to be in line with the Topic, hopefully.
I plan on at least trying 4E.
The best way I can describe my concerns about 4E and the realms. Is imagine if you we're reading Lord of the Rings. And three quarters of the way through the book, Spider-man comes in to save day. Its wrong, it doesn't fit, it won't work.
Rule wise, just because they are trying to make the characters more like individual superheroes. Doesn't mean the rules have to be used that way, hopefully. And if they don't I've always got the pathfinder rules to fall back on.
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“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 20:02:33
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If the new and improved (my arse!) Realms suit you, fine by me. Just don't expect me to fall over backwards to buy into the "we wanted to make the Realms better" sham.
Better would've been some logical explanation, to basically everything that is being changed. Hell, if they had had one inkling about how to do things the logical way, they would've (maybe) settled to Ao decreeing that magic changes as he has seen what the struggle for control over this resource costs... would've been far more satisfactory than that Shar prevents another goddess of Magic to arise.
And don't get me started on Abeir being a sibling world to Toril (which it never was). They could have gone so many reasonable and definitely cool ways to change the Realms, but they chose the easy way...
Must not get anymore angry less I rant again...
Cheers |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 20:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
I respect this position, but have to ask, "Are you planning on using 4th Edition rules?" That's open to anyone since the follow-up is, "If you're unhappy about 4E FR, but want to use 4th Edition rules, will you convert old source material to 4th?" And that seems to be in line with the Topic, hopefully.
No, I have no plans of using the new rules. I would never DM with the 3ed. rules either, but if I where to be a player I would go with whatever rules the DM wanted to use. I like the old TSR rules for "D&D feel" and there are other systems (GURPS, Drakar och Demoner) that I would use if I wanted a less constrictive system.
As for using 4ed. Realms products; sure, if I found them interesting. I would not call it conversion though, more plundering and using it as I want, the rules have little to do with that. |
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Ladejarl
Seeker
Norway
55 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 20:47:04
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I think I'd like to see a reboot from the old Grey-box (DR1357 if my memory serves me) with no Time of Troubles instead of what we're getting.
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"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 21:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
[quote]Originally posted by IthilSummarising your post a bit here. You see, to me its the opposite. I love the Grey-box, Really like the 2ed set and am less than impressed by the 3ed. set. Its been going downhill for me for a long time. This only continues the trend from 3ed. which (generalizing here of course) did nothing for me.
In addition I dont like what I hear about 4ed. any more than I like the 3ed. I hate the Spellplague and cant stand the time progression.
To put it simply; I like Eds Realms and I like old TSR products. This new edition reminds me very little of any of these. That makes me so reactionary when it comes to this game, that I am in an even smaller minority than you.
Y'arrrgh! Let's gum our pureed beans and mock these whipper-snappers. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 21:16:32
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| Cut for multipost |
Edited by - capnvan on 12 Apr 2008 21:17:26 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 21:28:38
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| I don't think there is any cause to mock Jorkens for stating his preferences, especially when he was very careful to state that they were, indeed, his preferences. He didn't state any empirically, or say that the changes wouldn't serve someone, he stated his preference, and I can certainly see his point. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 22:29:23
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Yo, Capn... wanna mock me, too? I won't play in 4e Realms and up until maybe 2 years ago I was still playing 2nd edition. Come on, please, mock me...
Oh, and should I ever GM Star Wars again I will go with the d6 version which ended in 1997/98...maybe I can get some mocking now?
If you come in here, you should ... well, behave... if you have a problem with some point of lore, contest it. But if you have a problem with somebody's preference of game system, and it doesn't matter how long this person has been posting here (and Jorkens has been around for a while now!), you, Capn, mocking them, is not only a breach of etiquette, but also a show of your inability to accept other people's views.
If you wwanna play 4e or 1st edition or Gurps in the Realms, and it works for you, that's fine with me.
Can I please get some mocking now? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 00:22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Yo, Capn... wanna mock me, too? I won't play in 4e Realms and up until maybe 2 years ago I was still playing 2nd edition. Come on, please, mock me...
*snip*
If you come in here, you should ... well, behave... if you have a problem with some point of lore, contest it. But if you have a problem with somebody's preference of game system, and it doesn't matter how long this person has been posting here (and Jorkens has been around for a while now!), you, Capn, mocking them, is not only a breach of etiquette, but also a show of your inability to accept other people's views. *snip*
Y'arghhh! All apologies if ye misunderstood, matey. I'm on Jorkens side. I'm quite comfortable admitting that I'm old-school. And while I don't quite "gum my peas," I do struggle to understand the market that WOTC is aiming toward.
In short: the last thing I'm doing is mocking the old schoolers. The post you're questioning was intended as a cheer. Or, as the kids put it these days QFT. If it didn't come off well, all apologies. I can see where you might have considered it dismissive, but it's quite the opposite. |
Edited by - capnvan on 13 Apr 2008 00:29:28 |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 00:47:35
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| LOL. Quite the misunderstanding. I understood capnvan from the first. Poor li'l pirate. I thought he was directing the whipper-snapper comment at me by trying to enlist Jorkens into his piratic ways. Which I still thought was funny. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 01:23:34
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| As the first one to misunderstand, allow me to apologize. I was a bit hasty in my assessment, and I didn't mean to generate any ill-will. A round of zzar for the house . . . |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 05:51:18
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C'mon
Who eats pureed beans?
I prefer my mashed, of course. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 11:41:48
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Beans are only to be used with large amounts of chili, tomato and meat. Bread and coffee are more or less mandatory also.
And I did not take any offence from the post that started this. I do dislike the term gnodards, but I know that no offence was meant there either.
And thanks to this discussion I am now hungry. It must be the first time I have gotten that feeling from Candlekeep. |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 18:58:48
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Getting back on topic and referring to the podcast (#22), Bruce commented that the starting campaign and first adventure presented in the FRCG would be in Loudwater. Note to my fellow scribes, I'm interested in starting a new campaign, so this is relevant material for me. I have enough on the history of this town that had grown to about 8,000 residents in 3rd Edition. I am not really up-to-date on Realms novels that may have affected the Delimbiyr Vale (as referenced in the Silver Marches). Are there any updates?
There is some good information in The North boxed set (http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/thenorth.asp) specifically on Loudwater, including several notable locations. The WotC archives on the Realms include some tales of The Legacy of the Green Regent (from 2003) which is based in the Delimbiyr Vale, though I don't relish the idea of reading them all -- anything good to glean from them?
Thank you for any tips you can provide. 
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 00:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He also blames the sourcebooks and novels for destroying the Realms "sense of wonder".
If he did, that's odd, since WotC kept putting out novels AND sourcebooks. And Rich, Bruce, and Phil were each involved with both novels and sourcebooks (are they insulting themselves, there?).
quote:
I also like when he says "That is not our plan right now... except for the three novels I am writing..."
What did he say "wasn't the plan"? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Apr 2008 00:15:43 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 00:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
For myriad reasons, moving forward not the least of them. I can think of many things that have evolved and bettered over the years: cars, computers (most electronics), James Bond, movie technology (Weta anyone?), etc. Hey, I loved the Goldbox series of computer games on 5.25" disks, but did that stop me from playing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights? Heck no! I'm moving forward. At least for me, the new stuff is more fun.
No offense (seriously), but I'm a little weary of hearing "evolve" used as a synonym for "improve". That's not what "evolution" means. I know I'm not the only person who feels that way, either. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 00:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
I'm a little confused as to the source of angst against the new Realms. Is it the incorporation of 4th Edition? Is it the concept of the Spellplague? Is it the fast-foward? Is it the removal of (e-gads) Maztica? I mean, it's not like Wizards has re-written the history. "Hey Brian, you know all that work you put into GHotR? Yeah, we're not going to use that."
For me, it can all be summed up as "I liked the Realms the way they were before, and the changes make the setting too different."
There's no accounting for taste...and that goes for everybody. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Apr 2008 00:21:03 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 00:23:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
The articles thus far say that the north is largely untouched, geographically. Wouldn't that suggest that the majority of Realms players play in the north? If WotC did any amount of demographic checking, that's probably the case. So if that is true, can't we just ignore the massive changes far to the south in game-play? Of course, if you were running a campaign set in the Shaar with forays to Mulhorand and Halruaa, that's small consolation.
Well, yes...and that's why not everyone can easily "just ignore" what happened to the Realms outside one single geographic area. Some people, myself included, were intrigued by places like the Shining South. That, and I dislike the idea of mentally divorcing one area of Faerun from another. The North is not isolated from the other areas (especially not cosmopolitan areas like Waterdeep). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 00:37:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
I respect this position, but have to ask, "Are you planning on using 4th Edition rules?" That's open to anyone since the follow-up is, "If you're unhappy about 4E FR, but want to use 4th Edition rules, will you convert old source material to 4th?" And that seems to be in line with the Topic, hopefully.
No, I'd rather just use the 4E "core setting".
I am indeed interested in the 4E rules. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 03:02:40
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One of the things that could have sold me on the new Realms and that the people steering the ship understood the feel of the setting would have been to have actually used the Magister in the capacity that they should have been . . . when I first heard that the magic system was changing, I thought, "hey, this would be a good chance for the Magister to take center stage and pop around Faerun teaching wizards how to use the new magic system."
The problem is, the "concept" guys don't seem to worry about simple things like nuance, they wanted to sum all of this up quickly:
Spellplague + 100 years = New Forgotten Realms
There are several of their design objectives they could have implemented without the drastic measure that they took. I don't agree with all of them, but I probably could have dealt with them, had they done something more like this:
"Problem" = No Time to Change things: Move the campaign setting forward 10 years, allow most of the areas hit hard by the RSEs of 3rd edition to rest, but this gives time for "off camera" developments to happen.
"Problem" = Chosen of Mystra: "Mystra calls all of her Chosen to a secret place and for an unknown reason. There are many wild theories, but the only facts known are that the Chosen have not been confirmed to have been seen in Faerun for nearly 10 years.
Speculation ranges from the death of the Chosen and the appointing of new Chosen, to the Chosen being sent to the far ends of the Multiverse on a mission known only to them and their goddess, but the fact remains that they have been absent from the sight of Faerun for ten seasons."
Without killing them off, you shunt them out of the picture. If you hate them, you can imagine that they are all dead. If you love them, they can still be working behind the scenes, perhaps a bit more carefully due to whatever reason you might want to devise, but they don't get "nuked."
"Problem" = Explanation for the New Magic System: "After contesting with Shar over the creation of the Shadow Weave, Mystra finally manages to find a way to wrest the Shadow Weave from her enemy, and reabsorbs it into the Weave.
The resulting change in the nature of the Weave brought on by this merging changes the manner in which wizards relate to the Weave, and Mystra has to dispatch the Magister to aid in teaching wizards to access this power once again."
"Problem" = Mystra is Good Aligned: "Upon absorbing the Shadow Weave, the last vestiges of Mystra's humanity faded away, and a bit of the darkness of Shar seeped into her. She became like unto the Mystra of old, a more dispassionate guardian of the Weave than she was before."
"Problem" = Mystra meddles too much in Faerun: "After calling the Chosen to her, many of Mystra's faithful lost their connection to their deity, and her high priest no longer received visions of the Lady of Mysteries.
Azuth's faith adopted many of these into their ranks, and according to the Church's dogma, the only direct servant of Mystra still roaming Faerun at this time is the Magister.
Some in Azuth's faith have postulated that Mystra needed more time to repair and integrate the Weave after absorbing the Shadow Weave, while others posited that forces from beyond may have seeped into reality while the Weave was damaged."
The actual goddess that controls the Weave is not distant and removed, Azuth gets promoted as the God of Magic, but not the god in control of the Weave.
"Problem" = Too Many Gods: After ten years, you can easily have something already in place in Faerun run its course. A handful of gods are really popular, a few more are less popular, and most of the rest of Demigods serving them, without having to kill any of them off or conceive some twisted soap opera.
The worship of the gods is suppose to influence their power levels, so 10 years worth of time should be enough to recalibrate a few divine power levels and bump a lot of more recent gods back to demigod level, if it really important to do so.
"Problem" = Planar Structure: "After the Time of Troubles, Ao had the gods remove their domains from the planes they once resided in. He did this so that the gods would not embroil themselves so heavily in the politics of the planes.
Ao was still not happy with the level of interaction with foreign beings of power, and so, Ao shattered the connections to the old Outer Planes, sealed them away from Faerun's cosmology, and set the godly domains adrift in the Astral Sea, which he rerouted for his own use."
There really is no reason to change the Plane of Shadows or Faerie much at all, and why can't the cosmology be a little different for Faerun than the core, as long as all of the important parts are there?
My point is, they could have made changes, and done pretty much the same thing "mechanically" with 4e, and still not done things that I felt really ran counter to why I was a fan of the setting. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 14 Apr 2008 03:54:09 |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 03:17:48
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quote:
KnightErrantJr wrote:
One of the things that could have sold me on the new Realms and that the people steering the ship understood the feel of the setting would have been to have actually used the Magister in the capacity that they should have been . . . when I first heard that the magic system was changing, I thought, "hey, this would be a good chance for the Magister to take center stage and pop around Faerun teaching wizards how to use the new magic system."
That's an excellent observation, and a change I too would have welcomed. They [FR designers] cited the Chosen as being central to perception that opposes the Realms, but that does not (necessarily) include the role of the Magister. Unfortunately, since they wiped out the deity that "anointed" Magisters, that may mean the end of this very interesting position throughout the history of the Realms. That saddens me if they cast that role aside, because it still has potential. A Magister was never all-powerful. Too often the office changed hands very quickly as a usurper stepped up. It was such a wonderful enigma of the setting. |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 03:23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
For myriad reasons, moving forward not the least of them. I can think of many things that have evolved and bettered over the years: cars, computers (most electronics), James Bond, movie technology (Weta anyone?), etc. Hey, I loved the Goldbox series of computer games on 5.25" disks, but did that stop me from playing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights? Heck no! I'm moving forward. At least for me, the new stuff is more fun.
No offense (seriously), but I'm a little weary of hearing "evolve" used as a synonym for "improve". That's not what "evolution" means. I know I'm not the only person who feels that way, either.
No offense taken, I value all input when presented constructively. I'm certainly not one to debate semantics, but my intent was to equate "evolve" with "change" and thus included "bettered" alongside. My implication is, I try to not to allow what I love about D&D yesterday to prevent me from trying what's new in D&D tomorrow. Thank you for helping me clarify my position. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 07:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Basically, they are dumping two books on us, and moving on to the next 'victim' (Eberron). Its called 'take the money and run', and I for one don't see why I should invest in a setting that they already do not plan to support down the line.
Emphasis mine.
I think this is at the heart of the problem. Sadly it seems to be a business model more and more companies adopt. The software industry being a prime example of this. Not to come off as too much of a conspiracy theorist, I honestly think that people in both Hasbro and WotC have decided or been told to make money out of D&D no matter what.
So what if the Shattered Realms tanks? So what if D&D 4.0E tanks too? There's a sucker born each minute, and often these days his mommy and daddy buy him whatever his little heart desires. Is he honestly going to care if what mommy and daddy bought him this year is being supported next year? No, he'll have moved on the the next best thing that mommy and daddy can also buy for him. It's perfect economics, target the market with the most expendible income, and make sure you target that market over and over and over again. Supporting your own products does not jibe well with that.
And, on the flipside, even if they do not make money out of 4.0E, they will still be pleased. It would mean that they were right all along about a product that has been losing them money for years now. They can then move on to developing the next 'cool' thing to sell to the suckers of the world.
I said this on another forum, but will repeat it here. The best thing for us as hardcore fans of the current FR setting (with all its flaws) is for 4.0E to tank and tank badly. That will give a small ray of hope that the licences will be released by WotC and we as a community can possibly be the new buyers of those licenses. PayPal is a wonderful community tool afterall... |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 11:39:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Basically, they are dumping two books on us, and moving on to the next 'victim' (Eberron). Its called 'take the money and run', and I for one don't see why I should invest in a setting that they already do not plan to support down the line.
Emphasis mine.
I think this is at the heart of the problem. Sadly it seems to be a business model more and more companies adopt. The software industry being a prime example of this. Not to come off as too much of a conspiracy theorist, I honestly think that people in both Hasbro and WotC have decided or been told to make money out of D&D no matter what.
I'm going to disagree slightly - although, of course, I would agree that they've been told to make money - that's how "bidness" works! (And also, I'm hoping this amplifies on Ithil's question about the general negativity we exhibit towards 4E FRCS.)
I'm somewhat hoping that the biggest problem the developers have is one of public relations. I suspect that if someone took the last 8 or 9 months of announcements, blog posts, articles, etc. and collated it all, you'd have the start of a good, solid university-level class on how not to conduct a promotional campaign.
When I read comments along the lines of (to paraphrase) "no one here has played a campaign in the Realms for years, but we're redesigning and making big changes," as a fairly hardcore fan, I get nervous. When that's coupled with comments that amount to, "We're not even sure how anybody can game in the current Realms," I start nearing the point of taking offense.
When we're told that this Spellplague thing is the only way to move FR into the Fourth Edition, I cringe. When I hear that Eberron fans are being told that there will be essentially no changes to the setting because they're not necessary, I start getting downright angry.
When we get an article on DDi from a lead designer that's a fairly lame ripoff of a classic fairy tale, I'm reminded of the Sideshow Bob quote that ends, "so formulaic, it could have spewed from the powerbook of the laziest Hollywood hack." (Sideshow Bob's Last Gleaming)
When that same article shows almost no feel for either Realmslore or history, and even posits that Dalesfolk would willingly interact with a Zhentish mercenary group, I start thinking, these guys don't even care what we think.
Which I suspect is unfair - I assume (always a dangerous proposition, admittedly) that the designers have struggled to create the best possible update for the setting. Whether they have is a separate issue.
I can't say that I'm certain, but I'm under the impression that FR has the largest and most vociferous fan base. The way that WOTC has handled that fan base over the last year has been painful to watch. I see no overall direction, no indicators that there's a strong, guiding hand leading the development team both in writing the changes to the setting and promoting them to the fan base.
I mean, where's Chris Perkins to say, "hey, you know what, before you post that blog, why don't you *not* mention that you haven't played a Realms campaign in years." Or, "hey, you know, this is a little negative towards the existing product. Instead of telling our fans that they've been playing crap for years, how about we focus just on the good, exciting things that we're adding to the product?" Or, "Hey, Bruce, while I agree that the art will be fantastic, maybe you shouldn't lead with that as the #1 cool thing about the product. Maybe you should lead with how many great new role-playing hooks there are. Something that might actually apply to the game."
Instead, I see almost random, hodgepodge information sneaking out, seemingly without concern for the potential reaction. That's certainly not the way to pump up the existing fan base. It also doesn't bode well for the final product itself. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 12:44:34
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Here here! It's insane how the Wot-zi party has decided to "pump up" the FR fan base. It doesn't make any sense.
Currently, I'm running a small group that is right at that cusp of the Spellplague, and I'm so terribly wary or moving forward. Part of me wants to hold out hope that the explanations given in the new FRCS are no where near as idiotic as what's been presented, and part of me is somewhat of a realist.
There have been articles that swing my opinions in one way, namely with Brian presents something with Candlekeep in mind. But every time the "leads" open their mouths it's like some foul beast that cannot be named has decided to rouse from it's sleep of a thousand millennia, and open it's countless mouths to sing forth the end of days. It's pretty darn close to that. Why can't they be sensible? Then they spout off "Oh, and we've got Ed doing such and such." Like saying that they have Ed tied up in NDAs and "fluff work" with contracts and license agreements is supposed to lull our concerns into a sense of WoW-Enduced-Stupor ("How can you kill that which has no life?"- South Park WoW Episode)
I understand that Wot-zi has to pay the Hasbro God for the privilege of it's servitude. It is about money, after all. I would think, though, that you'd get more money if you didn't have every die-hard FR fan falling into convulsions and fits every moment some new potential FR fan asks about the FR-4e. I don't know... call me nuts, but I think word of mouth from long time fans is worth it's weight in gold.
Scene from GenCon 2008-
Potential Candlekeep Acolyte: "But is that where Drizzt is from?"
Learned Scribe: "Aaaaargh!" (Falls on floor, foam dropping from mouth, body spasming, wracked with anguish)
The Wot-zi Design Team Sirens: "Pennies, nickles, quarters, dimes, come to us while there's still time..." |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
Edited by - ShepherdGunn on 14 Apr 2008 12:45:53 |
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4e FR
