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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 13:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
I'm going to disagree slightly - although, of course, I would agree that they've been told to make money - that's how "bidness" works! (And also, I'm hoping this amplifies on Ithil's question about the general negativity we exhibit towards 4E FRCS.)
In essence, although words once again failed me in my previous post, I'm not against change or making money. I am just insulted by the way WotC is going about trying to make money out of 4.0E. To me, what I described could very well be exactly why things are happening the way they are. Have we been given any indication that the lunatics are not indeed running the asyllum?
What you have described so much more elloquently than I could, is exactly why I feel the way I do, without perhaps your bigger spark of optimism. In my experience, if something smells rotten, looks rotten and feels rotten, it generally is. If the general lack that has been displayed by those working on 4.0E is an indication, I have very little hope that 4.0E is going to end up as anything more than a 'sell and run'.
If it is simply bad practice, and the product is the next thing in D&D, I'd be the first to admit I was wrong to be skeptical. I'm not holding my breath though...  |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 13:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
One of the things that could have sold me on the new Realms and that the people steering the ship understood the feel of the setting would have been to have actually used the Magister in the capacity that they should have been . . . when I first heard that the magic system was changing, I thought, "hey, this would be a good chance for the Magister to take center stage and pop around Faerun teaching wizards how to use the new magic system."
The problem is, the "concept" guys don't seem to worry about simple things like nuance, they wanted to sum all of this up quickly:
Spellplague + 100 years = New Forgotten Realms
There are several of their design objectives they could have implemented without the drastic measure that they took. I don't agree with all of them, but I probably could have dealt with them, had they done something more like this:
"Problem" = No Time to Change things: Move the campaign setting forward 10 years, allow most of the areas hit hard by the RSEs of 3rd edition to rest, but this gives time for "off camera" developments to happen.
"Problem" = Chosen of Mystra: "Mystra calls all of her Chosen to a secret place and for an unknown reason. There are many wild theories, but the only facts known are that the Chosen have not been confirmed to have been seen in Faerun for nearly 10 years.
Speculation ranges from the death of the Chosen and the appointing of new Chosen, to the Chosen being sent to the far ends of the Multiverse on a mission known only to them and their goddess, but the fact remains that they have been absent from the sight of Faerun for ten seasons."
Without killing them off, you shunt them out of the picture. If you hate them, you can imagine that they are all dead. If you love them, they can still be working behind the scenes, perhaps a bit more carefully due to whatever reason you might want to devise, but they don't get "nuked."
"Problem" = Explanation for the New Magic System: "After contesting with Shar over the creation of the Shadow Weave, Mystra finally manages to find a way to wrest the Shadow Weave from her enemy, and reabsorbs it into the Weave.
The resulting change in the nature of the Weave brought on by this merging changes the manner in which wizards relate to the Weave, and Mystra has to dispatch the Magister to aid in teaching wizards to access this power once again."
"Problem" = Mystra is Good Aligned: "Upon absorbing the Shadow Weave, the last vestiges of Mystra's humanity faded away, and a bit of the darkness of Shar seeped into her. She became like unto the Mystra of old, a more dispassionate guardian of the Weave than she was before."
"Problem" = Mystra meddles too much in Faerun: "After calling the Chosen to her, many of Mystra's faithful lost their connection to their deity, and her high priest no longer received visions of the Lady of Mysteries.
Azuth's faith adopted many of these into their ranks, and according to the Church's dogma, the only direct servant of Mystra still roaming Faerun at this time is the Magister.
Some in Azuth's faith have postulated that Mystra needed more time to repair and integrate the Weave after absorbing the Shadow Weave, while others posited that forces from beyond may have seeped into reality while the Weave was damaged."
The actual goddess that controls the Weave is not distant and removed, Azuth gets promoted as the God of Magic, but not the god in control of the Weave.
"Problem" = Too Many Gods: After ten years, you can easily have something already in place in Faerun run its course. A handful of gods are really popular, a few more are less popular, and most of the rest of Demigods serving them, without having to kill any of them off or conceive some twisted soap opera.
The worship of the gods is suppose to influence their power levels, so 10 years worth of time should be enough to recalibrate a few divine power levels and bump a lot of more recent gods back to demigod level, if it really important to do so.
"Problem" = Planar Structure: "After the Time of Troubles, Ao had the gods remove their domains from the planes they once resided in. He did this so that the gods would not embroil themselves so heavily in the politics of the planes.
Ao was still not happy with the level of interaction with foreign beings of power, and so, Ao shattered the connections to the old Outer Planes, sealed them away from Faerun's cosmology, and set the godly domains adrift in the Astral Sea, which he rerouted for his own use."
There really is no reason to change the Plane of Shadows or Faerie much at all, and why can't the cosmology be a little different for Faerun than the core, as long as all of the important parts are there?
My point is, they could have made changes, and done pretty much the same thing "mechanically" with 4e, and still not done things that I felt really ran counter to why I was a fan of the setting.
Now this is some really good stuff! Any or all of these suggestions would have been reasonable developments, and their explanations make a lot more sense. If they'd implemented all of these changes, exactly as you wrote them, they wouldn't have had nearly as many people screaming for WotC blood.
I'd like to add an idea I had, for adding the dragonborn. Instead of the swapped nations idea, they could have brought in a smaller number, with a different racial name, and said they were refugees (or were summoned) from the same world the saurials came from -- the two races could be distantly related to each other.
Of course, all of this posits that the designers actually care about the setting. And despite their professed love of the Realms, very little of what we've been given thus far backs that up. It's fine for them to say that existing fans will be happy with Easter Eggs, but saying "we don't want to be beholden to what came before" is like a slap in the face to those same fans. They are so busy adding what they think are cool concepts that they are ignoring one major facet of what brought so many of us to the setting: the richness and level of detail, and the fact that everything and everyone in the setting has a history.
I know they've got some talent working on parts of the Shattered Realms (gods, I would love to get my hands on the Waterdeep info that Ed gave Brian to condense!), but it would have been better if those guys were the project leads, instead of just getting corners to work in. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 14:14:23
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Doh! I replied on KnightErrantJr's post before he finished his edit. I only read down to the
quote:
Spellplague + 100 years = New Forgotten Realms
So, let me second what WoolyRupert said. That was truly excellent material, and makes me really appreciate the contributions of this forum. 
quote:
Wooly Rupert wrote:
I'd like to add an idea I had, for adding the dragonborn. Instead of the swapped nations idea, they could have brought in a smaller number, with a different racial name, and said they were refugees (or were summoned) from the same world the saurials came from -- the two races could be distantly related to each other.
This too is a superb idea. One of Kuje's posts earlier in this thread cited Rich as stating something to the effect that "Dragonborn and saurials are quite different." He did not delve further into the "why." That's too bad; it does seem like a good fit for the race.
It's kind of wistful praise I'm offering, knowing it has no chance of surviving into official material. 
For those of us intending to buy the FRCG, mayhaps we can keep an eye out for holes that could allow us to pressure WotC into filling those holes with some of these great ideas. <need an emote for crossed fingers>
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 14:54:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
No offense taken, I value all input when presented constructively. I'm certainly not one to debate semantics, but my intent was to equate "evolve" with "change" and thus included "bettered" alongside. My implication is, I try to not to allow what I love about D&D yesterday to prevent me from trying what's new in D&D tomorrow. Thank you for helping me clarify my position.
You're welcome. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 14:57:00
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As a fan of saurials I'd still have to agree with Rich on this one. Saurials and Dragonborn, while both reptile-like are not similar at all. Saurials cannot speak, for one. They communicate through scent glands and emitters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
One of Kuje's posts earlier in this thread cited Rich as stating something to the effect that "Dragonborn and saurials are quite different." He did not delve further into the "why." That's too bad; it does seem like a good fit for the race.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 14:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now this is some really good stuff! Any or all of these suggestions would have been reasonable developments, and their explanations make a lot more sense. If they'd implemented all of these changes, exactly as you wrote them, they wouldn't have had nearly as many people screaming for WotC blood.
Agreed, KEJR's list was pretty good (and more reasonable than what we've seen so far), although I still need to be honest and say I would probably have still been upset.
Likely not AS upset though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Apr 2008 00:23:45 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 15:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As a fan of saurials I'd still have to agree with Rich on this one. Saurials and Dragonborn, while both reptile-like are not similar at all. Saurials cannot speak, for one. They communicate through scent glands and emitters.
Well, Wooly did suppose that they were distantly related. I think it still could work. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 15:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As a fan of saurials I'd still have to agree with Rich on this one. Saurials and Dragonborn, while both reptile-like are not similar at all. Saurials cannot speak, for one. They communicate through scent glands and emitters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
One of Kuje's posts earlier in this thread cited Rich as stating something to the effect that "Dragonborn and saurials are quite different." He did not delve further into the "why." That's too bad; it does seem like a good fit for the race.
Well, they could have been from the same planet (plane, mote in the astral sea or whatever) and it would have provided a sense of connectivity. There could have even been a Saurial prophecy that pointed towards the Dragonborn coming to Toril.
I think my biggest problem with what we've gotten of 4E is that I, or any number of the people here, have come up with better ideas and presentation for those ideas, than what we've seen. Knights post alone shows how relatively easy it would have been. It feels like Hollywood has invaded the Realms and we're getting T3 style presentation (apologies for those who liked T3  ).
And I really hope that this isn't hitting you personally Brian. I really think that your work is top notch and am very happy that you're working on the Realms, I just wish you didn't have editors.
Anyhow, I guess I could sum up the majority of my problems with a simple statement.
It is sad to me that, rather than look to older lore in order to guide the changes they wanted to make they've thrown out the Realms and put something different in its place.
I guess 100 years is pretty appropriate, reducing a wonderful body to a skeleton takes some time. |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 15:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As a fan of saurials I'd still have to agree with Rich on this one. Saurials and Dragonborn, while both reptile-like are not similar at all. Saurials cannot speak, for one. They communicate through scent glands and emitters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
One of Kuje's posts earlier in this thread cited Rich as stating something to the effect that "Dragonborn and saurials are quite different." He did not delve further into the "why." That's too bad; it does seem like a good fit for the race.
Admittedly, I'm not a huge fan of saurials nor do I hold extensive knowledge on them, so I will concede on my argument. I remember my first experience with Dragonbait in the Curse of the Azure Bonds computer game. It was prior to my reading the novel. I thought, "How can I smell baked bread over the stench of the Pit of Moander?" 
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 19:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
I want new stuff: new places, new villains, new factions, new good guys, new plotlines, and most of all, the new rules in 4th.
You know that most such setting elements in the current Realms haven't even been mentioned?quote:
I can think of many things that have evolved and bettered over the years: cars, computers (most electronics), James Bond, movie technology (Weta anyone?), etc.
Marketers like this analogy, but it's fallacious: fantasy worlds are creative works, not computer hardware. The Realms can only be bettered if Bruce Cordell & co. turn out to be better world-builders than Ed Greenwood: there's no impersonal mechanism that's going to do it.quote:
But...I've always viewed the gods of the Realms as overly-meddlesome.
They hardly act directly in Faerûn at all until the recent Avatar-inspired novel timeline. Those soap-opera gods are now folded into continuity by the Mystra death fiasco and the latest drow novels.quote:
I apologize for my ignorance on what's come before in the scrolls. I'm trying to get caught up, but there are quite a few stacks to search through! 
The only way to understand what the Wizards designers are doing is to read their comments scattered across several message boards, blogs and interviews. They're frank that fidelity to the spirit and continuity of the Realms is a lower priority than sticking to the setting elements, dynamics, and philosophy of the new D&D rules, brand and business plan; simplifying the Realms to draw in new players and to make life easier for new authors; appeasing factually incorrect criticisms; and other design goals that have nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms or those who understand and like it.
I think the talk of 'change' is misleading. The Realms isn't being changed, it's being discontinued and replaced with a hybrid derivative.quote:
Perhaps the designers suffer from the Hollywood Sequel Syndrome: "If it's bigger and has more explosions, it has to be better!"
Jim Butler admitted this thinking had set in when he was Realms brand manager some years back. It hasn't improved.
As thoroughly discussed on the Wizards.com board, many of the supposed problems were caused by Wizards' own abuses of the Realms: foregrounding of Chosen and gods over priesthoods, RSEs and the arms race, abandoning unreliable narration, catalogue-style FRCS that inadequately explained how things work, apparent failure to understand major setting elements, foreshortening diminishing mystery... Some of these things were noted in the promotional pieces for the 2001 FRCS and then perpetuated! Now, rather than ceasing these abuses, they're cited as pretexts for new ones. I struggle to see how a perceptive observer would see all this as anything except farce.quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Which I suspect is unfair - I assume (always a dangerous proposition, admittedly) that the designers have struggled to create the best possible update for the setting.
They're doing the best job they can of meeting their (largely stated) design goals, which aren't ours or the Realms'. |
Edited by - Faraer on 15 Apr 2008 02:41:29 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 20:47:54
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I'm wondering: is it design goal, or numbers to be met conjured up by some bean-counters?
They want "fresh" blood in the Realms, in terms of players/customers and writers. OK, I admit that I haven't been keeping up with my Realms-books for the last few months. I've read both Blackstaff and Ghostwalker, and I enjoyed both of them. Steven Schend is an old Realms-hand, but he's fresh blood when it comes to novels. Erik Scott de Bie is new. Both of them know how to handle the Realms! I'd assume that most freelancers do.
Why then this radical change? If the freelancers don't have any problem with the background and stuff... who does have a problem? Off the top of my head: Last Mythal brought the Tree of Souls to Myth Drannor... in all honesty, if you wanna write about elves in the Realms, Elaine's Evermeet is much akin to the bible. And one thing one usually doesn't forget is the entire Tree of Souls affair. Rich should've known... and the worst of it: Phil Athans, the EDITOR, had to know. If Phil didn't see that mistake he would basically jump up and down, screaming "Here! Here!" when I ask for an example of what an editor should not be.
So if the author who has been affiliated with the Realms since the early 1990s, missed that essential part, and the editor who obviously did not know about this essential part, I can only surmise that the real reason why this change has been brought up is neither the fans (or possible new fans), nor the new writers, but the very designers and editors who work for WotC and proclaim to love the Realms. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 22:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now this is some really good stuff! Any or all of these suggestions would have been reasonable developments, and their explanations make a lot more sense. If they'd implemented all of these changes, exactly as you wrote them, they wouldn't have had nearly as many people screaming for WotC blood.
Agreed, KEJR's lists was pretty good (and more reasonable than what we've seen so far), although I still need to be honest and say I would probably been upset.
Likely not AS upset though.
Its not what I would have done in a vacuum, of course, but if I were posed with the "problems" that were listed and told to "fix" them, its what I would have done to bridge the gap between the perceived problems and the existing fanbase. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 04:44:01
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I was just going to substitute the new Dragonborn race for the Kaasta - I already like their placement around the Sea of Salt better then a kingdom on the SoFS, and their FR back-story is better.
I was going to start a new thread about something again, but I don't want there to be dozens of 4e FR threads (as there are on the WotC boards).
I was thinking - their new target audience is obviously aimed pretty low. My 16 year old hates the cartoons, but my ten year old loves them (fart jokes?).
Trouble is, ten year olds don't read FR novels... in fact, they really don't read much at all (except maybe Harry Potter).
So, are they biting themselves in the butt with their new game plan? 
They want younger people to get into FR and D&D, and are risking their current fans to achieve that. Do you think maybe they've decided their 'creative talents' are better suited to the 'Young Adult' audience?
Because most of us older people who they no longer want as customers were the ones buying all those books, and most of the fans I know have no interest in reading about events a hundred years into the future.
I think they may have inadvertantly killed off their novel line. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 16:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
Getting back on topic and referring to the podcast (#22), Bruce commented that the starting campaign and first adventure presented in the FRCG would be in Loudwater. Note to my fellow scribes, I'm interested in starting a new campaign, so this is relevant material for me. I have enough on the history of this town that had grown to about 8,000 residents in 3rd Edition. I am not really up-to-date on Realms novels that may have affected the Delimbiyr Vale (as referenced in the Silver Marches). Are there any updates?
There is some good information in The North boxed set (http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/thenorth.asp) specifically on Loudwater, including several notable locations. The WotC archives on the Realms include some tales of The Legacy of the Green Regent (from 2003) which is based in the Delimbiyr Vale, though I don't relish the idea of reading them all -- anything good to glean from them?
Thank you for any tips you can provide. 
Well, if you've not read BLACKSTAFF from July 2006, there's a bit of a change roughly 110 miles due south of Loudwater inside the High Moor.
Steven of the Shameless Plug |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Edited by - Steven Schend on 16 Apr 2008 16:33:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 16:54:08
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A BIT OF A CHANGE?
May I now refer to you as "the master of understatement"?
BTW, NO plug coming from you is shameless - when you got it, flaunt it. 
So, without giving a whole lot of spoilers away, what kind of changes do you think may have happened to nearby Loudwater, if any, after the events of your novel?
Maybe I should have asked that in YOUR thread....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Apr 2008 16:56:12 |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 18:06:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
Getting back on topic and referring to the podcast (#22), Bruce commented that the starting campaign and first adventure presented in the FRCG would be in Loudwater. Note to my fellow scribes, I'm interested in starting a new campaign, so this is relevant material for me. I have enough on the history of this town that had grown to about 8,000 residents in 3rd Edition. I am not really up-to-date on Realms novels that may have affected the Delimbiyr Vale (as referenced in the Silver Marches). Are there any updates?
There is some good information in The North boxed set (http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/thenorth.asp) specifically on Loudwater, including several notable locations. The WotC archives on the Realms include some tales of The Legacy of the Green Regent (from 2003) which is based in the Delimbiyr Vale, though I don't relish the idea of reading them all -- anything good to glean from them?
Thank you for any tips you can provide.
Well, if you've not read BLACKSTAFF from July 2006, there's a bit of a change roughly 110 miles due south of Loudwater inside the High Moor.
Steven of the Shameless Plug
I have read Blackstaff, recently. I'll send you a note in your topic. And, anyone worthy of their own topic may plug away!
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Ladejarl
Seeker
Norway
55 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 19:31:05
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How to explain why Gnomes can no loger be player caracters?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Giant Space Hamsters will never die! And due to the Sellplague, there's now a nation of them living near what used to be the Great Rift.
All Gnomes left the Realms through a portal due to the hamster infestation?
Seriously though, how would you handle that one?
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"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world." |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 19:35:09
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Didn't the gnomes create big-ass wheels for the hamsters?
And isn't the Great Rift called the Great Wheel now? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 01:22:50
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| Gnomes can still be player characters if you use the racial traits found in the back of the 4E Monster Manual. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Ladejarl
Seeker
Norway
55 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 17:23:33
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One thing that remains the same.
Hamsters and wheels are good ideas though. We could be one step away from a Gnomish style industrial revolution. Hamsterelectric power, endless possibilities. |
"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world." |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 17:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ladejarl
One thing that remains the same.
Hamsters and wheels are good ideas though. We could be one step away from a Gnomish style industrial revolution. Hamsterelectric power, endless possibilities.
*Looks at Wooly* and we just so happen to have a GIANT hampster right here in the Keep! |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 19:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Ladejarl
One thing that remains the same.
Hamsters and wheels are good ideas though. We could be one step away from a Gnomish style industrial revolution. Hamsterelectric power, endless possibilities.
*Looks at Wooly* and we just so happen to have a GIANT hampster right here in the Keep!
Indeed. And he's a titanic fellow known for squashing gnomes. Especially ones who enslave his people! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Apr 2008 19:05:29 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 19:57:05
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| Who wants to enslave 'em? Those wheels do look nice, don't they, Wooly? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 18:31:57
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So, in conclusion, what will people do?
Read the new Realms, suck it up, and deal? (which also means you'd have to read 4E material, play a 4E game, and deal even if you don't like 4E but still care about the Realms and were hoping to take info from 4E Realms to use in 3E).
Or abandon it, stick with what came before and don't put a single cent into the upcoming Twilight Zone Forgotten Realms?
There's no middle ground and it's an absolute either way. Like it was said many times before, this will make or break the Realms (and, as for 4E entirely, D&D itself).
Personally, the Realms is dead to me beyond 3rd Edition. I will read the material, to stay out of pure ignorance, but not a single cent will be put into it (message boards, wikipedia, and the occasional browsing for a few hours at bookstores like B&N or Borders will help with that).
It comes down to the fact that the Realms (and D&D entirely, of course) does not belong in a mega-corporation's hands. It never was meant to, it never did before WotC/Hasbro, and it never should have. It was meant to be in the hands of idealists, not capitalists.
If only TSR cleaned up their act immensely, maybe we'd all still be enjoying the Realms and D&D the way it should stay... |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 18:35:24
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Well said Razz.
You echo my thoughts exactly. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 19:54:38
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Give me a break.
I will be on the middle ground if I feel like any of the 4ed. material is interesting. Some of us did not generally like 3ed. either, but we still found things of interest. I did it with the 3ed. stuff and I will do the same with this. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 00:46:14
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| With all the GSL discussion at ENworld (which I am still reading) I wonder if the Realms cannot be utilized by 3rd party companies now, as it seems they can also use IP and PI |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 01:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
With all the GSL discussion at ENworld (which I am still reading) I wonder if the Realms cannot be utilized by 3rd party companies now, as it seems they can also use IP and PI
Hmm? How'd that work? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 01:27:26
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Eh, I'm betting they will still have the standard "proper names/places our ours to use" policy, but they might allow you to at least refer to, say, drow as PCs or monsters in the FR books that aren't in the Monster Manual, but not refer to any places in the Realms, for example.
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 03:06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
So, in conclusion, what will people do?
Read the new Realms, suck it up, and deal? (which also means you'd have to read 4E material, play a 4E game, and deal even if you don't like 4E but still care about the Realms and were hoping to take info from 4E Realms to use in 3E).
Or abandon it, stick with what came before and don't put a single cent into the upcoming Twilight Zone Forgotten Realms?
There's no middle ground and it's an absolute either way. Like it was said many times before, this will make or break the Realms (and, as for 4E entirely, D&D itself).
Personally, the Realms is dead to me beyond 3rd Edition. I will read the material, to stay out of pure ignorance, but not a single cent will be put into it (message boards, wikipedia, and the occasional browsing for a few hours at bookstores like B&N or Borders will help with that).
It comes down to the fact that the Realms (and D&D entirely, of course) does not belong in a mega-corporation's hands. It never was meant to, it never did before WotC/Hasbro, and it never should have. It was meant to be in the hands of idealists, not capitalists.
If only TSR cleaned up their act immensely, maybe we'd all still be enjoying the Realms and D&D the way it should stay...
"In conclusion" makes it sound like we have all the facts in order to make an informed decision. I, for one, do not have all the facts and therefore offer no final judgement.
"and D&D entirely, of course" is an absolutist viewpoint. I liked 3rd Edition much better than 2nd. In fact, while playing 2nd Edition all those years I frequently went back to the Rules Cyclopedia for D&D. I never did so once 3rd and 3.5 released. WotC produced a better game with better mechanics. The Realms have undergone a lot of changes over the years under TSR and WotC. However, with contributions by non-staff members like Ed Greenwood, Steven Schend, Brian James, and countless others, I believe the dream has been and will be kept alive.
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4e FR
