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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Nimriel
Seeker
Sweden
51 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They are a joke, really... the only recent one that wasn't a thinly-disguised ad for 4e was The Headless Zhent.
It was actually The Zhent Headless Horseman |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hope... hope is the carrot that dangles before the donkey's head so he keeps moving...
no...that would be bribery.
Hope is a form of bribery.  |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:33:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Um...how so, if the donkey never reaches the carrot?
because the donkey can't sue for breach of bribery. besides, the donkey doesn't know he can't get the carrot. if he did, he would never move foward. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
We're drifting again folks. Let's try to keep it focused on the 4e Realmslore, okay? 
Sorry about that. I'll try to stay on task. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Ladejarl
Seeker
Norway
55 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 21:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think you're wrong on that one.
Third Edition= Its always been that way.
Fourth Edition= It doesn't matter what it used to be like . . . oh, and Spellplague.
By Beshabas apple heinie... |
"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world." |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
758 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 08:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Nimriel
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They are a joke, really... the only recent one that wasn't a thinly-disguised ad for 4e was The Headless Zhent.
It was actually The Zhent Headless Horseman
I like to compile the lore WotC provides that I'd like to keep to PDF, and this was the only case where I made sure to search and replace first. My PDF document now proudly states:
"The Headless Zhent
Realmslore
by Bruce R. Cordell"
I bet Bruce never even knew he wrote that one...   |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 12:00:20
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Episode 22 of the D&D podcast is up. Rich and Bruce are being interviewed about the 4e Realms.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pod/20080411e22
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 20:52:24
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First off - does ANYONE think these are real interviews? That they are not carefully scripted advertisements? Let ME Interview them. 
A few things 'jumped out' at me -
Rich Baker uses the term 'Evolution' to describe the new realms... 
I supppose that's true... if you think the Dark Ages were an 'Evolution' over the classical period...
He also blames the sourcebooks and novels for destroying the Realms "sense of wonder". 
And goes on to talk about his (and other authors) "Carefully researched and meticulous Storytelling". I'm fairly certain these guys DO NOT read anything they themselves don't write. It was painfully obvious Mr. Baker never read Evermeet: Isle of Elves.
Bruce Cordell seems to think the Realms needed something for people to get 'excited about again'. I would definately say most of us are 'excited', much in the way an angry mob is 'excited'. The fact that he and others seems to think the level of detail was a negative aspect is VERY disturbing. 
I also like when he says "That is not our plan right now... except for the three novels I am writing..."
Here we go again.
Didn't Rich just say this is what caused all the problems for the old Realms? <enter 5th edition>
I like when he says "EVERYTHING you need to know about Impiltur can fit on two pages..." Where's George? I can feel his eye twitching..... 
They also make it QUITE CLEAR that EVERYTHING that appears in CORE WILL indeed appear in the Realms. Its nice to know the Realms has become the 'Town Dump'.
They are assuming that people will actually like EVERY SINGLE IDEA they come up with. Looking back at all the truly 'bad ideas' we have seen in the past (not just 3e, to be fair), it's pretty frightening to think that ALL OF IT will have a place in the Realms.
There was some real garbage in some of those splatbooks. 
RB also says that the new mechanics support the novels better (rather then the other way around). At least we can see some honesty here about what was REALLY behind the changes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 21:33:13
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Well, I can understand that the Realms need to fit the new system. Not that I think the new system is that brilliant or anything, but it (the Realms) are WotC's IP, they wanna make money on it, and thus have to update it. No foul in that, at all.
But that is where my understanding ends!
The rest of what they said was a bunch of BS. Seriously.
If Bruce Cordell says he has played in the Realms since the Grey Box and loves it, why would he change it? Why would he even want to change it? If I love someone, or something for that matter, I love wholly and don't try to frankenstein my even better bride, so to speak.
I agree with Markus on that Rich prolly didn't read Evermeet: A Novel...why? Tree of Souls anyone? That has been retconned in GHotR.
If they say it will appeal to the fans nontheless, I think they are gravely mistaken. Why? Because we do not frankenstein our loves to be even better... we do not see the need to do so, either... cuz that is what love's all about.
They made the change to make it easier on themselves. They didn't take the thorny and, in the end, more rewarding path. They took the quick way out. And they failed.
It would have been much, much easier for them to let Ed, Eric, Steven and a whole bunch of other people (including many of us here at Candlekeep) work with the new system and adapt it to the Realms in a reasonable and LOGICAL fashion.
I ranted about this a couple of times already, so I won't do so again. I just shake my head and move on, with my Realms. Because, after all, why should I toss money to a company that doesn't give a frak about what I as a customer want. I rather toss my money, cent by cent, into the sewers, at least this way I get a splash... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 21:38:49
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quote:
Markustay wrote:
First off - does ANYONE think these are real interviews? That they are not carefully scripted advertisements?
Maybe not so much scripted, but probably rehearsed or well-prepared. I wouldn't want to listen to a lot of "Hmm, let me think about that for a few minutes." Then we hear the background music as filler.
quote:
Markustay wrote:
And goes on to talk about his (and other authors) "Carefully researched and meticulous Storytelling". I'm fairly certain these guys DO NOT read anything they themselves don't write. It was painfully obvious Mr. Baker never read Evermeet: Isle of Elves.
I don't agree with this criticism. I don't know about the Evermeet issue, but he explicitly stated that he used several of Steven Schend's earlier works for research. I believe he cited two 2nd Edition supplements.
quote:
Markustay wrote:
Bruce Cordell seems to think the Realms needed something for people to get 'excited about again'. I would definately say most of us are 'excited', much in the way an angry mob is 'excited'. The fact that he and others seems to think the level of detail was a negative aspect is VERY disturbing.
I love your comment about the angry mob, and I think Bruce may be trying to sell the change internally by making this comment. As for the "level of detail" being a problem, I can agree with Bruce under specific circumstances. DMs wishing to run a new campaign, or DMs new to the game face a problem of information overload in the current Realms. Sure, they can get by with just using the FRCG, but it probably feels incomplete given everything else available. WotC's plan to release 100 years out means they can retain everything as history, but release new materials that contain all new stuff. Plus they don't have to worry about conversion of the old material into 4th. A new DM could settle for the GHotR and the new FRCG, and be set for a while.
quote:
Markustay wrote:
I also like when he says "That is not our plan right now... except for the three novels I am writing..."
Yeah, my first thought was, "Plans change."
quote:
Markustay wrote:
I like when he says "EVERYTHING you need to know about Impiltur can fit on two pages..."
I hope everything I need to start a 4th Edition campaign in Impiltur will be in the new FRCG. If I want back-story, I can expect to find it elsewhere.
quote:
Markustay wrote:
They are assuming that people will actually like EVERY SINGLE IDEA they come up with. Looking back at all the truly 'bad ideas' we have seen in the past (not just 3e, to be fair), it's pretty frightening to think that ALL OF IT will have a place in the Realms.
There was some real garbage in some of those splatbooks.
Yes, no offense to some of the authors still around, but I agree on those splatbooks. Pitiful, some of them. Or maybe it's just that they don't stand up to time very well.
I have my own perception of WotC's ideas, and I certainly don't like all of them. But I have found it very easy to maneuver around what I don't like, and I'm sure I'll be able to do the same in 4th.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 22:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
I hope everything I need to start a 4th Edition campaign in Impiltur will be in the new FRCG. If I want back-story, I can expect to find it elsewhere.
Not everything you need on Impiltur will be in the FRCG. 2 pages aren't enough if you need level of detail. Players may ask about a king or a queen from ancient (pre-Smellplaque) times, and then you are stuck.
Where will you find the backstory? You are lucky if you have the Dragon magazine with all the info. Or you may already possess most of what has gone before 4e, but in that case why ask the question.
Getting OOP material will become more difficult. Sure, you may get lucky on ebay, but if you aren't...what then?
Yes, all that background material from the past eras isn't necessary to play at any time, after all you rund the world, but then I have to ask why even bother with the purchse of a new edition if you already have what you need.
Wizards would have been better off doing a classic Realms project and a new Realms project for new players. Because if they start referencing to earlier stuff that you don't own in the new Realms you are as much screwed as if they hadn't made the change and still didn't own the books etc. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 22:22:35
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| I don't understand how the level of detail sold the setting for 20 years, and yet that same level of detail is now being perceived as a problem... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2008 22:25:43 |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 22:33:42
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quote:
Mace Hammerhand wrote:
Not everything you need on Impiltur will be in the FRCG. 2 pages aren't enough if you need level of detail. Players may ask about a king or a queen from ancient (pre-Smellplaque) times, and then you are stuck.
Where will you find the backstory? You are lucky if you have the Dragon magazine with all the info. Or you may already possess most of what has gone before 4e, but in that case why ask the question.
Getting OOP material will become more difficult. Sure, you may get lucky on ebay, but if you aren't...what then?
Yes, all that background material from the past eras isn't necessary to play at any time, after all you rund the world, but then I have to ask why even bother with the purchse of a new edition if you already have what you need.
Two pages are not enough room to detail everything that is already known about Impiltur. Very true, just like 6 pages is not enough to fully describe Waterdeep [from the podcast]. I'm not suggesting that the new FRCG will replace everything that has come before. Far be it! I will lean on what I already own (which is a lot), but the new book will hopefully provide a good summary to begin new campaigns. I think that's the intent.
Why do I want to buy the new edition? I want to start a new campaign for players that are familiar with the Realms. I want new stuff: new places, new villains, new factions, new good guys, new plotlines, and most of all, the new rules in 4th.
Rich and Bruce addressed my overarching question: we're starting in Loudwater. Good, I have somewhere to begin my research like in The North boxed set, Silver Marches or even the old 1st Edition Savage Frontier. Heck, maybe I might even find something on Loudwater in Gateway to the Savage Frontier (goldbox game).
I'm eager to know what happened to Loudwater and Llorkh in the interim, have the Zhents taken over? Has the Empire of Shade encroached into the Graypeaks? Is there anything new in the Southwood? I hope these and other questions get answered. That's what makes the new FRCG exciting for me.
quote:
Mace Hammerhand wrote:
Wizards would have been better off doing a classic Realms project and a new Realms project for new players. Because if they start referencing to earlier stuff that you don't own in the new Realms you are as much screwed as if they hadn't made the change and still didn't own the books etc.
Yes, I agree that referencing older materials may work them into a corner, and I'm interested to see how they avoid it. The Realms is a place steeped deep in history and concrete facts. This site is a fine testament to that.
As for a "classic Realms" project, why not start one here? There are more than enough qualified individuals to contribute.
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 22:36:22
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Personally, there's never been "too much detail" for any friggin game I've ever run.
Not once.
Point in fact, the problem that I've had is "not enough detail".
Making a monster, for me, is far easier than making up a town. Takes a fraction of the time, if that. I'm not publishing these monsters, if I were it'd take more time, but for running a game I'll take a book of cities over a book of monsters every time.
As for running Impiltur on two pages of material. . . ummm. . . that's not enough at all. If I'm running my players in dungeons in Impiltur then sure, but if I'm running a campaign in Impiltur then I'll need some details or I'll end up having to make every damned thing up.
Dungeons are easy.
Nations are hard. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 22:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Personally, there's never been "too much detail" for any friggin game I've ever run.
Not once.
Point in fact, the problem that I've had is "not enough detail".
Making a monster, for me, is far easier than making up a town. Takes a fraction of the time, if that. I'm not publishing these monsters, if I were it'd take more time, but for running a game I'll take a book of cities over a book of monsters every time.
As for running Impiltur on two pages of material. . . ummm. . . that's not enough at all. If I'm running my players in dungeons in Impiltur then sure, but if I'm running a campaign in Impiltur then I'll need some details or I'll end up having to make every damned thing up.
Dungeons are easy.
Nations are hard.
QFT. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 01:22:12
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| I think you guys are missing the point. How many pages were devoted to Impiltur in earlier edition campaign sourcebook? |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 01:26:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
If Bruce Cordell says he has played in the Realms since the Grey Box and loves it, why would he change it? Why would he even want to change it? If I love someone, or something for that matter, I love wholly and don't try to frankenstein my even better bride, so to speak.
Oh dear Lord (Ao?)! Yes! As someone who has actually gamed in the Realms since the Ole' Grey Box (how I miss it so, I can't believe I let it out of my hands...), I've been unhappy with far too many of the changes over the... hmm. Well, almost 2 decades. Hmm.
Still. The point remains - if you claim that you loved the Old Grey Box, and yet you start out a post on the 4E Realms by stating that the art is fantastic, well, I'm gonna have to say that you didn't really love the OGB. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 01:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't understand how the level of detail sold the setting for 20 years, and yet that same level of detail is now being perceived as a problem...
Wooly (and pardon the familiarity), I believe part of your/our problem may just be that we have been familiar with the setting for 20 years. As in, the setting is already older than the current target market.
Let's be somewhat fair - back in my/our day, I spent hours pouring over the latest manual coming out of TSR before I'd even think of breaking it into actual play.
Today's target market expects to be up and kicking tail within a few minutes of breaking the cellophane on their latest purchase.
Which to me says, hey, have great (wicked cool! Or am I already too late) art and an easy introduction! And get them hooked! Radical!
My concern is, obviously, that I sound as ridiculous as I fear 4E FR will be. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 02:19:46
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quote:
Brian R. James wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. How many pages were devoted to Impiltur in earlier edition campaign sourcebook?
Thank you Brian for being more concise than I.
I admit, I liked the old gray box, I loved the hardcover Forgotten Realms Adventures book from 2nd (still have one), and I really loved the 3rd Edition FRCG. It's a trend that works in my favor as I anticipate the new one.
quote:
Mace Hammerhand wrote:
If Bruce Cordell says he has played in the Realms since the Grey Box and loves it, why would he change it?
For myriad reasons, moving forward not the least of them. I can think of many things that have evolved and bettered over the years: cars, computers (most electronics), James Bond, movie technology (Weta anyone?), etc. Hey, I loved the Goldbox series of computer games on 5.25" disks, but did that stop me from playing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights? Heck no! I'm moving forward. At least for me, the new stuff is more fun.
I'm a little confused as to the source of angst against the new Realms. Is it the incorporation of 4th Edition? Is it the concept of the Spellplague? Is it the fast-foward? Is it the removal of (e-gads) Maztica? I mean, it's not like Wizards has re-written the history. "Hey Brian, you know all that work you put into GHotR? Yeah, we're not going to use that."
I've realized I'm in the minority, and I'm not trying to attack opinions; just gain insight into my fellow gamers.
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 02:47:58
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Old Grey Box - Impiltur gets less than half a page.
2nd edition Campaign Setting - Impiltur gets less than half a page.
Forgotten Realams Adventures - scattered, minor references to Impiltur.
3rd Edition FRCS - slightly more than a page on Impiltur.
Come on people - not everything the designers say is poisoned bile from the gall bladder of Demogorgon. |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 03:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I think you guys are missing the point. How many pages were devoted to Impiltur in earlier edition campaign sourcebook?
That's disingenuous. And worse, you know it! It's a gigantic world - there's never been enough detail to run a full, true-to-the-canon Realms campaign in any of the sourcebooks.
It was always the expectation, and, I'd suggest, intention, to cover the various areas of the Realms in regional sourcebooks.
The Realms publishing experiment, IIRC, really began with Darkwalker on Moonshae. And then you had the Old Grey Box. And then you had FR1 & FR2. And then suddenly you had, in response to demand, FR3-15, and beyond.
It's always been about what's caught the buyer's eye. The FRCS, and the like, have always been introductions to the larger world of (Abeir)-Toril. The fact that individual areas have not been covered sufficiently has nothing to do with their regional "worthiness." It's about what sellable. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 03:09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Old Grey Box - Impiltur gets less than half a page.
2nd edition Campaign Setting - Impiltur gets less than half a page.
Forgotten Realams Adventures - scattered, minor references to Impiltur.
3rd Edition FRCS - slightly more than a page on Impiltur.
Come on people - not everything the designers say is poisoned bile from the gall bladder of Demogorgon.
It's not about Impiltur. Or about page counts. Hell, in FRCS 2E, Waterdeep had 4 pages. But here's a concern: supposedly, we're only getting updates, outside of DDi, once a year per setting. Which means that we get the Player's Guide and the Campaign Guide to Faerun, and that's it until, what, 2010, at best?
So yeah. Based on what I've seen so far on DDi, I'd like a lot more in the 4E FRCS if Hasbro/WOTC would like me to buy it.
If I had an expectation that I'd be receiving regular updates, at least as prolific as WOTC offered pre-Hasbro buyout, (beyond what I've seen so far in DDi) then I might be viewing this differently. I don't have that belief. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 03:31:01
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quote:
capnvan wrote:
It's not about Impiltur. Or about page counts. Hell, in FRCS 2E, Waterdeep had 4 pages. But here's a concern: supposedly, we're only getting updates, outside of DDi, once a year per setting. Which means that we get the Player's Guide and the Campaign Guide to Faerun, and that's it until, what, 2010, at best?
So yeah. Based on what I've seen so far on DDi, I'd like a lot more in the 4E FRCS if Hasbro/WOTC would like me to buy it.
If I had an expectation that I'd be receiving regular updates, at least as prolific as WOTC offered pre-Hasbro buyout, (beyond what I've seen so far in DDi) then I might be viewing this differently. I don't have that belief.
I can relate to that. Thank you capnvan, for your insight.
I too am disappointed with the amount of decent content in DDi, but I'm hoping that it's just because they've tied up everyone in getting 4th edition DDi material ready. So, I'm witholding final judgement on that.
As for a yearly sourcebook instead of monthly or a frequency of "whenever we can release one," I may be for it after I see the first one. All those hardcovers are getting pricey. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 03:41:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ithil
quote:
Mace Hammerhand wrote:
If Bruce Cordell says he has played in the Realms since the Grey Box and loves it, why would he change it?
For myriad reasons, moving forward not the least of them. I can think of many things that have evolved and bettered over the years: cars, computers (most electronics), James Bond, movie technology (Weta anyone?), etc. Hey, I loved the Goldbox series of computer games on 5.25" disks, but did that stop me from playing Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights? Heck no! I'm moving forward. At least for me, the new stuff is more fun.
I'm a little confused as to the source of angst against the new Realms. Is it the incorporation of 4th Edition? Is it the concept of the Spellplague? Is it the fast-foward? Is it the removal of (e-gads) Maztica? I mean, it's not like Wizards has re-written the history. "Hey Brian, you know all that work you put into GHotR? Yeah, we're not going to use that."
I've realized I'm in the minority, and I'm not trying to attack opinions; just gain insight into my fellow gamers.
Moving forward isn't the problem. What is the problem is that many of the changes we know about seem to have little logic to them, either internal or external, and the sheer magnitude of the changes. Not only that, but some of the changes seem to be purely gratuitous.
I like change in a setting. It's one of the reasons I got into the Realms, and got away from Dragginglance -- the Realms changed, while Dragginglance didn't. But many of these changes seem to be turning the Realms into a wholly different beast than what we fell in love with.
I can dig a change that makes sense in the setting. But blasting away entire nations and dropping in countries from elsewhere is not something that makes sense. A portal opening somewhere, letting a small group of dragonborn in, I could have readily accepted. Mulhorand disappearing, to be replaced by a nation dominated by a race named after something that they despise, doesn't make sense. Deific struggles make sense. Divine soap operas do not. And so on.
For many of us, the changes are too profound, too abrupt, and lack internal logic. And that's why we are screaming. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 04:22:26
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True, the page counts to various areas in the main campaign setting product have remained static notwithstanding the edition, but they were followed by products that did provide the level of detail necessary to really assist a DM and player.
What will 4E bring for the Realms in terms of regional sourcebooks? Given the 3E team's attitude to regional sourcebooks towards the end of the tenure of that edition, I'm not confident that there will be much if any joy in this regard.
The Swordsage
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Ithil
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 04:36:48
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quote:
Wooly Rupert wrote:
Moving forward isn't the problem. What is the problem is that many of the changes we know about seem to have little logic to them, either internal or external, and the sheer magnitude of the changes. Not only that, but some of the changes seem to be purely gratuitous.
I like change in a setting. It's one of the reasons I got into the Realms, and got away from Dragginglance -- the Realms changed, while Dragginglance didn't. But many of these changes seem to be turning the Realms into a wholly different beast than what we fell in love with.
I can dig a change that makes sense in the setting. But blasting away entire nations and dropping in countries from elsewhere is not something that makes sense. A portal opening somewhere, letting a small group of dragonborn in, I could have readily accepted. Mulhorand disappearing, to be replaced by a nation dominated by a race named after something that they despise, doesn't make sense. Deific struggles make sense. Divine soap operas do not. And so on.
For many of us, the changes are too profound, too abrupt, and lack internal logic. And that's why we are screaming.
Thank you for your clarification in that regard. My gaming group and I have had many the same discussion about the stagnation or fixed nature of "Dragginglance." And I certainly see and understand the frustration behind the divine soap opera. It's a deus ex machina in every sense of the matter, and that's an annoyance to players.
But...I've always viewed the gods of the Realms as overly-meddlesome. And Cyric has been a timebomb since day one. So, really you can't say, "I didn't see that coming," but you're justified in exclaiming, "I didn't expect it to do that much damage!" 
If I may be so bold as to offer up a few possible parallels or precedents in the past for sweeping changes.
Halruaa - a sizable nation of arcanists is wiped out, including their territory. It's happened before in the Realms at Karsus' Folly. Miyeritar's destruction. Imaskar's demise. I'll throw in another blast from the past -- Alphatia's destruction at the end of Wrath of the Immortals. Granted, the latter is not such a great example since the Mystara setting didn't really survive long after that. 
Dragonborn - This is a tough one for me to explain away, especially since my gaming group has very little interest in the race anyway. So, I'm kind of on your side on this one, unless the full release can convince me otherwise. Although I can still call on a precedent with the orcgate wars of -1056DR. Sure, they weren't the first orcs in the Realms, but they were a different breed. Prior to that you have the Imaskari appearing bringing their Mulan slaves. Go figure that the dragonborn fall into the gap left by some of the Mulan.
Mulhorand/Unther - This area was just getting interesting to me though I've never actually campaigned there, only read about it. But they came to the fore with quite a bang too, especially when their gods broke through the barrier to enter Faerun. Going with a bang kind of seems fitting to me.
Maztica - You're on your own here. I never liked it, and I'm not sorry to see it go. But, this sort of reminds me of the creation of the Hollow World after Nithia screwed things up.
The articles thus far say that the north is largely untouched, geographically. Wouldn't that suggest that the majority of Realms players play in the north? If WotC did any amount of demographic checking, that's probably the case. So if that is true, can't we just ignore the massive changes far to the south in game-play? Of course, if you were running a campaign set in the Shaar with forays to Mulhorand and Halruaa, that's small consolation.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 06:30:18
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For me its the Time Jump more then anything else. With 10-15 years they could have made all their evil changes (the Spellplague only lasted 10, remember? And most changes were instant), and most of my old sourcebooks would still have been useful.
All the century timejump did was obliterate the usefulness of the old FR material - Not only did all the NPCs change, but so did the towns and even some nations. The old books have become 'history', and nothing more. There was no real reason for that, except to force us to buy new books (which we have done in the past - I have three editions worth of Thay material to prove it). I don't believe for a second a century was neccessary, except for some business-based decision that has more to do with the designers needs. If the 4e mechanics will fit fine in Eberron with almost no changes to the setting, then it just doesn't make sense that the changes to FR needed to be so drastic.
If we got a page and half on Impiltur in the 3e FRCS, that was all fine and good, because I new other places I could find the info I needed, or in the case of other regions (Shining South, Old Empires, Unapproachable East) I could wait until the more comprehensive books were released.
In 4e, what we get in the FRCG is the TOTAL SUM of everything we know about the Realms. I understand they wanted to 'level the playing field' for old-timers and newbs alike, but now people don't even have older resources to work with (because EVERYTHING has changed). And since they aren't planning any regional books, we must rely on the DDi for any future Realmslore... which hasn't even lived up to being a replacement for Dragon and Dungeon magazines, let alone all the regional books we used to get.
Basically, they are dumping two books on us, and moving on to the next 'victim' (Eberron). Its called 'take the money and run', and I for one don't see why I should invest in a setting that they already do not plan to support down the line.
Especially when I have three editions worth of FR books that are compatible with one another, and contain enough Realmslore to keep me going until the end of time. Not to mention we have Ed still providing answers to all our questions about the old Realms right here at CK. Why would anyone want to trade in their old, robust setting for one that will never amount to more then an 'empty shell'?
Oh... and I'd take a 64˝ Mustang over a brand new one any day of the week. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 06:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I think you guys are missing the point. How many pages were devoted to Impiltur in earlier edition campaign sourcebook?
It's a persistent problem I've had with the game since I started to think about things other than killing this or that.
And I don't think the old lore developed how the Kingdom really worked.
Well, that's not right (well, may or may not be, Impiltur isn't my strong point), I'd like to see more characters developed for each of the regions. Nothing that needs to be set in stone, but some sort of guide would be excellent. Their level isn't even really that important (though personal power vs political power is a subject that I'd love to see more done on), just an idea on who's who.
Anyhow, I'll try to expand on this tomorrow, busy weekend though, we'll see. |
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4e FR
