| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Arkane
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 05:06:08
|
Markustay said,
Here's the BIG problem, as I see it - Many people are HEAVILY invested in 3e, both designers and gamers alike. The other companis won't be able to publish their own settings in 4e (at least, not without EXTENSIVE licensing, like what was done with Kalamar), so they will have to pay to carry the "D&D" seal of approval from now on. A lot of developers won't bother, since 3e is still a viable option, and they will continue to develop material for the edition MOST people already own (and will continue to play in).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
What about the Wilderlands over at Necromancer Games? I hope they will still be able to carry on their setting. It's nearly as detailed as the Realms in some ways.
|
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 17:53:04
|
Like I said, I suspect (just my opinion, mind you) that most of those 3rd party companies and settings WON'T be updating to 4e.
Why should they, if 3e works for them, and they already have an invested fan-base?
The mental picture of rats fleeing a sinking ship comes to mind... 
I think 4e will tank, for the same reasons that 3e was so successful - the immense amount of material available from OTHER companies. 4e's BIGGEST competition will be 3e... and WotC knows it - thats why they are on a 3e-bashing campaign right now.
Thats like Ford telling you to buy a Pickup truck because Mustangs suck.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 21:43:12
|
Another thing I'm wondering about is this:
will the new gaming license allow 3rd parties to produce rules-extensions? If not I doubt many folks will actually jump on the train |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 01:33:08
|
| Does anyone know if the open license for 3e was granted in perpetuity? Just curious. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 02:19:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Does anyone know if the open license for 3e was granted in perpetuity? Just curious.
It is. WOTC can't revoke the OGL, at least that is what has been debated on ENworld and some of the top game designers, who still work, or once worked, for WOTC have weighed in on the issue since 2000. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 13 Mar 2008 02:20:00 |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 03:57:06
|
| Thanks, Kuje. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 04:08:26
|
OGL is just that, no copyright protection. Thus it can not be revoked.
As fot 4th SRD and/or OGL Wotc has indicated that they would release an SRD (which will include rules) and that the OGL would be modified to some exrent. They for example requested a prelease fee of 10,000 so that thrid parties could start producing produvts before the general relaese of core product. From what WotC has indicated there would not be much change from 3.X OGL as to thrid party product.
All in all the actual liscense would need to be looked at, however what has been stated appears to indicate that third party products can still be produced. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 13 Mar 2008 04:12:13 |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 04:08:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Thanks, Kuje.
No problem. :) However, I was going to mention that WOTC can revoke the d20 license and the emblem but the 3.X OGL is around forever. Which is why the Book of Erotic Fantasy caused such a big stink because it was going to be d20 until WOTC changed the d20 policy, thus forcing Valar to change the book to OGL. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 13 Mar 2008 04:16:07 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 07:16:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
OGL is just that, no copyright protection. Thus it can not be revoked.
As fot 4th SRD and/or OGL Wotc has indicated that they would release an SRD (which will include rules) and that the OGL would be modified to some exrent. They for example requested a prelease fee of 10,000 so that thrid parties could start producing produvts before the general relaese of core product. From what WotC has indicated there would not be much change from 3.X OGL as to thrid party product.
All in all the actual liscense would need to be looked at, however what has been stated appears to indicate that third party products can still be produced.
It was 5k not 10k...and as of now, I think, not one of the paying parties has seen the license etc |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 07:19:24
|
I don't keep up with all the licensing and business mish-mosh, so thank you for the heads-up, Kuje.
So... whats the difference between a product being D20, and being 'just' OGL?
Just the emblem? (The "Wizards seal of Approval")?
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
It was 5k not 10k...and as of now, I think, not one of the paying parties has seen the license etc
So you're saying that WotC is taking the money, Mace, and NOT delivering?
Geee... thats not like WotC to be inconsistent like that... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Mar 2008 06:49:41 |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 14:16:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't keep up with all the licensing and business mish-mosh, so thank you for the heads-up, Kuje.
So... whats the difference between a product being D20, and being 'just' OGL?
Just the emblem? (The "Wizards seal of Approval")?
Pretty much. The d20 emblem meant you were either licensed by WOTC or you had their approval. OGL, you didn't really need that as long as you were following the text that is listed in whatever version of the OGL you were using.
Edit: I just want to add, I'm not a lawyer, so take any of what I said with a grain of salt but this is how I understood the OGL from reading the debates on ENworld for the last eight years. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 13 Mar 2008 14:55:41 |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 15:03:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The only positive in Rich's replies today -
"6) No, I think Candlekeep is pretty much as it was."
At least we still have a place to go when the s__t hits the fan.
I'm pretty sure that question was about the place in the Realms, not us.
Well, I sorta meant it both ways... 
But isn't the Candlekeep website server over in the sub-levels of the Candlekeep library in the realms??  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 15:13:33
|
| About Lathander being Amaunator...I first heard of Amaunator in the CRPG BG games and the more I read about it back in 2E, and then in 3E I was betting with my brother that Lathander would one day turn into Amaunator in some fashion. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 15:16:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
It was 5k not 10k...and as of now, I think, not one of the paying parties has seen the license etc
So you're saying that WotC is taking the money, Mace, and NOT delivering?
Geee... that not like WotC to be inconsistent like that...
We've already discussed this. WotC has not refused to deliver; they've simply delayed things a bit while their lawyers go over everything. We shouldn't be rushing to bash WotC when it's a simple case of making sure they're covered.
The Shattered Realms has a lot of people upset, myself included, but that's not an excuse to bash WotC for any perceived fault -- especially ones that are caused by purely legal concerns. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 15:19:07
|
| I hope 4E will at least not have something like the D100 license or something to that effect. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2008 : 15:19:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So you're saying that WotC is taking the money, Mace, and NOT delivering?
Well...yes... so far the entire affair looks like a con-job, especially if you think about companies like Paizo who need time to prep a new adventure path, and the time-window probably has almost vanished to the ether which in turn means that the 3rd Pathfinder cycle will be in 3.5 as well. And the privilege to publish something with 4e on the cover for Paizo, and probably for the other companies as well is boiling down to a big fat nothing. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 04:57:48
|
| Well said Mace. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 06:58:22
|
Thank you for the heads-up as well, Mace.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We've already discussed this. WotC has not refused to deliver; they've simply delayed things a bit while their lawyers go over everything. We shouldn't be rushing to bash WotC when it's a simple case of making sure they're covered.
Sorry Wooly, I wasn't saying they were 'thieves' or anything of that nature, so I apologize if it came off that way.
The point I was trying to make is that they are not very 'on-the-ball', as it were, and going by what Mace just related, that pretty much seems to be the case.
When you hold up your own company, you have no one to blame but yourself, but when you hold up someone else's business and thereby interfere with their ability to make a profit, thats in-excusable.
Especially in this case, where they are going over the SRD with a fine tooth comb because they are afraid SOMEONE ELSE might figure out how to make some money without them.
To tell you truth, I'm sorry to hear Paizo wants to go 4e... I guess some people need to get burned twice. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Mar 2008 08:18:54 |
|
|
|
ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 07:08:48
|
I don't know... I'd like to hope that Wot-zi hasn't gone so far as to start scamming and defrauding others. Being honest, as much as I hate what they are doing tot he Realms, they haven't been THAT underhanded. I do see the 4e window starting to shut, though, and I remember what they tried to do the Legends of the Five Rings. It's kinda worrisome.
Personally, I think that there's going to be a lot more people sticking with 3.5 instead of converting to 4e. |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
|
|
|
freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 11:49:57
|
The story with the GSL is apparently that WotC legal is behind the eight-ball and that the RPG people, like Scott Rouse, are embarrassed that they're so slow. They also seem to know that the longer they delay, the less likely any company will pay the $5000 because it'll be too hard to get something done by GenCon (after all, you can make 4e materials without a license fee in Jan 2009). Also, IIRC, other companies don't have to pay the $5000 until after they read the license; the $5000 is only to look at early copies of the rules and to put out products before Jan 2009. So WotC hasn't gotten any money off this yet, but a lot of annoyance. You can look all this up on EN World's news page.
AFAIK, Paizo plans to pay the $5000 to look at the rules early, since they have the dough, but they claim they haven't made any decisions about switching or not yet. |
My DnD Links and Creations |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 12:28:28
|
More weirdness...
So Ioun is a god of Knowledge now, and she created the Ioun Stones?
Things just keep getting weirder and weirder....
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 16:43:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
More weirdness...
So Ioun is a god of Knowledge now, and she created the Ioun Stones?
Things just keep getting weirder and weirder....
Nothing weird about her, she is a 4e core book god. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 17:01:40
|
| *sigh* I hope that Ioun as a female deity isn't imported into the Realms... And once more, I really wish they'd stop reusing names. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 17:43:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
*sigh* I hope that Ioun as a female deity isn't imported into the Realms... And once more, I really wish they'd stop reusing names.
Hmmmm, replacement for Mystra perhaps?
Names: bring 'em on, got to love the confusuion of multiple names - can't see why this is a problem?
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 17:49:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
*sigh* I hope that Ioun as a female deity isn't imported into the Realms... And once more, I really wish they'd stop reusing names.
Hmmmm, replacement for Mystra perhaps?
No. Part of the motivation for the Sellplague was to remove the deity of magic idea. No Mystra, no replacement. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 17:54:19
|
Two Wulgreths, Two Oboulds, Two Iouns, Two Torils (Abeir)..
I guess the motto is, if one is good, two are gooder. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 17:58:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Ioun is a god of Knowledge now, and she created the Ioun Stones?
Things just keep getting weirder and weirder....
Why is this wierd? I am assuming because in the Realms they were created by Ioun the Arcanist. In fact Dale Henson decided to retcon the creation of Ioun stones to Netheril and made up a wizard to do it.
Ioun stone have 'always' existed in D&D from 1E onwards. I see no issue with WotC creating this deity and the reason behind the change in Lore.
Its not the only time that pre-existing D&D magic items have been 'created' to a Realms NPC. Anyone remeber Elminster and the Iron Bands of Bilarro from one of the Shadow of the Avatars books? He 'knows' the real creator and after getting caught in a set, he whispers the true command word and they fall off him - I seem to recall something written along the lines of @Bilarro took credit for the work of others' - so why can't Ioun the Arcanist take credit for the work of another? its an easy fix.
Am sure there are lots of items/spells in current Realms canon that are actually creations of others but that are crdited to someone else.
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
|
|
|
crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 18:01:42
|
I also like the fact that WotC are going back to naming magics that 'belong' to someone. I think that Keoghtoms Ointment, Hewards Handy Haversack et al add to the game, not take away from it.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
|
|
|
crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 18:04:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No. Part of the motivation for the Sellplague was to remove the deity of magic idea. No Mystra, no replacement.
But wouldn't it be interesting if this was changed because of all the complaints on the forums, (Torm in Tyr out etc).
I can see this happening
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2008 : 18:17:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No. Part of the motivation for the Sellplague was to remove the deity of magic idea. No Mystra, no replacement.
But wouldn't it be interesting if this was changed because of all the complaints on the forums, (Torm in Tyr out etc).
I can see this happening
If that was to happen I really have to question the sanity of the movers & shakers at Wizards... why kill off Mytra (mkII) claiming they want magic to be free and then introduce a new deity of magic basically taking over for Mystra? Hmmm...no |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
4e FR
