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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 21:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, first of all, WotC may be owned by Hasbro, but I'm seriously doubting that Hasbro is doing anything more than issuing broad orders like "increase sales". I can't see Hasbro saying "hey, let's have this minor branch of our company screw over their customers!"
Secondly, we're all too willing to cast the blame here, when we only know one side of what's going on -- if even that much. Okay, so somebody hasn't received their 4E OGL. This isn't necessarily any kind of maliciousness. It could be something as simple as a delay in having the OGL ready, due to either playtesting or WotC's legal department wanting to make sure that people can't even type "OGL" without crediting WotC.
We've got enough to be angry about with the Sellplague. I don't think we need to go looking for more reasons to be mad.
I'm not angry about this...just kinda ... well...surprised and shocked at the way they treat paying "partners", Wooly
Well, as I say, there could be a very good reason for it. We don't have all the info. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 21:31:53
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Back to the topic, has there been any previews on the upcoming 4E products that will be released?
Well, there are the two preview books, Races and Classes, and Worlds and Monsters. I have the book, and I think they are good reads. There is also the WotC site (online Dragon). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 00:57:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, first of all, WotC may be owned by Hasbro, but I'm seriously doubting that Hasbro is doing anything more than issuing broad orders like "increase sales". I can't see Hasbro saying "hey, let's have this minor branch of our company screw over their customers!"
Secondly, we're all too willing to cast the blame here, when we only know one side of what's going on -- if even that much. Okay, so somebody hasn't received their 4E OGL. This isn't necessarily any kind of maliciousness. It could be something as simple as a delay in having the OGL ready, due to either playtesting or WotC's legal department wanting to make sure that people can't even type "OGL" without crediting WotC.
We've got enough to be angry about with the Sellplague. I don't think we need to go looking for more reasons to be mad.
I'm not angry about this...just kinda ... well...surprised and shocked at the way they treat paying "partners", Wooly
Well, as I say, there could be a very good reason for it. We don't have all the info.
I think I may (or may not?) have seen a post somewhere in which the WoTC designers stated that the delay in the 4E OGL (or whatever it is now called) is indeed due to legal issues, as you said. IIRC they wanted to rewrite some vaguely-phrased parts so that they won't be any room left to interpretation over what you can or cannot do under the license (I think there were some "holes" their legal department had originally overlooked?). I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this info is from EnWorld. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 01:01:43
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| Back on topic: I think I may buy Monte Cook's "D&D 3.75" (it's only 9$!) and see if it can be used in FR without too much rewriting. I was just wondering if it includes a lot of spells, races and feats from Ptolus, and whether it'd easy to convert FR stuff or not... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 18:35:48
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Nothing to say that we can't put up a link to Rich's (or any other designer's) post, and give an overview of the topic.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Rich has asked that his posts not be copied elsewhere. We may question the reasoning, but I think we should honor his request. After all, we have many designers and authors here, including Rich himself. How's it going to look if we ignore that request? It's better for all involved if we respect his wishes.
And I don't see that there's any need to keep discussing it.
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 18:53:44
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I picked this up a couple of days ago, but haven't had a chance to really sit down with it.
However, that being said, at first glance, I haven't seen anything yet that I'd toss out immediately. The changes to healing make a lot of sense (there are a lot of sidebars explaining the reasoning and thought behind the changes). A lot more sense than a cleric providing healing to all party members every time he strikes an opponent. 
20 levels of spell progression - nice! 15th level spellcasters can cast 15th level spells.
Some of the ideas sort of parallel the things we've seen from the 4E previews: characters choose disciplines that provide at will powers; this replaces the standard class features such as Turn Undead and Backstab.
So far, it's definitely an interesting read. I would have a lot easier time supporting 4E if this had been published first, and WotC had contracted Monte to design the new edition around this document. I can't see anything here that would require a RSE to implement in FR (not that I've seen that either from WotC, yet)
You could have a 3.5E wizard in the same party as a BoXM wizard easily; it's noted that classes exclusively build from the new rules - you're either a BoXM character or not, similar to not being able to take levels in both Wizard and Specialist Wizard.
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Back on topic: I think I may buy Monte Cook's "D&D 3.75" (it's only 9$!) and see if it can be used in FR without too much rewriting. I was just wondering if it includes a lot of spells, races and feats from Ptolus, and whether it'd easy to convert FR stuff or not...
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2008 : 07:00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Back to the topic, has there been any previews on the upcoming 4E products that will be released?
Well, there are the two preview books, Races and Classes, and Worlds and Monsters. I have the book, and I think they are good reads. There is also the WotC site (online Dragon).
Preview books? Are these for sale? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2008 : 16:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Preview books? Are these for sale?
Yep. Twenty Dollars/Ten Pounds get you a lot of meta-information, and some surface thinking into the design process, but thats about it. |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 00:15:10
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I can't believe people bought these. You have to be pretty bold to actually ask your customers to pay for your advertising. But naturally, many D&D players buy anything with the brand logo on it 
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 13:57:07
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| You gotta give WotC 10 out of 10 for chutzpah! |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 14:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
You gotta give WotC 10 out of 10 for chutzpah!
Yes and no. I reread them over the weekend, and they do give quite a lot more insight into the design process than first glance revealed. And with the exchange rate as is, they're only a tenner.
Even so, as you said, they are basically glorified design notes, and I doubt I'll pick them up myself now that I've read them.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 16:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
I can't believe people bought these. You have to be pretty bold to actually ask your customers to pay for your advertising. But naturally, many D&D players buy anything with the brand logo on it
Zorro
I don't agree that those books weren't worthwhile buys. They are advertisements of a sort, but that in itself doesn't mean the books aren't useful or (IMO) weren't worth the money.
The information in the books isn't necessarily stuff you can just get for free elsewhere. Also, I can read and enjoy the books whenever I'm inclined to. If you just skim them in the bookstore, you don't get to do that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Feb 2008 16:57:25 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 17:11:35
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Good point! And beyond the points that Rino said, it“s good to put the hands in some book, or magazine, that bring news about our interests.
This don“t have nothing to do with the idea of "buy anything with the D&D logo". Talking about me, I buy these books to have a real and solid source of info about what the 4ed will be - beyond the assumptions, ideas, imaginations, and fears that we see in the internet. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 17:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Good point! And beyond the points that Rino said, it“s good to put the hands in some book, or magazine, that bring news about our interests.
This don“t have nothing to do with the idea of "buy anything with the D&D logo". Talking about me, I buy these books to have a real and solid source of info about what the 4ed will be - beyond the assumptions, ideas, imaginations, and fears that we see in the internet.
Same here. The books are fun reads. And yes, there have been more than a few times where owning the books has allowing me to tell someone something about 4E that they didn't know, or correct a bit of misinformation.
If no one bought the preview books and shared what they learned with others, much 4E information would still be a mystery. So, you all have those people to thank--it isn't fair to assume that those who bought the books (like myself) are just compulsive buyers who purchase anything with a D&D logo. That's hardly the case with me--I am extremely selective about the books I buy. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Feb 2008 17:20:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2008 : 17:21:06
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Okay, the new cover looks like it will be better then the proposed one, but I'm really hating the fact that the Forgotten Realms logo is taking a back-seat to the HUGE D&D one!
You can view it Here.
In fact, it doesn't appear we have a logo at all, come 4e.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2008 17:21:49 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2008 : 20:10:55
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| So much for product identity... fans might not even realize it is a FR book if they just see the cover... the logo is the one thing that actually draws attention. They should have gone more towards establishing or retaining product identity... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2008 : 20:20:25
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Worst of all, soon in sequence, we have an Eberron cover with a great logo...
This don“t make sense, is offensive, and desnecessary. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2008 : 02:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, the new cover looks like it will be better then the proposed one, but I'm really hating the fact that the Forgotten Realms logo is taking a back-seat to the HUGE D&D one!
You can view it Here.
In fact, it doesn't appear we have a logo at all, come 4e.
Thanks for posting that. Although, it's too bad the person who made the video couldn't keep the picture steady.
I'm also a little annoyed at how the Eberron logo is prominent, but the FR logo isn't. I also noticed how there was a lot of clapping when the narrator (whomever it was) said "We care about Eberron."
Was that just an Eberron-loving crowd or something? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2008 : 15:33:19
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| Hmm...I think the lack of FR logo is just...sad. And the Shade on the cover...ach, I“m going to keep quiet on that, just not a big fan of those. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2008 : 23:28:47
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notice that the guy kept saying the "New Realms" and mentioning how the old realms were like an encyclopedia and we are getting away from that
we want the new players blah blah blah
and yet then whammo we get same old same old Eberron, no fast forward
stupid guy also said Shades were new
i feel like a kid again getting castor oil jammed down my throat when i wasn't even sick
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 01:13:32
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"The Shades are new,", LOL.
Was the 3E FRCS really that difficult to read? Was it hard to glean useful ideas from it? I never had that problem... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 16:19:30
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This was posted on ENworld today from an article Ed did with IGN.
"IGN got to talk to Ed Greenwood, a conversation which revealed that Elminster is "afraid to use his magic now, not only because of the effects of the Spell Plague, but also because he's absorbed the memories of a number of powerful beings who tend to take over his mind when he attempts to use magic." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 16:32:05
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Hmmm, interesting, and intriguing. So, old El will have to focus on his role as sage and advisor. This mantain the original vision of Ed - Elminster as a sage and "face" of the Realms, but not the focal point of everything arcane in Faerūn...
One doubt: What is IGN? |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 16:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Hmmm, interesting, and intriguing. So, old El will have to focus on his role as sage and advisor. This mantain the original vision of Ed - Elminster as a sage and "face" of the Realms, but not the focal point of everything arcane in Faerūn...
One doubt: What is IGN?
IGN is mostly a site that reviews computer/consule games.
Found the link to said article, the Ed info is over on page 2:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/855/855992p1.html |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Mar 2008 16:40:37 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 16:40:30
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| Thanks for the info, Kuje. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 16:48:30
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IGN is a big site. They also do all of the hosting for the Vault network, hosting the mods for NWN and NWN2, among other games, at no cost to anyone. I also usually find their reviews fairly trustworthy and on-point, even if everything is getting high scores which is the norm in game journalism anyway.
But this is an interview, shouldn't be any different than reading interviews elsewhere. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 17:44:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This was posted on ENworld today from an article Ed did with IGN.
"IGN got to talk to Ed Greenwood, a conversation which revealed that Elminster is "afraid to use his magic now, not only because of the effects of the Spell Plague, but also because he's absorbed the memories of a number of powerful beings who tend to take over his mind when he attempts to use magic."
Yeah, I saw that bit posted on the WotC boards a couple days ago.
Do I need to say what I think about it? :-/ |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 17:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Hmmm, interesting, and intriguing. So, old El will have to focus on his role as sage and advisor. This mantain the original vision of Ed - Elminster as a sage and "face" of the Realms, but not the focal point of everything arcane in Faerūn...
Why did they need such an inelegant way of doing that though?
Oh yeah, perception--a greater force than truth. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2008 : 20:51:20
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| There are more posts by Rich on the WotC Ask the Realms designers thread (out of respect for Rich, I have only posted the link, so you will have to go there to read them). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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4e FR
