| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Malkor the Mad
Acolyte
USA
11 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 05:28:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
However why did they have to blow up the Realms to do this? I do not buy into this twaddle being bandied about regarding other current gamers who wont play in the Realms because of the Chosen, lots of magic, Hapers and Archwizards everywhere etc etc, but they would play in the new Realms once all these 'issues' have gone.
snippy
Sure they would. What better MMO game would there be then to have FR be the setting? Imagine, pouncing through the spiderhaunts at lvl 15 with your party while making sure that everyone has the nifty magic item that drops from the queen spider before you leave to go kill somewhere else to get to lvl 20.
Reading over the FR information that has been released so far reads like a background manual for WoW/LotR/MMO of the month.
Not saying you have to agree with me, just saying i'll wait till next year when they release the "Suprise" that they have signed a contract with Atari to make FR a MMO. |
Mystic Theurge of Velsharoon |
 |
|
|
dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 06:07:29
|
This thing crapped out on me, hope it didn't get double posted. If so, my bad!
quote:
Originally posted by Malkor the Mad
One thing I have noticed that no one has hinted at, (that I have read at least) is how WotC has made 4E more video game friendly.
Looking at sales for books and video games in this day and age, video games are much farther ahead.
What they have done from what I have seen is make it a lot easier for Atari/Obsidian/Whoever to make games more in line with the actual rules. A lot of the reason there are not a lot of games that come from D&D rules is because it's not video game friendly. Companies have to spend a lot of time and money converting the book rules to something that can be used in the video game, and most don't want to waste the resources to do that.
Now they don't have to. I would imagine, especially with a parent company like Hasbro, they are looking for more avenues to sell their products. And with kids these days, unfortunantly not knowing what a book is, video games and movies are the two money makers.
Just my predictions, but I would imagine that we will be seeing a lot more games coming out connected to either D&D or even based in FR.
I think you're on the right track here. Video games are a multi-billion dollar industry. With the, debatable (there are many poor quality and poor selling D&D games out there, but many high quality big sellers as well), success of D&D games in the past it's hard not to look towards that being the future of D&D, or at least acknowledge the possibility.
The rest of this post isn't addressed specifically to you, Melkor the Mad.
First, on WoW: Upwards of 8 million people across the globe play WoW (the number of regular players is probably lower by a large number if you know how MMO companies count subs), and to shoe horn that entire market into kids with short attention spans...I don't think those who would agree with the statements of that variety understand how or why WoW became so successful.
On MMOs in general: WotC already has a D&D MMO using the 3.5e ruleset set in Eberron, DDO (little sidenote: there was a huge push to have DDO not in Eberron and in Forgotten Realms instead in the early stages of development, but that didn't work out :D). Turbine, the company that runs DDO and has the d20 MMO engine, already runs three successful MMOs simulteaneously; Asheron's Call, Lord of the Rings Online, and Dungens and Dragons Online. Asheron's Call is old, but profitable, but the other two are only a few years old. The D&D MMO will be around for a while and Turbine isn't EA (but Bioware is now), it's a small company relatively. I doubt they could handle another MMO. Besides all that, the DDO subs are hardly impressive, profitable yes, but nothing to write home about.
Alright, here's the thing: It's possible that when WotC brought Turbine in to make DDO, there was no talk about 4e and FR on the table. MMOs take years of development, so really they could have started on DDO as early as '01 or so. But MMOs aren't something you make money on in a few months and call it quits. We're talking tens of millions of dollars in dev costs and a decade or more of shelf life on these things. In my opinion, DDO is THE D&D MMO for the forseeable future. It's over the hype hump and people are still playing. It's making money.
So realistically if WotC wanted to saturate a plateauing MMO market with another D&D MMO, they'd have to turn to another company (which may even be in breach of the license agreement, but that's speculation) and compete with themselves and Turbine. That's even if they can find a company worth their salt to make an MMO to compete with the relatively trivial number of subs DDO holds.
I mean, you can say what you want about WotC and Hasboro, but come on. I really doubt they're doing all this to cash in on the WoW crowd (which isn't even that big compared to the total number of people who buy video games each year across the globe anyway)
Second, on kids and video games: Kids don't have any money. What's it cost to get the books needed to play core D&D? ~$100? They're not targetting kids.
But I think you're on point. I'd look for something more along the lines of Magic: The Gathering Online, as in an online P&P session on WotC servers and more single player or multiplayer online games like NWN2 or what have you instead of MMOs though.
Just my opinion. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
|
|
|
Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 09:42:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem I see coming up with this new FR is that they do think us stupid customers will spread our behinds wide, hand them the lubricant and take the stuff they want us to buy like the idiots they think we are.
Nice imagery.
Can't say I'd ever describe the behind of a 36-year-old man spread wide as "nice imagery," but I won't judge anyone for feeling differently |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 09:49:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem I see coming up with this new FR is that they do think us stupid customers will spread our behinds wide, hand them the lubricant and take the stuff they want us to buy like the idiots they think we are.
Nice imagery.
Can't say I'd ever describe the behind of a 36-year-old man spread wide as "nice imagery," but I won't judge anyone for feeling differently
ROFL  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 10:13:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem I see coming up with this new FR is that they do think us stupid customers will spread our behinds wide, hand them the lubricant and take the stuff they want us to buy like the idiots they think we are.
Nice imagery.
Can't say I'd ever describe the behind of a 36-year-old man spread wide as "nice imagery," but I won't judge anyone for feeling differently
ROFL
It depends on the "point of view", I guess. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
|
|
|
Malkor the Mad
Acolyte
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 14:26:09
|
Dirtywick.
First, it's Malkor. ;)
I guess I didn't realize DDO was that young. I suppose time kinda blends together as you get older. I will agree with you though that I think there will be a lot more SP video games that will come out with D&D connections. Just makes to much sence with the new rules and the way FR is now set up.
P.S. Just had to include that I do love your Mods. Are you working on any new ones? You can pm with that as I dont think it will fit in with the thread.
|
Mystic Theurge of Velsharoon |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 16:30:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem I see coming up with this new FR is that they do think us stupid customers will spread our behinds wide, hand them the lubricant and take the stuff they want us to buy like the idiots they think we are.
Nice imagery.
Can't say I'd ever describe the behind of a 36-year-old man spread wide as "nice imagery," but I won't judge anyone for feeling differently
HEY! Thanks for ruining my self-confidence... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 16:54:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
I mean, you can say what you want about WotC and Hasboro, but come on. I really doubt they're doing all this to cash in on the WoW crowd (which isn't even that big compared to the total number of people who buy video games each year across the globe anyway)
Second, on kids and video games: Kids don't have any money. What's it cost to get the books needed to play core D&D? ~$100? They're not targetting kids.
If they're not targetting the WoW audience, then why does just about every change they've discussed make the game more like WoW and other MMOs? These games, particularly WoW, have made it "cool" to play computer games, and the market has simply exploded. And there is no sign it's slowing down, either. You think the bean counters aren't looking at that and wondering how to get in on it?
It's just like the CCG explosion that happened after Magic hit it big. Everyone, including TSR, had to jump on board with their own CCG to try to cash in on that market.
And your reasoning on money is flawed, too. It's true that kids don't have money... But their parents do. No kid is going to be able to afford a Wii or a PS3, but those are certainly selling well. A lot of kids couldn't cover the $40 upfront for WoW and the $15 monthly fee -- but with literally millions of players, you know kids are part of it. One of my coworkers was just the other day discussing having gone on a raid with a 6 year old Australian kid in the group.
That $100 to play core D&D is certainly a cheaper investment than a Wii, or a good video card (or even a faster computer!), and it's a one-time fee, as opposed to the ongoing fees of MMOs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 16:57:32
|
| Not if you get the DDI . . . |
|
|
|
Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 17:53:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
I mean, you can say what you want about WotC and Hasboro, but come on. I really doubt they're doing all this to cash in on the WoW crowd (which isn't even that big compared to the total number of people who buy video games each year across the globe anyway)
Second, on kids and video games: Kids don't have any money. What's it cost to get the books needed to play core D&D? ~$100? They're not targetting kids.
hmmm... because the kids playing MMOs grow, get jobs, and will spend their own money? Don't take that as a snarky answer, I just feel it is true. I still listen to the music of the 70's and 80's, I grew up in (rock n roll, NOT disco, thank you very much). If the kids enjoy that style of gaming now, they will probably enjoy that style of RPG in a few years.
it is that next generation of whatever gaming follows MMOs that 5e will try to capture. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
Edited by - Mkhaiwati on 02 Feb 2008 17:56:11 |
|
|
|
dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 18:45:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Malkor the Mad
Dirtywick.
First, it's Malkor. ;)
I guess I didn't realize DDO was that young. I suppose time kinda blends together as you get older. I will agree with you though that I think there will be a lot more SP video games that will come out with D&D connections. Just makes to much sence with the new rules and the way FR is now set up.
P.S. Just had to include that I do love your Mods. Are you working on any new ones? You can pm with that as I dont think it will fit in with the thread.
Sorry, didn't mean to mis-spell your name.
Yeah, DDO was released in early 2006. It's going on just two years old (next month), which is fairly young for an MMO. By contrast to those interested, Everquest and Ultima Online, which are both still running, were released in the late 90's. MMOs aren't something you do to make a quick buck, they're a huge investment of time and money.
I remember, I was so excited for a D&D MMO when they announced it. I was on the message boards talking about how great it was going to be and this and that. I didn't really like the game, though.
(Yes, I'm working on Ch 2 of Subtelty of Thay now.)
quote:
If they're not targetting the WoW audience, then why does just about every change they've discussed make the game more like WoW and other MMOs? These games, particularly WoW, have made it "cool" to play computer games, and the market has simply exploded. And there is no sign it's slowing down, either. You think the bean counters aren't looking at that and wondering how to get in on it?
It's just like the CCG explosion that happened after Magic hit it big. Everyone, including TSR, had to jump on board with their own CCG to try to cash in on that market.
I don't really think WoW is responsible for making video games popular. Video games have been extrememly popular for decades before that. Specifically the MMO genre, WoW is the MMO that cracked open a huge portion of the market not known to exist, nearly doubled the MMO market. But I'd honestly be surprised if WoW outsold, say, Madden.
Of course, I'm sure they'd liked to have gotten a piece of the MMO market and WoW audience with DDO, their answer to the MMO/CCG craze. The results were, I don't know, barely profitable? I mean, it wasn't a juggernaut, even compared to pre-WoW MMO subs. There was an expansion, but I don't think it's doing particularly well compared to many other games.
OK, but why are these rule changes so similar?
I'm really not sure what's prompting them to do this.
But I'd like to point out here that video games often redesign other games, make them better, and repackage them as new games. It's not more like WoW, because WoW "re-invented" much of their combat system from EQ and tweaked it, which got it from earlier RPGs...and you can probably trace it all back to D&D if you want. One of the first really popular RPGs worldwide, Final Fantasy, had spells per day! (in contrast the NES D&D game, Heroes of the Lance, was a weak platformer...like Mario except terrible)
That's just how it works. I really don't think it's let's copy WoW to get in on their relatively small market. WoW recently announced it broke 10 million customers worldwide. If we assume that each of the people playing paid full box price ($50, which isn't the box price and hasn't been for years)(also going to ignore the sub revenue because WotC won't be collecting that so it's laregely irrelevant) that's $500 million dollars in box sales over 4 years. Huge success, no doubt. But, in 2001 (and that was before WoW), Walmart alone sold $1.5 billion dollars worth of box sales at a time when the video game industry was a 4 billion dollar business...these days it's more like 12-13 billion, I think it's more like this was fun when I played game X, let's try some of it with D&D. The video game market is a lot, lot bigger than WoW.
The whole point I'm making is the video game market is much bigger than WoW and WoW hardly introduced a bunch of new concepts, they just refined existing ones; additionally, WoW's success has more to do with a good game and a strong presence in Asia, over 50% of it's customer base. So a statement along the lines of they're just making it like WoW to cash in on that crowd, it's hard for me to swallow. Once you understand how (first to capture the Asian market, huge fanatical fan base with Warcraft/Starcraft series, high quality refined game combining "best of" elements from ten years of experience, etc.) and why (perfect timing to enter the market, huge hype machine and word of mouth, Asian market (can't emphasize thate enough), etc.) WoW became such a huge success, it's not hard to see that WotC can't do that. And it has little to do with the rules of the game.
Or perhaps they really just don't know what they're doing?
Again, just my opinion.
quote:
And your reasoning on money is flawed, too. It's true that kids don't have money... But their parents do. No kid is going to be able to afford a Wii or a PS3, but those are certainly selling well. A lot of kids couldn't cover the $40 upfront for WoW and the $15 monthly fee -- but with literally millions of players, you know kids are part of it. One of my coworkers was just the other day discussing having gone on a raid with a 6 year old Australian kid in the group.
That $100 to play core D&D is certainly a cheaper investment than a Wii, or a good video card (or even a faster computer!), and it's a one-time fee, as opposed to the ongoing fees of MMOs.
To be fair, PS3 wasn't really selling well (until their price drop) and the Wii is marketed more at adults, that's kind of the whole point of the Wii marketing strategy, they're targetting people that don't normally play video games...which isn't kids. It worked phenomenally, btw.
But, fair point. Parents do spend money on kids.
In all honesty, I really don't know that much about WotC and their marketing. If you say that kids are D&D's primary market, I'll take your word for it. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything by saying that, I just jumped to a conclusion and if I'm wrong, ok. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
|
|
|
dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 18:54:52
|
| I should clarify, I don't think WoW had NO influence on the rules changes. If anything, it showed what millions of people like in a game. But rather to say that's it's the sole influence I think is wrong. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 19:28:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
I don't really think WoW is responsible for making video games popular. Video games have been extrememly popular for decades before that. Specifically the MMO genre, WoW is the MMO that cracked open a huge portion of the market not known to exist, nearly doubled the MMO market. But I'd honestly be surprised if WoW outsold, say, Madden.
I didn't say video games. Video games have been around for decades, as you said, and have long been popular. I specifically said computer games. And with 10 million players, and William Shatner and Mr. T doing commercials, it's clear that WoW is continuing to gain mainstream popularity -- something D&D has never had. They're not copying WoW to copy a computer game, they're copying WoW to cash in on the rising popularity of computer games in general. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 19:35:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
hmmm... because the kids playing MMOs grow, get jobs, and will spend their own money? Don't take that as a snarky answer, I just feel it is true. I still listen to the music of the 70's and 80's, I grew up in (rock n roll, NOT disco, thank you very much). If the kids enjoy that style of gaming now, they will probably enjoy that style of RPG in a few years.
it is that next generation of whatever gaming follows MMOs that 5e will try to capture.
That's probable.
But the impression that it's kids playing MMOs when it's laregly adults is misleading. The peole that buy video games today are mostly adults, I'd assumed that the same was for P&P games as well.
As far as the game style is concerned, I absolutely agree. But this isn't just WoW, but rather an amalgm of nearly 30 years of video games that borrowed a huge influence from P&P games in the beginning. I believe that is what's influencing these changes, not WoW alone. In fact, WoW plays a small role...aside from being the first MMO to, for lack of a better term, get the entire package right and break the market open. But the gameplay in WoW is hardly new, it's extremely refined. But the same thing that influenced WoW is influecing WotC with the ruleset changes: 30 years of RPG gaming. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
|
|
|
dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 19:46:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I didn't say video games. Video games have been around for decades, as you said, and have long been popular. I specifically said computer games. And with 10 million players, and William Shatner and Mr. T doing commercials, it's clear that WoW is continuing to gain mainstream popularity -- something D&D has never had. They're not copying WoW to copy a computer game, they're copying WoW to cash in on the rising popularity of computer games in general.
In that case, I agree with you. (I don't think there's a huge difference between video games and computer games as far as rulesets are concerned, though. Console games are developed on computers, the software is like an OS lite (in fact, you can install windows on a PS2 if you have an HDD for it), and the hardware is nearly identical. The UI is the real difference with a controller instead of a keyboard and mouse (and even that's changing, you've been able to use a USB keyboard on consoles for years now), but that has little to do with the ruleset.)
I was addressing WoW specifically because the point the finger at WoW mentality is wrong. I won't discount the lasting influence WoW has had on the MMO genre, and RPGS in general. I think that they're changing the ruleset to be more video game friendly, and I personally look at that as one of the positives of 4e, but just to get a crack at the WoW customer base and copy WoW, I doubt that. In my last post I explained why I think that is, it's just the evolution of RPGs. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
|
|
|
RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 03:58:48
|
Re: Bruce Cordell's illumination of the Spellplague.
This is better than the current Realms, HOW??? |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 05:07:55
|
Honestly, I think that trying to figure out if WOTC is trying to make D&D like a video game is kind of pointless and sort of like trying to ascribe motives to people when there isn't anything in evidence to prove it. If WOTC wanted to just flat out make D&D like WoW, I would have expected halflings to go away and gnomes to be even more tinker like, as well as goblins, and for smokepowder to become more prominent, when they are apparently getting rid of the concept, or at least ignoring it for now in 4th edition Realms.
If anything, I think that WOTC is throwing a bit too much of everything that they think is successful with their potential fans into the games . . . kender and draconians from Dragonlance, planar structure from Birthright, game structure and item levels from WoW and other MMORPGs (and clumsily too, but using the term "elite" as a straight lift), Dragonmarks from Eberron . . . anything that might be interesting to D&D players and potential D&D players, all jammed together. Its not just video games, its anything that might hit their potential targets, but video games are one aspect.
The problem is, in the middle of trying to figure out a "core Realms experience," I get the feeling that the D&D game is moving toward a more homogenized structure. Anything that had any resonance is going to be taken out of context, neutered, and put in the game in its new form.
But even though I don't think the key point is to make D&D into WoW, I have to admit I was less than thrilled by the elemental looking Mountain Giant in Worlds and Monsters. |
|
|
|
RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 05:51:47
|
quote:
This theory holds that the world’s magic was held so long in Mystra’s Weave that when the Weave lost its weaver, magic spontaneously and ruinously burst its bonds. Areas of wild magic, already outside the constraints of the Weave, touched off first when their boundaries misted suddenly away. But eventually, few parts of Toril and the planes beyond were unaffected.
The Weave survived Mystra’s two previous deaths. How is this time different? If Mystra was truly a Goddess, it follows that she would have made all sorts of preparations for a third death.
quote:
The plague raged on and on in ever-widening spirals, leaving some places completely untouched (such as many northern lands of Faerûn, including Cormyr and the Swordcoast), and radically altering others (such as Muhorand, Unther, and points south). The plague passed into the realms of demons, gods, and lost souls—dividing some realms, joining others, and generally seeding chaos.
This feels strongly contrived. Was Cormyr or the Swordcoast just lucky? If so, why wasn’t Mulhorand or Unther lucky too? Will all the changes that Wizards cannot explain be attributed to “luck”?
quote:
Near-mythical realms that had passed beyond easy reach were pulled back, such as the Feywild (called Faerie in ancient days). The home of demons fell through the cosmology, unleashing swarming evil before the Abyss found its new home beneath the Elemental Chaos.
This makes no sense. If the Weave was what helped give order to all things magical and it’s collapse led to chaos, why would the Feywild be “pulled in”? Shouldn’t it be “flung out” even further away?
quote:
Even the long forgotten world of Toril burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerûn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster. Such landscapes included their living populations, and thus places such as Akanûl and Tymanther lie as if new-birthed on Faerûn’s face. Across the Trackless Sea, and entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica.
What Wizards is describing is a new natural order. To say this was the result of the destruction of the Weave makes no sense. It would be like blowing up the foundations of a skyscraper and expecting the rubble to reconstitute itself into a space ship. So the question is, what force put Toril back together?
quote:
The Spellplague was a potent direct agent of change, but it also set off a string of secondary catastrophes.
Effects on the Weave
For eons, the use of magic in Faerûn was focused through a god of magic, most recently Mystra. Except for certain Netherese wizards of ancient days who learned the truth, most believed that no magic would be possible without such a deity. However, with the death of Mystra and jealous Shar suppressing the ascension of a new deity of magic, it became common knowledge that magic is accessible without a god to control and codify it. Now when a spellcaster speaks of the Weave, she is just using another term for magic.
More Wizards silliness. Ao dumped all the gods and goddesses just for stealing a glorified piece of rock. He’s going to let Shar decide whether Mystra gets a replacement? Of course, maybe Cyric knocked off Ao on the way back from offing Mystra. Yeah, yeah, that’s the ticket.
quote:
Effect on Items
Most magic items that permanently store magic, such as magic swords, cloaks, and boots, survived the Spellplague and continue to operate normally. Permanent access to magic was "installed" in these devices when they were created, so even though the Weave was used in their making, the Weave no longer played any part in their continuing operation. That said, some items that temporarily stored “charges” of magic, such as wands and staffs created prior to the Spellplague, no longer work. If such items do work, they no longer work in the same way.
That doesn’t work. I’m sure lore-meisters can find any number of examples where magic items of “permanent nature” didn’t work during the Time of Troubles.
quote:
Effects on the Landscape
Where magic was completely loosed, the Spellplague ate through stone and earth as readily as bone and spell. Broad portions of Faerûn’s surface collapsed into the Underdark, partially draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm). The event splintered several of the Old Empires south of the drained sea into a wildscape of towering mesas, bottomless ravines, and cloud-scraping spires (further erasing evidence of the lands and kingdoms once situated there). Historical lands most changed by the Spellplague include Mulhorand, Unther, Chondath, and portions of Aglarond, the Sea of Fallen Stars, and the Shaar. What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains.
The deletion of these lands is gratuitous. They weren’t very popular among gamers and generally served as backdrops where rookie writers can fool around in, but they at least added an interesting exotic flavor. Wizards must replace these locales with lands just as if not even more interesting. Wizards wouldn’t want folks to think that the new Realms is somehow less than what it was, would they?
quote:
Magic in the Year of The Ageless One
The ancient wonder of old magic yet lingers among the ruins of thousand-year-old empires, in crumbling towers of mad wizards, and in buried vaults of elder races. The modern marvels of living wizards, sorcerers, warlocks, clerics, druids, and other spellcasters stride the land as purposefully as they ever did, altering the world in small or large ways with each spell they cast. Indeed, without the divine restrictions of previous ages, magic is more abundant than ever, manifesting not only as inexplicable changes to the landscape, items, and creatures, but even in some of the most fantastic exploits of fighters, rouges, rangers, and other heroes. Magic truly does permeate all things. For all the changes wrought by the Mystra’s death, magic remains the lifeblood of Toril.
They’ve gone and gutted Mystra and the Weave, one of the strongest themes of the Forgotten Realms. They’ve got rid of the more exotic, textured locales. The gods don’t really matter anymore because how they operate and relate to each other make no sense now. They’ve written out most of the major characters who gave the setting life. The small handful of interesting, post-Drizzt characters are probably gone too. So what we’re left with is really Waterdeep, Drizzt and Cormyr. The rest of the stuff is the junk tailored for 4e. Wizards is deluded if they think that they can come up with a more potent version of the Realms through such brute reductionism.
|
Edited by - RodOdom on 04 Feb 2008 05:57:42 |
|
|
|
RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 06:33:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The problem is, in the middle of trying to figure out a "core Realms experience," I get the feeling that the D&D game is moving toward a more homogenized structure. Anything that had any resonance is going to be taken out of context, neutered, and put in the game in its new form.
That too is my sense of the how things are heading. My guess is that a couple years from now Wizards will discover the tens of thousands of FR consumers has not grown by much and explain it as a failure of the setting (oh, it was always too convoluted, too complicated.) They'll fire a few poor schlubs and have the rest put together something else. It will have elves, dwarves and even an old guy with a pointy hat. But it won't ever come close to the honest-to-goodness substance infused into every aspect of the Forgotten Realms. |
Edited by - RodOdom on 04 Feb 2008 06:37:42 |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 19:39:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
It will have elves, dwarves and even an old guy with a pointy hat.
Don't forget a dual-wielding dark elf!  Anywho, I totally agree with KEJR that it feels like an contrived effort to homogenize the Realms into the Core D&D (like Eberron, but Eberron was created with the express desire that it contain everything from the Core D&D) when before it has always been its own entity. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 01:12:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
Re: Bruce Cordell's illumination of the Spellplague.
This is better than the current Realms, HOW???
It's better for WotC's purposes, I guess. :-/ |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 01:18:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
What Wizards is describing is a new natural order. To say this was the result of the destruction of the Weave makes no sense. It would be like blowing up the foundations of a skyscraper and expecting the rubble to reconstitute itself into a space ship. So the question is, what force put Toril back together?
Great question.
|
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 15:46:27
|
Personally, I don't understand why WotC is really confused as to why D&D isn't as big as WoW or why Forgotten Realms isn't getting triple the consumer purchases.
Don't they understand that Tabletop RPGs will NEVER even come close to the success of MMORPGs? It's too much of a niche market. I am pretty sure they know this, but they need to generate more revenue anyhow. It goes back to their parent company, Hasbro. I really think Hasbro had stepped in and wasn't satisfied with them "breaking even" or pulling in only a 10% profit margin or whatever. And, strangely, WotC's response was "Make a new edition!"
Here's what is very obvious about D&D as a whole. You need to do something that all companies, especially WoW, does. It's called: ADVERTISING.
Seriously, when was the last time any of us saw an ad for D&D outside of Dragon Magazine (which made no damn sense to me, wouldn't you already be a D&D player if you owned the magazine)? How about an ad for Forgotten Realms?
Zero.
They had plenty of opportunities to advertise the game. Every Forgotten Realms novel should've had an ad for the game, something like "Now you can play in the very world of your favorite characters from Icewind Dale!" or throw in an advertisement for D&D when they released DDO: Stormreach--- "Now play in the very world of Stormreach!"
But, they didn't. Heck, not even a single TV commercial. What are they afraid of with TV commercials?
Do you want to know the single reason why so many D&D players exist today? Through their "friends". I am pretty sure everyone here was introduced to D&D by someone else, and not because they played Baldur's Gate and said "Hey, let me try this Forgotten Realms Tabletop RPG that I barely heard some other player mention in the game" or not because they spontaneously grabbed Dragon Magazine and said let's try this so-called Dungeons&Dragons.
It's always been us "grognards" that bring WotC their revenue.
That's all WotC had to do to increase sales was simply put out a lot of advertisement. But they're not, and they're simply going to recycle the process of "Revenue isn't increasing to pappa Hasbro's desires, need a new edition again."
|
|
|
|
Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 17:07:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am pretty sure everyone here was introduced to D&D by someone else, and not because they played Baldur's Gate and said "Hey, let me try this Forgotten Realms Tabletop RPG that I barely heard some other player mention in the game" or not because they spontaneously grabbed Dragon Magazine and said let's try this so-called Dungeons&Dragons.
I agree with you there, but I was the one that got my friends into D&D after begging my parents to get me the old Red Box basic set way back when, after having seen it advertised in Marvel Comics. TSR used to advertise in different/associated/similarly geeky media, why can't WOTC? |
|
|
|
sir_lune
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 21:53:16
|
Last time I picked up a Marvel Comics (Civil War ) there were D&D ads in it.
|
|
|
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 22:16:15
|
There's 10 million people playing WoW now btw.
As for why tabletop RPGs don't sell as well as MMOs.. it's simple.
You need to have friends.
If my friends are working, out seeing a movie, out with their girlfriends, etc. they're not here to play D&D. You need PEOPLE to come over and play D&D with you. You can't play D&D by yourself.
You can however play WoW without your friends cause there's some guy 100 miles away that needs help doing the quest your doing.
It doesn't matter how simple the rules are. How much history you erase from your campaign settings, getting a game together is the hardest part of D&D.
I don't care what people say, but DDO is a piece of junk that's further from the rules then any of the games that came before it and it doesn't have 2 million active subscriptions or the sales numbers or game of the year awards or anything else like previous D&D titles because it's not a good D&D game and is a poor MMO. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 06 Feb 2008 22:21:01 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 22:34:02
|
*shrug* there is also the thing about WoW being slightly easier to handle...not slightly, no...you can install it and play... takes an hour or so max with all the patches and stuff. To play D&D requires not only friends, but also a guy willing to GM, with WoW you got the GM in the script..or something like that. WoW is simple and the learning curve for the casual gamer is basically not very high cuz it is all the same (basically), the tactical stuff etc is only important if you plan to raid, and even then it is easier to read some online advice and optimize your character than to read a truckload of books if you wanna play D&D, hell you might even have to THINK (shock, squeal, gasp!)
Revising stuff is natural, and some ideas behind CORE 4e look ok enough, but the changes forced onto the Realms while Eberron stays the same... laughable |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 00:36:40
|
| Who's to say eberron will stay the same? A lot of eberron concepts in the Realms. Maybe there won't be a 4e eberron. Maybe they'll have another make a setting contest. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 01:43:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Who's to say eberron will stay the same? A lot of eberron concepts in the Realms. Maybe there won't be a 4e eberron. Maybe they'll have another make a setting contest.
I'm pretty sure there will still be an Eberron.
Interestingly enough, though, a lot of the delineated 4E design principles don't fit Eberron, such as "magitech" (ie. modern technology achieved through magic). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 03:52:11
|
There's definately going to be a 4e - James Wyatt is in charge of that and he's already promised a 'light touch' in regards to shoe-horning the new rules into the setting, and they will get NO time-jump.
Why couldn't WE get Mr. Wyatt?
Once all the bugs are worked out of the system in the FR test-bed, they will release the 'pefected' (4.5?) rules for Eberron.
FR's just the guinea pig.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
4e FR
