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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 06:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
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Originally posted by JorkensIf someone calls themselves a Realms-fan then that is what they are in my opinion. No matter what edition or time period they prefer. In my view that is how Candlekeep has worked until now and how I hope it will continue. I am probably among the most conservative here, but I have no intention of leaving or say anything against anyone for preferring another version of the Realms.
But therein lies the problem. The 4th Edition Forgotten Realms IS NOT Forgotten Realms at all, not even remotely what it used to be and what it should've been aspiring to except in name only. It's a reboot, a whole new campaign setting with just the stinking logo to reel in the cash.
So when someone who gets into 4e Realms and says,"I'm a Realms fan", I have every right to correct them and say,"Which one? The original or the slashed version?". Because, let's be real folks and stop deluding ourselves here, it's not that it won't "be the same Realms anymore", the truth is it's "not the Realms anymore". According to the uncaring designers, that is (or whoever ordered them to do this for the sake of generating WoW-Profit, the obvious market they're trying to appeal to). No matter how they butter it up. Seriously, I don't understand how some people blindly take everything some of them say to heart? I don't. They're paid to do that and will not bite the hand that feeds them. I mean, come on, they interview themselves for crying out loud. Listening to those podcasts I say to myself,"This is definitely rehearsed, these aren't legitimate hardcore questions. Have people call in like a radio show and I'll call and I'll ask the designers some REAL questions".
You have the question to ask any question you want, but not to define what others should think or see as the "correct" version. Do you go around screaming "You cant be a Pink Floyd fan, you like Division Bell !"
If 4ed. feels like a natural development for someone, then that is the Realms for them. I don't like most of what has been done during the entire 3ed. run, but I don't go around saying " Oh, so you like the Time of Trouble and the Horde? You heretic!" I don't hold my own tastes to be of enough weight for me to hold them as objective truths. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 07:19:02
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Unlike some of my recent posts from Rich, I'm cutting the whole post, which includes the questions and his answers and he posted this tonight.
"Whew! That's quite a list, Asgetrion. I think I've got decent answers for most of those, so I'll take a crack at it. Might not get to all of them right away, though.
Forgive me for snipping your post down:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgetrion View Post
Hi Rich!
1) The Spellplague. Originally describes as a “sickness afflicting magic-users and killing or driving them insane” (or something like that) now seems to be more like “Time of Troubles on steroids”. As MarkusTay already mused on another thread: “[i]What, exactly, is the definition of "The Spellplague"? Its certainly NOT a disease, or even a magical illness, so the word 'plague' is a misnomer. What the Spellplague IS is a 'poetic' descriptor for a period of time (not a tangible 'thing') when Mystra was killed, and the Weave disappeared.”
I might not have struck the right tone in the article. Spellplague isn't just a term for "the second Time of Troubles"; it's an actual phenomenon, a manifestation of magic that often appears as an aura of blue fire. You could bottle up a bit of Spellplague, take it somewhere, and let it go. It's like some sort of nanovirus whose eruptions/outbreaks appeared in many different places over the course of ten years or so, and still continue in a few very unlucky spots.
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2) When Mystra died the last time, how come the Weave didn’t dissolve then, and why did the Spellplague not take place? And if Mystryl was able to “recreate” herself as Mystra -– in an instant –- why did not Mystra do it when Cyric and Shar assaulted Dweomerheart?
Not to give a pat answer here, but I'd simply say that Shar, having observed the deaths of Mystryl and Mystra, realized that she needed to follow a very specific process when she arranged Midnight's murder, or else the goddess of magic would simply re-create herself. So Shar chose a method that hadn't been tried before and prevented such a rebirth.
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3) I may be wrong, but since Mystra died and the Weave “dissolved”, how come not *all* “Epic” or “High Magic” Spells and “Mythal-like Magics” were affected?
I'd say because mythals and such things have a special self-sustaining, "looped" nature. They're described as living magics in many ways. They have a lifeforce (of sorts) all their own, and I'd say that's what sustained them. But I don't know if we've specifically decided that is the reason, I'm just offering some speculation.
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4) Along the same lines –- when the Shadow Weave dissolved, too, why did the Shade not lose their spellcasting abilities or were not driven insane? Why did the City of Shade not crash to ground? Just because it had a “Mythallar”? I point to my previous concern –- wasn’t this Mythallar part of the Weave?
Because the Shadow Weave isn't the Weave, and does not actually rely on the Weave's existence. It's an alternate "interface," and was not directly damaged by Mystra's death. Although I think it's fair to guess that there might have been "blowback" Shar didn't expect, and the Spellplague didn't necessarily respect Shadow Weave users caught in its path.
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7) I also seem to recall that the Weave upholds all life on Toril and all living things are connected to the Weave (I may remember incorrectly, but this might be something Ed has said on Candlekeep?) and if it collapses, *all life* on Toril should *perish*. I’m not sure if I remember correctly, but if I do, is there any particular reason why this should not have happened?
Because total planetary death wouldn't be very useful to us? As far as I know, nothing about Realms says that the Weave *has* to be present for life to exist. If we ever said something like that before, I think we were wrong to do so, or else we've been portraying antimagic zones and dead magic zones all wrong for years.
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8) So why did the Walking Statues go on a “rampage”, if by my logic either Waterdeep should have been *fully* protected *or* the rest of the Sword Coast (BG included) should have been utterly wiped out?
Even if the Spellplague did not directly impinge in the area of ancient wards, powerful individuals driven mad or infected outside such wards sometimes walked into the protected places and then blew stuff up. Or so I would guess. Maybe the "animate the walking statues" idea was the work of a mighty archmage who had a really bad idea before adventurers stopped his plan.
Quote:
10) Thymanther. I thought the Dragonborn were *already* introduced into Realmslore in ‘Dragons of Faerûn’ as children of Bahamut and Tiamat?
That's an unfortunate coincidence; when naming the new PC race developed for 4e, our developers settled on the best available name from 3e. The dragonborn from Races of the Dragon introduced in Dragons of Faerun aren't necessarily the dragonborn of 4e.
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12) Were Bards affected by the Spellplague, too? And what are you going to do with them (as FR has traditionally always had many bard NPCs) if there is no Bard class in PHB? And yet –- did the Spellplague affect Sorcerers, Arcane Archers, Bladesingers, Assassins, et al. or just the Wizards?
Any Weave users, I'd say. But don't worry, bards are around in 4e. If they're not in the Player's Handbook we'll have them available soon after online or in another sourcebook. You can assume bards are still around.
Sorry you're disappointed, Asgetrion, but I hope I've convinced you that there is at least some small chance we might not be completely inept. Thanks for your thoughtful post, and I hope you'll reserve final judgment until you see all the pieces together in one place." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 08:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
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And for the record, I'm one of a few WoW players on these boards, so I'm also tired of seeing that game tossed around as a insult. :) Can we also please tone that down a bit, some of us DO actually enjoy WoW and other online games. :)
I think South Park have nicely portrayed WoW players in one of their episodes - recommended viewing. 
I keep teasing my players with that one! LOL! (I have yet to embrace WoW... I refuse!!! Oblivion is as far as I'm willing to go! no monthly fees for this cat!  ) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 11:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Quote:
4) Along the same lines –- when the Shadow Weave dissolved, too, why did the Shade not lose their spellcasting abilities or were not driven insane? Why did the City of Shade not crash to ground? Just because it had a “Mythallar”? I point to my previous concern –- wasn’t this Mythallar part of the Weave?
Because the Shadow Weave isn't the Weave, and does not actually rely on the Weave's existence. It's an alternate "interface," and was not directly damaged by Mystra's death. Although I think it's fair to guess that there might have been "blowback" Shar didn't expect, and the Spellplague didn't necessarily respect Shadow Weave users caught in its path.
How the hell can a shadow of something exist independently of it? I thought part of the exercise of the Sellplague (spelling deliberate) was to get rid of this problematic thing -- so why didn't they do it? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 12:10:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Quote:
4) Along the same lines –- when the Shadow Weave dissolved, too, why did the Shade not lose their spellcasting abilities or were not driven insane? Why did the City of Shade not crash to ground? Just because it had a “Mythallar”? I point to my previous concern –- wasn’t this Mythallar part of the Weave?
Because the Shadow Weave isn't the Weave, and does not actually rely on the Weave's existence. It's an alternate "interface," and was not directly damaged by Mystra's death. Although I think it's fair to guess that there might have been "blowback" Shar didn't expect, and the Spellplague didn't necessarily respect Shadow Weave users caught in its path.
How the hell can a shadow of something exist independently of it? I thought part of the exercise of the Sellplague (spelling deliberate) was to get rid of this problematic thing -- so why didn't they do it?
That's east Wooly!
Once you "jump the shark" it Is just a small thing to just start making up crap as you go along.
It really is much more efficent than study, research and hard work! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 12:41:59
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Having now read all about 4E FR, all I can say is "Yuck!"  
I think I'll go back to 1E |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 13:10:00
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well ... i most admit that i easily could buy 4e 'core' books ... but as far as i've read it becomes less and less likely that i would touch 4e FR with a 10 foot pole
what i've seen for 4e is largely interesting ... but the way its tweaked in 4e FR to get the pieces to fit together scores a grand 0 on a 1-100 scale in my opinion |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 13:13:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How the hell can a shadow of something exist independently of it? I thought part of the exercise of the Sellplague (spelling deliberate) was to get rid of this problematic thing -- so why didn't they do it?
I think its pretty obvious now that the sellplague isn't a reboot or a new time of troubles its an excuse to erase the 3/4 of the realms they don't like. |
“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 13:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus (snip) sellplague
Now, that's what I call a Freudian slip! :) |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 13:34:56
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I think its pretty obvious now that the sellplague isn't a reboot or a new time of troubles its an excuse to erase the 3/4 of the realms they don't like.
[/quote]
now that is about the most sensible thing I have heard in a long time about 4e |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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I Am Not A Bear
Acolyte
Canada
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 14:26:01
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I keep hearing that this 'simplification' of the system/setting is an attempt to appeal to a new generation of players, but IMO, the 14-18 year old demographic their shooting have no real interest in sitting down together and playing DnD. It takes a lot of time and more effort than sitting down in front of your comptuer and chasing the 'phat lewtz' in WoW, LOTRO, etc, etc. No offense to the players out there, but in a battle between a pen & paper game versus an online game such as WoW, the latter is going to win out in the end. I don't see how WOTC expects 4E to become this commercial success in this day and age. Times have changed and so are the ways games are played. Yea, you're going to have people who do both, but those people are in the slim minority.
To put it succintly, I just don't see how the average teenage that WOTC is trying to draw in is going to want to play 4E. Not with all the other gaming options out there. It takes tiem and effort to get the reward out of DnD, far more than what it takes to get the reward out of other games. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 15:30:13
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quote:
Originally posted by I Am Not A Bear
I keep hearing that this 'simplification' of the system/setting is an attempt to appeal to a new generation of players, but IMO, the 14-18 year old demographic their shooting have no real interest in sitting down together and playing DnD. It takes a lot of time and more effort than sitting down in front of your comptuer and chasing the 'phat lewtz' in WoW, LOTRO, etc, etc. No offense to the players out there, but in a battle between a pen & paper game versus an online game such as WoW, the latter is going to win out in the end. I don't see how WOTC expects 4E to become this commercial success in this day and age. Times have changed and so are the ways games are played. Yea, you're going to have people who do both, but those people are in the slim minority.
To put it succintly, I just don't see how the average teenage that WOTC is trying to draw in is going to want to play 4E. Not with all the other gaming options out there. It takes tiem and effort to get the reward out of DnD, far more than what it takes to get the reward out of other games.
I've been saying that ages ago, but you are right, newer and cooler D&D will not really improve the playability with the MMORPG folks, unless they already play. That being said it makes me wonder why they (WotC) have not seen it more advisable to look back to the past. There was a reason (I think) why TSR kept the D&D line floating for more than 10 years alongside AD&D. D&D was simpler and easier to learn with less rules attached to it than AD&D.
Instead of revising the system outright they should have done something to attract new players, an easy to grasp system that does not require to read roughly 700 pages of rules (PHB & DMG) before one could play.
I have the feeling that them $$$-counters cannot see that far ahead, and all the demographics missed one thing: MMORPGs do not require a whole lot of reading to play. IF they want to attract a new crowd they will have to create (In addition to the advanced version!) a simple, easy to learn and quickly to play version that is on top of all that also cheap. (funny thing is, since Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde also used my suggestion of dividing the module in different booklets, it might well be that we can expect a BD&D soon with seperate support)
To gain new players you have to make access EASY, and WotC has not done that so far. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:12:23
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quote:
Because the Shadow Weave isn't the Weave, and does not actually rely on the Weave's existence. .
quote:
How the hell can a shadow of something exist independently of it? I thought part of the exercise of the Sellplague (spelling deliberate) was to get rid of this problematic thing -- so why didn't they do it?
I concur entirely with Wooly here - Rich is saying that the shadow weave is not an 'echo' of the true weave? oh come on, to say its a different 'interface' is nonsense and is quite patronising IMO.
Why not say "I created shadow weave for the Birthright setting, and as its my baby I want to keep it. Plus if we don't keep it then the whole of the Shade nonsense that we created for 3.x will also have to be ditched, and the Shade are 'cool' and we need 'cool' bad guys in the game that we created rather than further developing existing bad guy organsiations that someone else *cough* - Ed - *cough* created and served the Realms so well in its official printed form for a dozen years or so.....
I am quite disappointed that Rich thinks he can backfill a reason for the shadow weave not disappearing by saying what he did, without most players saying "Huh???". I would much rather him say, "We took a design decision to keep the shadow weave because we want to keep it" at least he (they) would be honest.
I have to assume from Rich's statement that Shar has created a whole new magic interface on her own for her to use just because she can.
So my questions are:
1)Have none of the other Powers noticed this?
2) Whats to stop any other power doing the same? (this is a major can of worms, if any power can create a <<name of chosing>> weave of their own for their own followers to cast magic then whats to stop them?)
Just my thoughts
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:12:46
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Hmm, we were told Shadow Weave as introduced in 3.X was considered a design error. What we might have to look forward to is a fixed Shadow Weave in 4th Edition. Rather hard sale for me, AO also allows Shar to control Shadow Weave with no interference, but does nothing about the Weave disappearing.
Not well explained yet and for this it is wait and see. What we might get is a fixed Shadow Weave and other magics that replace the Weave. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 14 Jan 2008 17:15:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:22:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I have the feeling that them $$$-counters cannot see that far ahead, and all the demographics missed one thing: MMORPGs do not require a whole lot of reading to play.
That's a good point. I have coworkers that are utterly dedicated WoW players, playing several nights a week for at least 3 or 4 hours at a time, and playing more on days off. And the only reading they do is WoW related. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:22:38
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| There have been inconsistent descriptions of the Shadow Weave, but none of them suggest that it can exist independently of the Weave. This is certainly a retcon -- as is having Mystra destroyed while any of her Chosen survive, if there's no further explanation -- and Damian's reading of the attitude is far too plausible. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I have the feeling that them $$$-counters cannot see that far ahead, and all the demographics missed one thing: MMORPGs do not require a whole lot of reading to play.
That's a good point. I have coworkers that are utterly dedicated WoW players, playing several nights a week for at least 3 or 4 hours at a time, and playing more on days off. And the only reading they do is WoW related.
can we safely say there is no indication those people have a life outside of WoW? (no offence) |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by I Am Not A Bear
I keep hearing that this 'simplification' of the system/setting is an attempt to appeal to a new generation of players, but IMO, the 14-18 year old demographic their shooting have no real interest in sitting down together and playing DnD. It takes a lot of time and more effort than sitting down in front of your comptuer and chasing the 'phat lewtz' in WoW, LOTRO, etc, etc. No offense to the players out there, but in a battle between a pen & paper game versus an online game such as WoW, the latter is going to win out in the end. I don't see how WOTC expects 4E to become this commercial success in this day and age. Times have changed and so are the ways games are played. Yea, you're going to have people who do both, but those people are in the slim minority.
To put it succintly, I just don't see how the average teenage that WOTC is trying to draw in is going to want to play 4E. Not with all the other gaming options out there. It takes tiem and effort to get the reward out of DnD, far more than what it takes to get the reward out of other games.
Good points. That's a huge advantage to WoW and other online games: you can easily play for hours, by yourself and on your own schedule. And if you want to group with others, you're coordinating with other people, who simply have to be home at the same time. It's easier to coordinate schedules, and geography is not a limiting factor. And since everyone is home, neither is transportation. And for teenage players, they're already home, so no worries about curfews. Lastly, no one person has to take the time to write the adventure and get everyone motivated.
These are all huge advantages of online games.
I've not gotten to play D&D in years, because my gaming group had a hard time getting a set schedule together. Even now, with most of us having regular jobs with set hours, it's still difficult to arrange as much as a movie night, especially with kids being in the picture now, and one couple having to drive an hour to get here...
WoW, in particular, does involve strategy, and picking skills and such... But there's no need to think about the backstory of your character, or his motivation. You don't have to interact with NPCs save to get quests, goodies, and repairs. There's no problem-solving beyond maximizing DPS or figuring out how to down a boss. Essentially, there is little thought to playing the game. Go here, grind. Go there, grind. Run to this place. Grind.
I'm close to bailing on WoW, because it's just too boring for me.
And yet, the common conception (and I, as a WoW player, share this conception), is that WotC is trying to cash in on the craze that WoW and other games have become. But online games and tabletop games are totally separate beasts! Trying to boost one by stealing from the other is like trying to improve a car by stealing design features from a bicycle.
I remember them trying to cash in on another huge craze... Anyone else still have their Spellfire cards? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jan 2008 17:39:56 |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:36:52
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Further to my previous post, now that I'm over the shock (well maybe just a little bit!) I can gather my thoughts a bit better. I feel as though a good friend has just died - D&D has been a part of my life for the last 30 years & FR for the last 20 years. I find myself thinking that there should be a wake for the game & world I loved so much. I can't see myself picking up 4E - everything I read about it just makes me more & more depressed. I may still pick up the FRCG - if only so that I can understand the upcoming novels (although I live in hope that I can mine it for useful information).
My campaign in still in 1370, so I've got some time still to go - the spellplague may still happen, but it will not be any where near as deadly.
(Although I said I would go back to 1E, I realy meant that I'd go back to my hybred system (1E/C&C - with a touch of 2E,3/3.5E,Hackmaster & BECMI), I have enough adventures to convert to keep us going for so time to come!) |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
There have been inconsistent descriptions of the Shadow Weave, but none of them suggest that it can exist independently of the Weave. This is certainly a retcon -- as is having Mystra destroyed while any of her Chosen survive, if there's no further explanation -- and Damian's reading of the attitude is far too plausible.
And if the Sellplague flowed around areas with mythals and such, then it could have done the same for the flying cities. There's no need for a retcon there...
If the Shadow Weave still exists in 4E FR, that will be another major strike against the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I have the feeling that them $$$-counters cannot see that far ahead, and all the demographics missed one thing: MMORPGs do not require a whole lot of reading to play.
That's a good point. I have coworkers that are utterly dedicated WoW players, playing several nights a week for at least 3 or 4 hours at a time, and playing more on days off. And the only reading they do is WoW related.
can we safely say there is no indication those people have a life outside of WoW? (no offence)
They're all nice guys, and all but one of them has kids... It's just that WoW is about all that they do, when they have the spare time. Even if I wanted to play as much as them, I couldn't -- because I also like to spend time with my fiancée, and even with the loss of most of my books, I'm still accumulating a nice backlog of things to read (I still haven't finished reading the Anauroch module, because I keep getting sidetracked by novels, manga, and other game stuff!). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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I Am Not A Bear
Acolyte
Canada
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:53:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by I Am Not A Bear
I keep hearing that this 'simplification' of the system/setting is an attempt to appeal to a new generation of players, but IMO, the 14-18 year old demographic their shooting have no real interest in sitting down together and playing DnD. It takes a lot of time and more effort than sitting down in front of your comptuer and chasing the 'phat lewtz' in WoW, LOTRO, etc, etc. No offense to the players out there, but in a battle between a pen & paper game versus an online game such as WoW, the latter is going to win out in the end. I don't see how WOTC expects 4E to become this commercial success in this day and age. Times have changed and so are the ways games are played. Yea, you're going to have people who do both, but those people are in the slim minority.
To put it succintly, I just don't see how the average teenage that WOTC is trying to draw in is going to want to play 4E. Not with all the other gaming options out there. It takes tiem and effort to get the reward out of DnD, far more than what it takes to get the reward out of other games.
Good points. That's a huge advantage to WoW and other online games: you can easily play for hours, by yourself and on your own schedule. And if you want to group with others, you're coordinating with other people, who simply have to be home at the same time. It's easier to coordinate schedules, and geography is not a limiting factor. And since everyone is home, neither is transportation. And for teenage players, they're already home, so no worries about curfews. Lastly, no one person has to take the time to write the adventure and get everyone motivated.
These are all huge advantages of online games.
I've not gotten to play D&D in years, because my gaming group had a hard time getting a set schedule together. Even now, with most of us having regular jobs with set hours, it's still difficult to arrange as much as a movie night, especially with kids being in the picture now, and one couple having to drive an hour to get here...
WoW, in particular, does involve strategy, and picking skills and such... But there's no need to think about the backstory of your character, or his motivation. You don't have to interact with NPCs save to get quests, goodies, and repairs. There's no problem-solving beyond maximizing DPS or figuring out how to down a boss. Essentially, there is little thought to playing the game. Go here, grind. Go there, grind. Run to this place. Grind.
I'm close to bailing on WoW, because it's just too boring for me.
And yet, the common conception (and I, as a WoW player, share this conception), is that WotC is trying to cash in on the craze that WoW and other games have become. But online games and tabletop games are totally separate beasts! Trying to boost one by stealing from the other is like trying to improve a car by stealing design features from a bicycle.
I remember them trying to cash in on another huge craze... Anyone else still have their Spellfire cards?
See, I got my fix through playing on a NWN RP server set in a FR region (Silver Marches). All my fixes were covered. :P
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 17:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How the hell can a shadow of something exist independently of it? I thought part of the exercise of the Sellplague (spelling deliberate) was to get rid of this problematic thing -- so why didn't they do it?
I was thinking the same thing. Also, I thought it was "canon" that the Shadow Weave was not independent of the Weave.
I DO have to give Rich credit for being, as always, very polite to all in spite of some of the flames (yes, flames) that get leveled at him in that thread.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Jan 2008 17:59:31 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 18:02:53
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It appears Shades will still have access to something called Shadow Weave, but perhaps this like dragonborn is the same name to describe something different. *shrugs*
What concerns me more is that after what 30 months of planned change, answers are "I am not sure" how we will explain it. We were told about 90 percent of the Realms were already set (things like deities that die, the spellplauge, the more to Points of Lights in a darker world), but they can not explain yet how they got from point A to point B in any believable way.
The Weave gone does explain why elves age quicker now, elves were part of the Weave (We have that from Ed, I think it is also in print a few places as well) and we did have at least from Ed that Shadow Weave could work in areas that the Weave did no longer work. There is precident then that Weave stopped did not prevent Shadow Weave from working. There again it was, IIRC, Ed saying there are some places that the Weave would work where Shadow Weave was a null zone (just those would be rarer because fewer used Shadow to disrupt the flow of magic by using powerful magics). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 18:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ateth Istarlin
I realy meant that I'd go back to my hybred system (1E/C&C - with
Alea Iacta Est my friend
4E is not aimed at us 'oldies' really, the sales they will generate from us will be fairly small as I have loads of FR stuff from the OGBS onwards (and all the other stuff I bought before the Realms arrived as an 'official product), so I don't need to pick up a new supplement on <<insert town/region name as appropriate>>. I will carefully choose 4E products and will only buy stuff that I get a chance to look at and enjoy flicking through.
4E is aimed at the playstation/NWN/WOW generation, WoTC need those new gamers to buy the product to ensure a longer future for the company and hobby. The marketeers are not completely stupid, they know that someone with nearly 30 years experience in the hobby is not going to buy any old nonsense they put out because as a consumer they don't need to as they have lots of other material to use already. But new 'kids' with little or no previous books/supplements etc will be interested and will buy most of the new releases as they get into the hobby.
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 18:33:57
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
4E is aimed at the playstation/NWN/WOW generation...
Now now, as pointed out before some "older" Realms fans also love video games. I play NWN (which, btw, is not an MMO), and most of the games I've played using the NWN engine haven't been "mindless". I have great Realms memories from Neverwinter Nights.
I do agree that D&D now seems to be trying to attract the MMO audience (and I'm not going to use WoW as an insult--that kind of gameplay and is legitimate and has a place just like D&D). And like some other people, I'm skeptical of that approach, because MMOs and D&D are "different animals", and the people who love MMOs may not want to pull themselves away from the computer to play D&D, for various (already discussed) reasons. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 18:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
4E is aimed at the playstation/NWN/WOW generation...
Now now, as pointed out before some "older" Realms fans also love video games. I play NWN (which, btw, is not an MMO), and most of the games I've played using the NWN engine haven't been "mindless". I have great Realms memories from Neverwinter Nights.
I do agree that D&D now seems to be trying to attract the MMO audience (and I'm not going to use WoW as an insult--that kind of gameplay and is legitimate and has a place just like D&D). And like some other people, I'm skeptical of that approach, because MMOs and D&D are "different animals", and the people who love MMOs may not want to pull themselves away from the computer to play D&D, for various (already discussed) reasons.
Being a D&D gamer who also plays CRPGs and WoW, I totally agree with Rin.
Also, I still say that whether you are looking forward to or dreading the 4e Realms, or something in between, Ed has put (and is putting) a lot of work into the 4e Realms to try and make it an enjoyable place for us "Classic Realms" players to read about and play in. Also, the sales of the FRCG (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide) and maybe the FRPG (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide) are probably what will make the new version of the setting sink or sail. So, out of respect for Ed and the campaign setting that he created, I suggest that we all (whether we think we like the changes or think that we don't) saunter down to our local book/game/hobby stores when the books a good gander to make sure that it is or is not something that we want to invest in before decided whether or not to buy it. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 20:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
There have been inconsistent descriptions of the Shadow Weave, but none of them suggest that it can exist independently of the Weave.
My error, one does. I think I dismissed it because I couldn't reconcile it with the first sentence of the same write-up. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 00:43:30
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The latest bombshell -
After a little back-and-forth between myself and Rich Baker, it appears that the Shadow Weave is NOT dependent upon Mystra's Weave, and the info in the super-modules is Incorrect and no longer valid!
According to him, as per the Ask the Designers Thread at WotC, the older lore from Magic of Faerûn is the correct version.
This in response to him explaining why Shade was unaffected by the Spellplague...
Expect the Shadow weave in 4e in one incarnation or another.
So now we have the Shadow weave, and no Mystra's Weave...
Doesn't that just tickle us all pink? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 01:07:08
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Here's Rich's post.
"Hmmm. In all honesty I can't explain why the Shadowdale sidebar says that. The parenthetical is a clear contradiction of the information on Magic of Faerun page 10. I'm inclined to regard the Shadowdale sidebar as being in error in this regard. My apologies for the confusion.
While I did work on part of Shadowdale, that wasn't my material."
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The latest bombshell -
After a little back-and-forth between myself and Rich Baker, it appears that the Shadow Weave is NOT dependent upon Mystra's Weave, and the info in the super-modules is Incorrect and no longer valid!
According to him, as per the Ask the Designers Thread at WotC, the older lore from Magic of Faerûn is the correct version.
This in response to him explaining why Shade was unaffected by the Spellplague...
Expect the Shadow weave in 4e in one incarnation or another.
So now we have the Shadow weave, and no Mystra's Weave...
Doesn't that just tickle us all pink?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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4e FR
