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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 15:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Reading that official "Proclimation"...
was like reading the obituary for one of my oldest, dearest friends.
Yeah, that's one way of putting it.
quote:
I do not know when I will post again, I need some time.
Love to all my friends here.
I'm so sad to hear that. Take care, and come back soon.
I am most assuredly not leaving the 'keep. After answering a few emails and PM's, I had best try to explain my feelings.
What I meant was that I did not know when I would post in this scroll about 4e FR again. I did not want to say anything rash and do not want to hijack Kuje's excellent scroll and work here bringing us this information!
I am not a quitter and will not abandon the Realms or my many friends here! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Do you also pick which political candidate you'll vote for, based solely on their commercials? Because that's what you're talking about doing here -- basing the decision on whether or not to buy an entire product line based on a page and a half of text. That's not making an informed decision.
I try my best not to make any decisions until I have all of the info. And that's what I'm continuing to advocate. Sure, I have finally started to come down on the nay-sayer side, because of this preview, but I'm still going to give the FRCG a fair shake. That may be the last new Realms product I buy, but I feel that I owe it to the setting to at least give it a shot.
Like I said, I respect your opinion, and applaud your faith in the management of WotC. I, too, hope with all my heart that there's lots of Ed's lore in there to make the book worthwhile to all you guys still planning to purchase it, but I've personally stopped hoping it would be useful for my pre-Spellplague campaigns and have decided to stay in 3.5.
I don't think the political candidate analogy quite hits the mark here, as in our case, there's no choice between product A, B or C. It's "vote for C or we don't want to see your face around here no more..." (i.e. a product has been put forward in a certain way, whether you like it or not) |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:13:03
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I quite like what I read in Rich's post today... but it's not "my" Realms and I'm still not interested in buying it. However, it does sound like a good campaign setting. Maybe if it was released as a Word document I could just replace all the FR names with other names and then I could use it... but it's not "my" FR.
We still don't know whether the 4E version of FR (hmmm, what should we call it when it's clearly not FR...) will address the real problems that prohibit new DMs and players from coming to the world:
- Will there be a decent introductory product? There hasn't been for decades. There needs to be a proper player's guide like a lot of campaign worlds now have (including Eberron... but, unlike Eberron, hopefully the player's guide won't actually expose campaign secrets). Also, a series of introductory adventures that are well-written and have nothing to do with novels (especially future novels... still can't believe it took four years and six novels to resolve the backstory for City of the Spider Queen).
- Will there be areas that won't be affected by novels? This I think is really key. A DM, especially a new DM, needs to feel that they have creative freedom in "their" world.
The reality is that the novels are more important to the bottom line than the game world so I think, before long, we will be seeing the same sorts of complaints about FR4E as have been seen for previous editions. Who will be the new character that is accused of being an author's Mary Sue? ;) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:22:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
do not want to hijack Kuje's excellent scroll and work here bringing us this information!
I am not a quitter and will not abandon the Realms or my many friends here!
It's already been hijacked. :) Especially with these constant debates about people being annoyed that some of us have decided that 4e isn't for us. I don't understand why they keep pushing and pushing that we don't have enough info to decide. I have enough info and I know that 4e is not for me.
But I've been keeping my mouth shut about it but these repeated debates are starting to get on my nerves. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:29:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
do not want to hijack Kuje's excellent scroll and work here bringing us this information!
I am not a quitter and will not abandon the Realms or my many friends here!
It's already been hijacked. :) Especially with these constant debates about people being annoyed that some of us have decided that 4e isn't for us. I don't understand why they keep pushing and pushing that we don't have enough info to decide. I have enough info and I know that 4e is not for me.
But I've been keeping my mouth shut about it but these repeated debates are starting to get on my nerves.
Well after reading hundreds of your posts, I would love to hear your opinion of what they have done. If you ever decide to share it that is. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Cyril Lokner
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:40:07
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I'm most likely not going to pick up the FRCG, I'm certainly not moving my games to 4th edition, but the keep is my home, and I love the Forgotten Realms, so I've never considered not coming to the keep due to the timeshift or 4th edition. I hope to see people from across the spectrum of Realms fandom, so long as we can all come together to discuss the Realms.
Also, I understand your point, but I would never call anyone that buys 4th edition Realms products somehow "unfaithful" to the "true" Realms. I fully expect a lot of real Realms fans to want to pick this up. Heck, I want to pick it up, but I'm seriously torn because I don't want to tell WOTC that whatever they do to the Realms, I'll buy it.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyril Lokner
I've read the Mace rants. I've read the "Countdown". I've read a lot. Many individuals have been a step ahead of what gets posted officially by WotC and everytime it seems that they put another nail in the coffin for the nay-sayer side (as Wooly puts it). While I've certainly been an unknown here for the past two years, I've been reading these forums for so long that I feel like I'm part of this community and the don't-buy-4e-if-you-are-a-real-Realms-fan rhetoric kind of scares me. Not because I might be labeled a Realms hater for purchasing 4e, but because some of the individuals whose insight and knowledge I've come to admire might disappear from these forums. Stay with us. While selfish, I need you for your expertise in your areas of interest and if that expertise ends at 1369 DR, 1385 DR, or 1479 DR, it is still valid and highly valuable.
"The Mace rants" hehehe....I rather like that, and fear not, I ain't leaving, but I won't comment on anything 4e FR cuz I won't have any of it. Like you didn't know that already 
I will develop my own Realms-timeline from now on, although since my players of 2 groups are still in 1367 and 1366 I guess I can wait a while with that. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:47:56
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Rather than buy 4e FRCS, you should just send Ed a check for what you think his cut would have been along with a thank you card!
It may take longer than buying it, but you can glean Ed's contributions from without buying it! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 17:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyril Lokner
I've read the Mace rants. I've read the "Countdown". I've read a lot. Many individuals have been a step ahead of what gets posted officially by WotC and everytime it seems that they put another nail in the coffin for the nay-sayer side (as Wooly puts it). While I've certainly been an unknown here for the past two years, I've been reading these forums for so long that I feel like I'm part of this community and the don't-buy-4e-if-you-are-a-real-Realms-fan rhetoric kind of scares me. Not because I might be labeled a Realms hater for purchasing 4e, but because some of the individuals whose insight and knowledge I've come to admire might disappear from these forums. Stay with us. While selfish, I need you for your expertise in your areas of interest and if that expertise ends at 1369 DR, 1385 DR, or 1479 DR, it is still valid and highly valuable.
If someone calls themselves a Realms-fan then that is what they are in my opinion. No matter what edition or time period they prefer. In my view that is how Candlekeep has worked until now and how I hope it will continue. I am probably among the most conservative here, but I have no intention of leaving or say anything against anyone for preferring another version of the Realms. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by JorkensIf someone calls themselves a Realms-fan then that is what they are in my opinion. No matter what edition or time period they prefer. In my view that is how Candlekeep has worked until now and how I hope it will continue. I am probably among the most conservative here, but I have no intention of leaving or say anything against anyone for preferring another version of the Realms.
But therein lies the problem. The 4th Edition Forgotten Realms IS NOT Forgotten Realms at all, not even remotely what it used to be and what it should've been aspiring to except in name only. It's a reboot, a whole new campaign setting with just the stinking logo to reel in the cash.
So when someone who gets into 4e Realms and says,"I'm a Realms fan", I have every right to correct them and say,"Which one? The original or the slashed version?". Because, let's be real folks and stop deluding ourselves here, it's not that it won't "be the same Realms anymore", the truth is it's "not the Realms anymore". According to the uncaring designers, that is (or whoever ordered them to do this for the sake of generating WoW-Profit, the obvious market they're trying to appeal to). No matter how they butter it up. Seriously, I don't understand how some people blindly take everything some of them say to heart? I don't. They're paid to do that and will not bite the hand that feeds them. I mean, come on, they interview themselves for crying out loud. Listening to those podcasts I say to myself,"This is definitely rehearsed, these aren't legitimate hardcore questions. Have people call in like a radio show and I'll call and I'll ask the designers some REAL questions".
I'll never forget Scott, a former hobby store employee from when I was 16 years old and deep into 2nd Edition when WotC bought out TSR. His exact words were,"Prepare for the end of D&D sometime soon." Well, who would've thought that D&D managed to last 8 years before WotC decided to hack it apart, but it's finally happening.
And, I'm sorry, no matter what new edition comes out D&D won't be as mighty in revenue as WoW. It's because of something called "advertisement". WoW has a freaking Toyota commercial! In China there's a Coke commercial! Commericialising is one of the biggest source of new customers, and WotC isn't and hasn't been doing any of that. Everyone I know that got into D&D got into D&D because they played in a "grognard's" gaming session. It's us grognards that generate the fanbase for WotC, not their OGL, not their cool new logos and art, but US. And to split the fanbase this much is just...insane.
One last thing I need to point out that's very important.
People say, the undecided ones that is, "I'll buy the core books or the FR book and see for myself." I highly suggest you do not do that. After all, what if you go ahead and increase WotC's revenu a good $90 ($130 if you get the FR book) per undecided customer and then find out...I really hate this. Well, WotC will never know that because you just ponied up to their market and now they're going to have skewed marketing figures assuming,"Wow, people must love this, look at all the sales. Let's keep going!"
So, please, do the smart thing and read the 4th Edition SRD (for the core rules), and then go to your hobby or bookstore, get some coffee and read through the FR book. Don't support WotC before you're absolutely sure it's something you want to support. |
Edited by - Razz on 13 Jan 2008 22:18:21 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Wooly was (I presume) talking about the assertion that Ed Greenwood is working on the most popular and detailed parts of the setting (ie. Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dalelands) even though everything we've heard so far suggests the opposite.
Waterdeep and the Dalelands were actually my assignments. I asked for and received the Moonshaes as well. My work on Waterdeep consisted primarily of distilling Ed's massive 100 page 50,000 word document on Waterdeep (circa 1479) down to 6 pages. Not an easy task at all but one I was more than happy to undertake.
Thanks for the information (and good for you as well, btw). However, if Ed happened to write a 50,000 document on Waterdeep circa 1479, doesn't that mean he did have a hand in detailing that part of the setting? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm most likely not going to pick up the FRCG, I'm certainly not moving my games to 4th edition, but the keep is my home, and I love the Forgotten Realms, so I've never considered not coming to the keep due to the timeshift or 4th edition. I hope to see people from across the spectrum of Realms fandom, so long as we can all come together to discuss the Realms.
Indeed, I too consider Candlekeep a kind of "home" and a safe haven.
quote:
Also, I understand your point, but I would never call anyone that buys 4th edition Realms products somehow "unfaithful" to the "true" Realms. I fully expect a lot of real Realms fans to want to pick this up. Heck, I want to pick it up, but I'm seriously torn because I don't want to tell WOTC that whatever they do to the Realms, I'll buy it.
Same here--I want to see what Ed writes, and there may be elements of the setting that I'd want to make use of on, say, another world or in another setting. But at the same time, I don't want to "vote" for the changes I dislike with my money. No way. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Rather than buy 4e FRCS, you should just send Ed a check for what you think his cut would have been along with a thank you card!
It may take longer than buying it, but you can glean Ed's contributions from without buying it!
That's actually a really nice idea, although I'm not sure if he's the type who would accept "donations" like that. Maybe ask him on his thread first? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Jan 2008 22:32:05 |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Rather than buy 4e FRCS, you should just send Ed a check for what you think his cut would have been along with a thank you card!
It may take longer than buying it, but you can glean Ed's contributions from without buying it!
That's actually a really nice idea, although I'm not sure if he's the type who would accept "donations" like that. Maybe ask him on his thread first?
May I suggest a minor change? Change it from donations - which sounds a bit like charity, to tribute which would be more suitable!
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:52:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
May I suggest a minor change? Change it from donations - which sounds a bit like charity, to tribute which would be more suitable!
Good point...but still, the question is whether or not Ed Greenwood is the type to just accept money from people like that, even if people mean it as a compliment. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 23:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
May I suggest a minor change? Change it from donations - which sounds a bit like charity, to tribute which would be more suitable!
Good point...but still, the question is whether or not Ed Greenwood is the type to just accept money from people like that, even if people mean it as a compliment.
I dont support the idea and wouldn't support it anyway. I just thought tribute would be a more appropriate term as it expresses fan gratitude for Ed's efforts.
Having met Ed when he was in Australia (and gamed in a session run by him - back in 95 or 96 I think) I've got to say that he was one of the nicest and approachable people I've met and he reached out and engaged with everyone that he met.
A good example of his generosity to fans was that he actually met a group of guys who couldn't get a place in that convention to play in his session and he went around to their place that evening (after having run sessions all day) and ran the session for them privately. How many game designers would do this nowadays? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 23:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Wooly was (I presume) talking about the assertion that Ed Greenwood is working on the most popular and detailed parts of the setting (ie. Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dalelands) even though everything we've heard so far suggests the opposite.
Waterdeep and the Dalelands were actually my assignments. I asked for and received the Moonshaes as well. My work on Waterdeep consisted primarily of distilling Ed's massive 100 page 50,000 word document on Waterdeep (circa 1479) down to 6 pages. Not an easy task at all but one I was more than happy to undertake.
Thanks for the information (and good for you as well, btw). However, if Ed happened to write a 50,000 document on Waterdeep circa 1479, doesn't that mean he did have a hand in detailing that part of the setting?
My guess on that is...he knew of the changes since 2004 or 2005. He had time to prepare...he advised against it, check one of his replies, and he also said when asked about the future of the Realms that he didn't wanna play in it... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 23:53:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
A good example of his generosity to fans was that he actually met a group of guys who couldn't get a place in that convention to play in his session and he went around to their place that evening (after having run sessions all day) and ran the session for them privately. How many game designers would do this nowadays?
Indeed, that was quite nice of him to go out of his way like that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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imis999
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 02:10:32
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My fear is when sales for 4th edition FR fail to meet 3rd edition, Wizards will blame it on a poor economy and not on a terrible design. Maybe they will abandon it by 2010 or 2011 and Ed and some partners can pick up the license.
My problem continues to be that there were so many plotlines throughout the setting just looking to be developed that now are just orphaned to what might have been. We get this "streamlined" and "simplified" setting that gets to keep the Forgotten Realms name. It's like a terrible divorce. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 02:11:28
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Alright, since this shot was not-so-thinly aimed at me...
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
It's already been hijacked. :) Especially with these constant debates about people being annoyed that some of us have decided that 4e isn't for us. I don't understand why they keep pushing and pushing that we don't have enough info to decide. I have enough info and I know that 4e is not for me.
But I've been keeping my mouth shut about it but these repeated debates are starting to get on my nerves.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a page and a half of text is enough info to abandon something I've been following for 20 years. We've had tens of thousands of pages to get us into this setting, and now people are throwing it away because of the smallest fraction of that amount.
There are still some good names on board. Or are you saying you don't trust Ed and people like Brian R James to try to give us something we'll still like? Never before have I seen such a good example of the phrase "O ye of little faith".
I have no problem with those who make an informed decision. Making a decision based on a freakin' teaser spot is not making an informed decision. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 02:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Do you also pick which political candidate you'll vote for, based solely on their commercials? Because that's what you're talking about doing here -- basing the decision on whether or not to buy an entire product line based on a page and a half of text. That's not making an informed decision.
I try my best not to make any decisions until I have all of the info. And that's what I'm continuing to advocate. Sure, I have finally started to come down on the nay-sayer side, because of this preview, but I'm still going to give the FRCG a fair shake. That may be the last new Realms product I buy, but I feel that I owe it to the setting to at least give it a shot.
Like I said, I respect your opinion, and applaud your faith in the management of WotC. I, too, hope with all my heart that there's lots of Ed's lore in there to make the book worthwhile to all you guys still planning to purchase it, but I've personally stopped hoping it would be useful for my pre-Spellplague campaigns and have decided to stay in 3.5.
I don't think the political candidate analogy quite hits the mark here, as in our case, there's no choice between product A, B or C. It's "vote for C or we don't want to see your face around here no more..." (i.e. a product has been put forward in a certain way, whether you like it or not)
I have no faith at all in the management of WotC. If they were worthy of that faith, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I have faith that maybe the people who have already proved themselves can give us something worthwhile.
I think my political analogy an apt one. We have been given the approximation of a single commercial. And people are making decisions on how they're going forward, based on that one commercial. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 02:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Alright, since this shot was not-so-thinly aimed at me...
I haedly believe it was aimed at you, others and myself have quoted Kuje fairy soon in the thread and he posted to the effect he would not be baited. That in rffect his role was one as a reporter. IAE Kuje was indeed not happy with side talk many pages ago. Until recently Kuje had not expressed any comment on changes, he was just a reporter. I extrapolated to the extend you were not happy with me. I suspect Kuje was not happy with my guesses either.quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
It's already been hijacked. :) Especially with these constant debates about people being annoyed that some of us have decided that 4e isn't for us. I don't understand why they keep pushing and pushing that we don't have enough info to decide. I have enough info and I know that 4e is not for me.
But I've been keeping my mouth shut about it but these repeated debates are starting to get on my nerves.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a page and a half of text is enough info to abandon something I've been following for 20 years. We've had tens of thousands of pages to get us into this setting, and now people are throwing it away because of the smallest fraction of that amount.
There are still some good names on board. Or are you saying you don't trust Ed and people like Brian R James to try to give us something we'll still like? Never before have I seen such a good example of the phrase "O ye of little faith".
I have no problem with those who make an informed decision. Making a decision based on a freakin' teaser spot is not making an informed decision.
It is not just the one article, reaction (at least mine) is based on a increasing list of changes that will occur.
Dead deities, new core classes and races, redefined Drow and so on. I have not collected them into a file however would suspect at least 10 pages as an outline has been posted by WotC employees and/or involved with the project.
Ten pages was enough to put Eberon on the final three list and awarded 10,000 USD. I will grant it is not yet up to 100 pages of info that won the grand trise, however 10 pages clearly provides the outline of what Realms plans are.
Oh there still can be things to like and things glad not to be gone.
The outline is not the total product, but when was an outline a 1/100th of a novel or source book? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 03:10:03
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Har! That's a bit more than most people I know base their political opinions on...
But seriously, although I agree with those points, I have to anticipate the FRCG with some trepidation. The teaser, and some of the dropped hints here and there, are almost enough to convince me that the 4e FR setting has the potential to be a great setting - one that I would surely enjoy. BUT, nothing I've seen yet has convinced me that it will still BE the Realms that I love now. <insert scene from Planet of the Apes where Charlton Heston rides past the Statue of Liberty at the end.>
We've been told repeatedly that this is all necessary to support the 4e magic system. I could buy that (and merely grit my teeth) if it was just Mystra getting axed and the resulting Spellplague. This doesn't seem to justify (to me at least, with alack of inside knowledge) the pantheon changes, NPC deaths, or the calendar advance.
I also have a hard time seeing hordes of WoW players and former-FR bashers suddenly plunking down a lot of hard cash for the FRCG just because a few designers have hyped it on their blog. If anything, they'll do exactly as I intend...wait until I see it at my FLGS, read it as thorougly as time permits, and make a PASS/FAIL decision at that point.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think my political analogy an apt one. We have been given the approximation of a single commercial. And people are making decisions on how they're going forward, based on that one commercial.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 03:44:45
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Nope, my post wasn't aimed at anyone, it was aimed at people in general who keep claiming that we don't have enough info to make a decision. Well, I have more then enough info to make a decision, if that doesn't make those people who have chosen to wait wait and see happy, that isn't my problem but please stop trying to push and push your decision onto us, it just gets more and more annoying.
If you desire to purchase the new setting then that is your choice but please, please, please, stop telling us that our feelings are misguided and that we are "wrong" to choose what we've chosen. It's insulting that you keep telling us that our decisions are wrong just because you believe that they are wrong. Well, I hate to say it but IT IS my choice and I made my choice, so stop badgering those who have decided something differently then what you decided.
Nor am I going to publicly comment on what I may and may not feel about game designers and or WOTC management or authors. So, this next line is actually directed towards Wooly and towards others who might wish me to publicly comment. No, I'm not going to comment if I have faith that Ed, Brian, or others, can write material that I'm interested in if it's for a setting that is no longer the setting I once knew and loved and that I have no desire to DM or play in.
Now, thats my last public word about this and Kentinal is right, (Wow I agree with Kentinal! That's rare!), I did ask a long time ago to keep these debates out of the thread, so today I just got tired of reading the bickering. And Kentinal is also right, I didn't just make my decision based on a page and a half of text and my decision is based on a lot of text that I've been reading, so please stop being so insulting towards those who have made our choice because we didn't base it on one piece of text.
And for the record, I'm one of a few WoW players on these boards, so I'm also tired of seeing that game tossed around as a insult. :) Can we also please tone that down a bit, some of us DO actually enjoy WoW and other online games. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jan 2008 04:36:56 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 05:03:23
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Hear, hear Kuje!
Nothing wrong with WoW: four of my seven players are avid WoW gamers, and strangely, none of them want to see D&D become a pen&paper version of WoW... that's why they still play D&D! there's still something D&D gives them that WoW can't... so this comes as a surprise to them or myself that WotC would like to remove that "D&D specialness that can't be translated on the computer..." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 05:07:21
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Up until a few months ago, I had three seperate WoW accounts (for me and my boys), so I agree WoW does not deserve all this bad press simply because people see it taking away D&D customers. For what it is, WoW does an excellent job. Its not a real RPG however, and that is what D&D is for - to Role Play. Most of the kinds of people who play don't want to play PnP games; they are just in it for the 'eye candy' (and Phat Lewtz). You can like one and still love the other - they are not mutually exclusive.
That being said, I like what I'm hearing about the 4e rules. As much as I dislike any sort of 'simplification' in a game that is supposed to simulate reality somewhat, anything that brings in new players (some of whom ARE intimidated by the complexity of the rules) is a good thing for our hobby. Like I said over at the WotC boards - if they took out something you liked in 3e, then just put it back in - it's still a D20 system.
I have no intention of moving my game forward (or backward, since my game takes place in 1390 DR), but I will use the 4e rules in the old setting. Since Eberron isn't changing one iota because of the new rules (according to James Wyatt), its obvious these changes were uneccessary for FR as well. The setting was drastically changed and moved forward because of WotC agenda, not because of the rules, so don't hate 4e because "it ruined the Realms" - that would be a lie. If you want to hate 4e Realms, thats a whole 'nother ball of wax. I can think of all sorts of reasons why some of these changes occurred, aside from the ones they're telling us, and I'm less happy with THAT then the actual changes themselves.
The way I see it now, we all have a golden opportunity ahead of us. Most folks campaigns are 5-15 years behind the current campaign date, so they need not worry about the new setting or the Spellplague. For those of us running in the current year (or ahead), think about the possibilities! WotC has made a very foolish mistake by skipping over the next century! The opportunities for adventure will increase a hundred fold during the Spellplagued Years, and my players and I are going to have a hell of a time riding it out!
Think of it - an entire century to play in, with all that wonderful previous lore still in play, with no novels and/or RSE's to mess with us... its almost like they did us a favor.
So, instead of feeling bad about these things, embrace the possibilities - we have three choices of flavor for FR now - Old World, Spellplagued, or 'New and Improved'.
Take your choice - its all good.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 05:47:23
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quote:
And for the record, I'm one of a few WoW players on these boards, so I'm also tired of seeing that game tossed around as a insult. :) Can we also please tone that down a bit, some of us DO actually enjoy WoW and other online games. :)
I think South Park have nicely portrayed WoW players in one of their episodes - recommended viewing. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 05:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip> but I will use the 4e rules in the old setting. <snip>
What do you see as an improvement of rules?quote:
The way I see it now, we all have a golden opportunity ahead of us. Most folks campaigns are 5-15 years behind the current campaign date,
Mosts folks?quote:
so they need not worry about the new setting or the Spellplague. For those of us running in the current year (or ahead), think about the possibilities! WotC has made a very foolish mistake by skipping over the next century! The opportunities for adventure will increase a hundred fold during the Spellplagued Years, and my players and I are going to have a hell of a time riding it out!
Think of it - an entire century to play in, with all that wonderful previous lore still in play, with no novels and/or RSE's to mess with us... its almost like they did us a favor.
So, instead of feeling bad about these things, embrace the possibilities - we have three choices of flavor for FR now - Old World, Spellplagued, or 'New and Improved'.
Take your choice - its all good.
Clearly for you the glass is filling. So be it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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4e FR
