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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 02:36:20
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| Ok. I'm glad I decided not to buy anything with a 4 on the cover. I'm not even going to borrow any of these changes as potential ideas for the future of my Realms campaign. Bye bye WotC! It was nice to meet you, and thank you for all the fish! |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 02:45:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm certainly liking the Dragonborn least of all, and some of the map changes seem a little 'funky'.
The Empire of Netheril is in two seperate places? With Cormyr, the Dalelands, and Cormanthor in the middle?
Personally, I would have made Anauroch one of those 'No-man's lands' they describe as "Plague-touched", and had the Shades move their city INTO Sembia to avoid all of the magical backlash occuring in Anauroch.
Then the desert becomes like Eberron's Mournlands, and the Shades get a 'solid' kingdom, that isn't spread all over the map. It just all seems so... messy. 
Well it gives them the opportunity to set up another RSE for the future - Empire of Shade has civil war between old kingdom (Anauroch) and new empire (Sembia) ends up 2 separate rivals... |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 03:17:50
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Sad sad news indeed...
They destroyed so many realms...realms I was hoping they would explore more in detail, but it will never be.
Just ****ing horrible. That's all I have to say about 4E Realms. It's not the same Realms anymore. It's leaving more than just a bad taste in my mouth. It's seriously making me depressed. My own D&D games have felt bland with all these changes to D&D itself, and suffering from it the worst, the Realms.
Maybe I should just go to Eberron right? After all...it's barely been touched by 4E changes. They said they'll deal with that as it comes along, why didn't they do it with the Realms?
Heck why couldn't they make the Realms really unique by just letting it keep some of the magic traditions from 3e? Guess not eh...why didn't they just keep everything the same with magic in 4E and just added FREE Reserve feats for the spellcasters? That would've solved everyone's problems and kept the magic still as close to traditional as possible.
But no...the way they work 4E is by destroying everything that reminds them of what was in 1E, 2E, and 3E. Ugh, it just sickens me so much. I'm going mad, sometimes, just thinking about the harm they're doing to the game and the campaign setting.
How do you guys deal with it? Do you suffer as much as I? Half as much? Am I just over-reacting? I sometimes daydream that I own 60% of the stock in D&D and I get to come in and say,"Don't you dare touch any of this. Keep it this way!"
*sigh*
You know, D&D was a game we could all go to because it was sometimes "escapism" for us when we were troubled by the Real World. But now...even our escapism world is being torn apart by the Real World's horrors... |
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I Am Not A Bear
Acolyte
Canada
14 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 03:44:27
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I'm still waiting to learn about what's happened to the Silver Marches. Apparently, the High Forest is still there.
Also...hahaha. Thay. See you suckers in hell! |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 03:55:35
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It is a bad as I feared. I can't say that I like this. Not at all.
I will give some time to reflect on the info so far before I make a final judgement on 4e Realms but I am NOT impressed. Not a good first impression now that some real information at hand.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 04:07:39
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To be honest, it could have been worse. I still don't like it, starting right off with the time jump, but there are a few more touchstone locations than the Orc King prologue intimated ("It is here or it is nowhere . . . " unless its in Waterdeep, Cormyr, Myth Drannor, Baldur's Gate . . . but that's pretty much it . . . )
I'm actually just as concerned about the process that led to these changes. I'm firmly convinced that there are people that hate the Realms as a matter of principal, and if WOTC decides that they still aren't getting enough of the fan base to play in the Realms, what then?
The people that dislike the Realms on principal aren't going to convert. Some of them have said that killing off the Chosen and getting rid of the Weave is "a good start," but given time, something else will bug them.
I'll take a wild guess and say that, given a little bit of time, the new complaint will be that Cormyr is too perfect and too stable and is never in any danger of being destroyed, no matter what happens, and the Realms would never appeal to them so long as Cormyr stands.
So at that point, do we jump ahead another 100 years and turn Cormyr into a ruined wasteland of warring city states?
I'm just not comfortable with a marketing strategy that is more or less based on the idea that WOTC wants to see how much of the Realms we love that they can get rid of without loosing us, but allowing them to experiment . . . will be put up with, say, 50% of the traditional Realms gone? 75%?
That having been said, from a novel reader's point of view, I am glad that there are some touchstones in this era that I can recognize. I won't be using this setting for gaming, but it does interest me enough that I might check out a few of the novels (and hey, some authors have to refer to events older than 100 years, so I'll still get some Realmslore out of them). |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 04:22:04
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It's about as abd as I feared -- if not even worse in some parts. I just can't fathom why Mythals or Ancient Magic would not be touched by the Spellplague at all. After all, they're also part of the Weave, right? And as the Sword Coast is "untouched" by the Spellplague, that'd logically mean that 3E magic system is still prelevant and functioning there, right? And the same in Netheril? And how come the Shade did not lose their powers when the Shadow Weave collapsed?
And I just can't realistically fathom how Cormyr -- deprived of its War Wizards -- could fight the Empire of Netheril to a standstill.   
I have to say that this article finally confirmed it for me, and now I can say it with finality: my group will happily keep playing 3E while waiting for 5E to come out (and it's not that we don't have enough 3E material to keep us satisfied for the next decade, if need be). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 04:30:08
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The thing that bothers me the most is the need for changes.
In Realms turns, level 9 was the highest level you could cast because Mystra "forbid" it. But Level 9 is a game mechanic term and not a Roleplaying thing. It doens't matter where the spell cap is, that still could have been the limit.
All of these changes seem to be...
1) Making the Realms more like Eberron to attract that crowd to it.
2) Making the Realms simpler so new authors/designers don't need to know anything about the Realms.
3) Making the Realms supplements to put out by killing all the AD&D characters instead of getting criticized by half-assed 4e stat blocks. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 04:37:32
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quote:
I'm still waiting to learn about what's happened to the Silver Marches.
That question was pretty much answered with the prelude to The Orc King.
quote:
“They are here, those lights of hope,” Drizzt said, to both elves. “In the Silver
Marches. Or they are nowhere."
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"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 04:46:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
I'm still waiting to learn about what's happened to the Silver Marches.
That question was pretty much answered with the prelude to The Orc King.
quote:
“They are here, those lights of hope,” Drizzt said, to both elves. “In the Silver
Marches. Or they are nowhere."
But I was told I should not pay too much attention to the prelude. *sighs*
Waterdeep wreaked by its own defensive power and rebuilding about the remains of that force. I seem to recall a promise to the effect that unimportantant areas (to the fans as a whole) would be effected. Perhaps Waterdeep was one of these areas?
The mods are likely watching me a little these days, but I will repeat I am not seeing anything good in Realms 4th yet. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 07:45:04
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| A days worth of rampaging statues is hardly worth getting in a twist over. Especially in comparison to everything else. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 07:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
I'm still waiting to learn about what's happened to the Silver Marches.
That question was pretty much answered with the prelude to The Orc King.
quote:
“They are here, those lights of hope,” Drizzt said, to both elves. “In the Silver
Marches. Or they are nowhere."
Yes, but has Alustriel survived? What changed have gone on in Silverymoon? |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 08:01:21
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What the f--k!!!
*looks at Wooly* The wait and see is over, methinks.
I feel another RANT coming up... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 08:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Regarding Realms races, yes, they can be different from the core, usually because they're more detailed and grounded in a specific backstory and history. So we know that eladrins in the Realms think of themselves as sun elves, moon elves, etc., and that many of them live in specific places such as Myth Drannor, Evereska, or Evermeet. In 3E sun elves certainly lived longer than the typical D&D elf, at least according to the tables in Races of Faerun. We wouldn't change that."
Oh no! Eladrins in the Realms are a race living on the Planes, specifically in Arvandor and the Gates of the Moons. They have never thought of themselves as sun elves, moon elves, etc. And sun and moon elves have never thought of themselves as eladrins, either. It is just plain wrong, and the designers fail to explain or justify this grave change. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 09:13:02
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You know, if this has been a new setting i would be very interested in what is told here. Strange magics, Roger Dean-like landscapes and mysteries everywhere. But the realms as they where in the old TSR days are long gone as i see them. To bad they throw these together in a mishmash I wont buy.
On the good side, now I can stop even irritating myself about the constant changes done to the "classic" Realms. |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 15:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Personally, I would have made Anauroch one of those 'No-man's lands' they describe as "Plague-touched"(...)
Interesting - IMC it's always been that way  Always felt more right than placing a desert complete with Bedines up there.
Some changes feel more than a little forced, the Dragonborn for example. (So their cities have been "ripped" from somewhere else because of the Spellplague? Uh-huh, so the Spellplague doesn't just affect the Weave, but places on other planets, too?) Nevertheless, I see some potential in the New Realms.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
You know, if this has been a new setting i would be very interested in what is told here. Strange magics, Roger Dean-like landscapes and mysteries everywhere. But the realms as they where in the old TSR days are long gone as i see them. To bad they throw these together in a mishmash I wont buy.
On the good side, now I can stop even irritating myself about the constant changes done to the "classic" Realms.
I agree. I do still see potential here, but I'd far rather seen all this stuff happening in a new setting, and not to the Realms.
They're taking a huge gamble, doing all this... Perhaps it's because I hate what they're doing, but I think it's doomed to failure. I don't think this will attract the legions of new fans they want, and I do think it will drive away a lot of old fans (including, possibly, myself). My only question is what WotC will do when it fails -- drop the Realms? Hold the license, but stop publishing it? Do some sort of reset?
It's a scary time to be a Realms fan. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
I've a basic question.
What will become our PC in 95 years ? Humans and short life span PCs will be dead... during this 95 year-old-no-events-period.
I cannot do the link with my PCs today, their death (that I really refuse !) and 1479 DR !
The FR rebirth does really not interest me.
And it seems to be the same on all French FR forums.
It only can be a joke.
Undoubtedly, part of the reason for the timejump is to move everything ahead far enough that it's almost a blank slate. They're trying to keep the best of both worlds, here (using the metaphor, not the other world merger stuff): they want to keep the richly detailed setting and its legions of fans, but they want to get away from the established history so that new fans (and writers) can jump in without feeling overwhelmed or having to slog thru piles of established material to be caught up. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:32:33
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I know I counseled a wait and see approach to a lot of people, and I kept saying that the timejump wouldn't necessarily be a century... I feel almost like I was personally stabbed in the back on all this.
I'm still going to check out 4E FR, and I still hope that the setting hasn't lost the magic that drew me in. We do still have Ed aboard, and that's a hugely positive sign.
But I'm really discouraged now. And I'm done arguing with people about it. I've tried very hard to not fall into the anti-4E camp, but I'm now a hell of a lot closer to joining those ranks than I was yesterday afternoon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:39:34
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| While I know I'm not using 4th edition Realms era in my games, at the same time, I am interested in the "edition proof" other lands material that Ed is working on. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:45:12
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This does kind of sort of shed some light on Steven's next book being called "Blackstaff Tower," I guess . . .  |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:46:40
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Well, my main reason for being as calm as I am in reading about the 4ed. is that I more or less gave up on the development of the Realms a long time ago; The Realms are mine and the only canon I use is the one I choose and players create.. Candlekeep and Ed are in fact the only two things that keep me interested in what is happening at all.
I am tempted to check out the new campaign setting though, to see if there is something I like and to read Eds part. The problem is that that would in many ways be what WotC is gambling on and I am not much tempted to support the company or their handling of the Realms and have not been for a long time. If I found a used copy after a while though, I would at least not end up in their sales statistics. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
What will become our PC in 95 years ? Humans and short life span PCs will be dead... during this 95 year-old-no-events-period.
I cannot do the link with my PCs today, their death (that I really refuse !) and 1479 DR !
The Campaign Guide will have advice for moving your characters to the new time period (time portal, temporal stasis, playing descendants, etc...) |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:26:31
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I feel EXACTLY the way I felt when I read the From the Ashes boxed set for GH. 
"They did WHAT?!"
Its almost as if each designer had his own ideas for the Realms, and instead of just following the best path, they each inserted their own material. Now, I'm not saying any of it's bad (thats highly subjective), but what it is is a mish-mosh of concepts hastily pasted together... or at least thats how it appears to me.
One of things the designers claim the Realms was lacking (?!) was a 'theme', or a least some sort of 'commonality' that all Realms players could focus on. So now they think this new Realms has a theme? It seems even more "all over the place" then ever before. Where's the theme? The Focus?
I'm just not "getting it".
I've tried to be a fence-sitter these last few weeks, and have been espousing the "wait and see" attitude like Wooly. After all, we all pretty much saw this coming - its just so much harder to except when its set in stone. I think the changes aren't whats upsetting most folks (at least, thats how I'm seeing it), but rather the was in which these changes were implemented.
They've had over two years to feed this new material to us, and we could have digested it in bite-sized chunks. If they had seperated each of the changes, and put one in a novel or sourcebook every couple months or so, they could have built up to this much more gradually and the acceptance would have been there.
Hey, we all learned to live with the Shadoweave, right?
But cramming all of this down our throats at once is causing our gag reflex to kick in. We should have gotten some of the changes, and THEN the 4e announcement. Of course we are hating most of this - we realize its all just a way wrapping the Realms around the new rules. Had we not known about the Deus Ex Machina churning along in the background, the whole thing would have went down a whole lot easier.
So, in summation, I don't think its the design of the new Realms that is at the heart of the problem - it is the poor business decisions that were made leading up to it. They made us dislike it, before we even saw it. That Gencon announcement was like a Guillotine coming down on FR's neck...
But, of course, thats just one man's opinion. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2008 17:32:51 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:42:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I am tempted to check out the new campaign setting though, to see if there is something I like and to read Eds part. The problem is that that would in many ways be what WotC is gambling on and I am not much tempted to support the company or their handling of the Realms and have not been for a long time. If I found a used copy after a while though, I would at least not end up in their sales statistics.
That's the crux of the problem right there. I know there were 3rd and 3.5 books that I would not have purchased had it not been for some excellent lore provided by Eric Boyd or George Krashos or others.
The problem is that you can't buy a book and send a note to WOTC that says "I'm only buying this because Ed wrote 26% of it." Its all or nothing. If the strategy works (i.e. having some solid FR designers provide some new FR lore in the middle of a lot of stuff you don't want), then its a victory, and it encourages the same.
In fact, I'd say it worked well enough in 3rd that they upped the ante in 4th, by pushing how much of the setting they can radically alter and jettison, and still retail some old timers with Ed, Eric, and others.
Its not an easy solution, because I love the work of many of these guys, but at some point the baggage does become more of a detriment than the bits of lore are a boon. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
A days worth of rampaging statues is hardly worth getting in a twist over. Especially in comparison to everything else.
It might not matter as much as other things, but those things can do alot of damage. Also I wonder why they need to rebuild arround them in stead of removing them. Perhaps though we get a new Waterdeep map of changed wards? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
A days worth of rampaging statues is hardly worth getting in a twist over. Especially in comparison to everything else.
It might not matter as much as other things, but those things can do alot of damage. Also I wonder why they need to rebuild arround them in stead of removing them. Perhaps though we get a new Waterdeep map of changed wards?
I seem to remember one causing quite a stir . . .
I'd imagine that Waterdeep gets a bit redesigned as a result of this. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 18:07:12
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Oh, and to clarify my original post: I didn't want to imply low quality in the overall line of 3rd or 3.5 books. My problem, in retrospect, was more about the themes that they organized the books along, and the choices of what to include and where to "spend" page count.
I liked a lot of the information found in Champions of Valor, for example, but I'd would have rather gotten my information on the Knights of the North in an actual sourcebook for the Moonsea, for example.
This is, of course, an editorial choice, and not the "fault" of any of the designers. Similarly, several of the PrCs in various books were fine for what they were designed to do, but at the same time, they took up pages and pages of material (especially once the format included a sample member of the class) to describe things that were marginally part of the "feel" of the setting (example: Thayan Gladiator).
Much of this was done to appeal to non-Realms D&D players who might want a "Magic Infused Gladiator Monster" PrC that they could lift, so it was assumed that a fairly good amount of fans would stick with the setting and "deal with it."
Fourth edition seems to be this strategy writ large. I was especially disheartened by Chris Sim's comment in his blog that you could "lift" Manshoon to use as a villain for your own campaign, because its further perpetuating this feeling that "old timers" will buy the Realms to use it, and right thinking D&D players will pick up the products for spare parts.
I could be wrong, but perhaps the designers constantly harping on how you don't have to use the Realms, but you can buy the products for more general D&D stuff, might be part of why new players don't jump on board the Realms? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 18:08:34
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| Here's the big 'don't know' about Rich's article: To what extent does it read like a PR release or a movie pitch because that's what it is, and to what extent is that kind of top-down, garish, ego-first, nuance-be-damned thinking actually how the new Realms has been conceived and is being done? |
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4e FR
