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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 05:36:26
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
If the setting folds Ed gets it back and can find 1001 publishers willing to take over. Maybe True20 Realms. :)
True, but how would you roll-back the disastrous changes that would lead to the setting folding?
(Btw, only exploring the worst-case scenarios here, I personally hope 4th ed FR is great) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 16:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
Optimistic Rin - but what happens if it sucks so bad that the setting folds?
Couldn't answer that. That's a question WotC has to worry about. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 17:13:29
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| I should hope that doesn't happen! despite my negitive outlook on 4e, I don't want them to fold because of it. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 20:16:12
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| I don't see it happening either, but it's what would happen if Wizards "retires" the Realms. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 21:13:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
I'd like to back up Wooly here, and feel quite the same way as he does. I know that on the surface 4e is quite upsetting to many fans (myself included, to be honest), but let us try to give it a chance and see what WotC tell us officially and what they release over time through their site (and ultimately, the FRCG).
It's easy to speculate and blow snippets of information out of proportion. I welcome your comments and discussions herein, of course, but personally, i'm taking a backseat and waiting for the big day to see what truly happens 
I understand and like Wooly and your opinions, but if our Wooly buddy is right and the future is not set in stone yet, then that is the best arguement for overeacting and assuming the worst. The louder we scream and the more of us that do protest vehemently, brings a bit more hope that they at least back down on a few points. They have already waffled and changed the finality of the Tyr situation by hinting that Torm will be elevated. Not perfect, but a damn better thing than it could have ended as. So as long as tempers are in check and no scribe treats another scribe wrongly, I say speculate away and loudly proclaim your dissatisfaction for WOTC's plan. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 21:44:48
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quote:
then that is the best arguement for overeacting and assuming the worst.
I disagree with that, because then you lose all credibility. It's one thing to complain about something which you know for a fact is going to happen. It's a whole other thing to start complaining about imagined slights. You think anyone at WotC would take your criticisms seriously if you're complaining about things which they may not even be doing, or haven't even considered doing? That's the surest and quickest way of convincing WotC to completely and utterly disregard your opinion, because the only thing you'll convince them of is that you're going to complain no matter what, even when there's nothing to complain about.
A civil critique is important, but so is an informed critique. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
Edited by - Venger on 09 Jan 2008 21:47:30 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 22:31:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The louder we scream and the more of us that do protest vehemently, brings a bit more hope that they at least back down on a few points.
The louder you scream, the better able they are to generalize and dismiss criticisms as fannish hysteria.quote:
They have already waffled and changed the finality of the Tyr situation by hinting that Torm will be elevated.
There was no loud and widespread outcry for Torm and against Tyr: they just saw that a proposed alternative detail worked better in their own plan than what they'd outlined.
Rich Baker:quote:
I think it's possible to posit a better backstory, like "long ago a god of evil mixed the races of orcs and humans, and to this day atavistic throwbacks are born to each from time to time."
Do Rich and others really think these ideas are objectively better than Gary's, Ed's, etc., or is this some kind of self-praising American figure of speech? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2008 : 23:11:37
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Rich posted this yesterday.
"Good questions, Landro.
Here's the way Ed G. explained it to me years ago: The Weave is an interface. It's the conduit through which the spellcaster accesses the raw potential of magic lurking in every atom of the cosmos. When the interface is removed, magic doesn't die--it's still locked up in everything around you. It's one of the fundamental forces of the universe. Electromagnetics, strong force, weak force, gravity, and magic. Well, I might be exaggerating a bit; it's not clear to me that things like atoms or radio waves or the nuclear strong force exist in a world composed of the classic elements. But I digress.
In the absence of the interface they're used to (the Weave), spellcasters in the Realms have to learn new methods for accessing magic. I expect that brilliant archmages (and the more clever gods) probably figure out a "workaround" in a matter of days. But in some places, it might be years before someone manages to reinvent spellcasting.
Regarding clerics, we do have an answer that I'm not at liberty to share just yet. More on that later. Regarding the Shadow Weave, we'll be looking to evolve that concept to match the Shadow power source hinted at in the preview books. Again, more detail on that later.
Finally, a note about the City of Shade... the Spellplague flowed "around" places with big, powerful, pervasive magical effects. So places with mythals (and Shade, which has something just as strong as a mythal) were sheltered to some degree from the ravages of the Spellplague. Secondary effects (like archmages going mad) did damage some of these places, but they generally made out OK."
and he posted today.
"Well, I'm sure somebody must have thought about it. You're certainly right that all the ingredients of an epic trilogy (albeit a tragic one) are there to be used.
I know that I looked quite carefully at the "Fall of Myth Drannor" 2e product to make sure I knew what was going on where and when. My prologues in "The Last Mythal" are snapshots of the city's last days. I wanted to show how folks who were "really there" would have perceived some of the events without the patina of history and legend that Fall of Myth Drannor paints over them. So Fflar is tired, hot, wounded, and heartsick with worry about his family when he goes out to meet Aulmpiter (sp?). The reality isn't quite as clean as the myth makes it out to be.
In any event, I've sworn off writing about elves for a long time. One trilogy about 'em is enough for now. I appreciate your vote of confidence, though!"
Which was about a trilogy detailing the Fall of Myth Drannor. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 00:33:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
The louder you scream, the better able they are to generalize and dismiss criticisms as fannish hysteria.
True, I did not mean to imply that I endorse uncalled for , unfounded criticism, I should have been much clearer on that point! The more level-headed and well thought out the critique the better. I was just trying to say it is ok to make a passionate criticism as long as it does not offend!. You can be loud and intelligent as long as you stay rational and reasonable. I see how poorly I conveyed my thoughts there.(I was checking in at work and was in a rush!)quote:
There was no loud and widespread outcry for Torm and against Tyr: they just saw that a proposed alternative detail worked better in their own plan than what they'd outlined.
I know there was no outcry for what happened, but the elevation was an idea a fan advanced on a forum, and Rich and his team liked it better. So I meant to cite that as a positive example of fan influence on the changes.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 00:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Rich posted this yesterday.
"Good questions, Landro.
Here's the way Ed G. explained it to me years ago: The Weave is an interface. It's the conduit through which the spellcaster accesses the raw potential of magic lurking in every atom of the cosmos. When the interface is removed, magic doesn't die--it's still locked up in everything around you. It's one of the fundamental forces of the universe. Electromagnetics, strong force, weak force, gravity, and magic. Well, I might be exaggerating a bit; it's not clear to me that things like atoms or radio waves or the nuclear strong force exist in a world composed of the classic elements. But I digress.
In the absence of the interface they're used to (the Weave), spellcasters in the Realms have to learn new methods for accessing magic. I expect that brilliant archmages (and the more clever gods) probably figure out a "workaround" in a matter of days. But in some places, it might be years before someone manages to reinvent spellcasting.
Not sure what I think of that, reminds me of Palin and Dragonlance relearning magic on kyrnn :( |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 00:54:03
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| Damn...I couldn't tag a name to the uncomfortable familiarity of the entire magic gone issue...Thanks friend. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 00:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
The louder you scream, the better able they are to generalize and dismiss criticisms as fannish hysteria.
True, I did not mean to imply that I endorse uncalled for , unfounded criticism, I should have been much clearer on that point! The more level-headed and well thought out the critique the better. I was just trying to say it is ok to make a passionate criticism as long as it does not offend!. You can be loud and intelligent as long as you stay rational and reasonable. I see how poorly I conveyed my thoughts there.(I was checking in at work and was in a rush!)quote:
There was no loud and widespread outcry for Torm and against Tyr: they just saw that a proposed alternative detail worked better in their own plan than what they'd outlined.
I know there was no outcry for what happened, but the elevation was an idea a fan advanced on a forum, and Rich and his team liked it better. So I meant to cite that as a positive example of fan influence on the changes.
Based on some of the feedback/information fans have received there are grounds for serious fan concerns (though some are very happy about what they've heard too) and I think forums like this should be monitored closely by WoTC - a lot of the folks here are dedicated fans and they are a serious and proven source of revenue. To dismiss their views/concerns out of hand would be very brave indeed. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 03:26:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Damn...I couldn't tag a name to the uncomfortable familiarity of the entire magic gone issue...Thanks friend.
Your welcome friend! When I read Kuje's quote from Rich I just got a feeling of déjà vous. I don't like retreads! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 05:54:31
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I know some people have expressed their dissatisfaction at me using French, but's it's déjà vu buddy, not déjà vous!
With that said, I completely agree with Red Walker. Take advantage of that free speech or liberty of speech (whatever you may wish to call it) you have.
COMPLAIN!
It will be too late to do so two days before the release of the FRCG, with your back against the wall... if I learned anything with the 3.5 release and the Living City campaign, it's that the "wait and see" attitude is a SURE WAY to not get YOUR WAY...
Be strong, assertive, and offer constructive criticism while you still can. Don't be afraid to say "this is going too far" if you feel like it. The reality is that we're months before the release of 4E and even more months before the release of the new Realms.
For's Hoar's sake (literally), speak fellow Faerûnians!
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 06:15:14
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*Blink*
Shadow Weave is being reworked, while the Weave is gone?
As for other magics, Ed has discussed such exisiting in his Realms over the last few years. Different magic in the realms is not new, just less used.
I might have misread the quote, or the meaning of it so I repeat what I am reacting to this time.
"Regarding the Shadow Weave, we'll be looking to evolve that concept to match the Shadow power source hinted at in the preview books. Again, more detail on that later."
Perhaps more points of light surrunded by shadows and evil might be another way to read it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 08:09:08
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Rather than complaining about FR4E as it would appear to be set in stone, wouldn't it be more profitable to consider a wholesale re-imagining of all events for the post-1375 DR (or, for me, post-1372 DR) period?
I started a document on my own PC making a list of these years, their names and also their names from the Shadow Roll of Years. I've been adding little comments on each of the years and plan to expand them so that, not only can ignore FR4E, I can also ignore all of the 3.E/3.5E-era novels and their RSEs (*) and run my "own" Realms.
Perhaps this could be a Candlekeep community project? Have a new thread (or "scroll", I think in the Candlekeep parlance) for each year and anyone can throw in their contributions. Any thoughts?
(*: I'm not implying any criticism, per se, of the novels of this era. I actually most of them are really well-written. I just want to control all major events in "my" Realms.) |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 08:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
If the setting folds Ed gets it back and can find 1001 publishers willing to take over. Maybe True20 Realms. :)
Savage Worlds would also be perfect for the Realms. It's rules-light in some ways, but it also easy to customise a character. And what makes it a real gem of a ruleset for an Ed-owned Forgotten Realms is that it is profoundly easy to create new types of magic.
OK, back to my Savage Realms conversion document.... ;) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 10:40:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I know some people have expressed their dissatisfaction at me using French, but's it's déjà vu buddy, not déjà vous!
With that said, I completely agree with Red Walker. Take advantage of that free speech or liberty of speech (whatever you may wish to call it) you have.
COMPLAIN!
It will be too late to do so two days before the release of the FRCG, with your back against the wall... if I learned anything with the 3.5 release and the Living City campaign, it's that the "wait and see" attitude is a SURE WAY to not get YOUR WAY...
Be strong, assertive, and offer constructive criticism while you still can. Don't be afraid to say "this is going too far" if you feel like it. The reality is that we're months before the release of 4E and even more months before the release of the new Realms.
For's Hoar's sake (literally), speak fellow Faerûnians!
Complaining hasn't worked to well until now. Not with the changes done with the 3ed. or later. WotC has had luck with not listening to angry fans until now, so I don't think it will make much difference. Customers has still bought their products. |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 14:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
I hope this was not asked before, and this is not a stupid question but :
Does Someone know why the authors decided to set the FRCG4 in year 1385DR and did not follow the FR History as it was begun, round to 1375DR.
Actually, we don't know if it's going to be set in 1385, 1475, or some point in between. For some unknown reason, they've refused to say how big of a time jump the new campaign setting is going to take. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 16:54:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
I hope this was not asked before, and this is not a stupid question but :
Does Someone know why the authors decided to set the FRCG4 in year 1385DR and did not follow the FR History as it was begun, round to 1375DR.
Actually, we don't know if it's going to be set in 1385, 1475, or some point in between. For some unknown reason, they've refused to say how big of a time jump the new campaign setting is going to take.
I believe that it is all part of their stupid "hype campaign" and that they are going to announce it in Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters in a few days when it is released. I hate hype campaigns. Just tell me what exactly in the Nine Hells you are doing with my favorite campaign setting/novel series so I choose whether I like it or not and move on. They tell us "Don't speculate," but all that they have given us is stuff to speculate on. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 17:14:07
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| is that "don't speculate" quote official? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 18:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
Based on some of the feedback/information fans have received there are grounds for serious fan concerns (though some are very happy about what they've heard too) and I think forums like this should be monitored closely by WoTC - a lot of the folks here are dedicated fans and they are a serious and proven source of revenue. To dismiss their views/concerns out of hand would be very brave indeed.
The common argument against that, though, is that vocal people on the internet (even on WotC's own boards) don't necessarily represent the majority of customers (potential or otherwise). Of course, that goes both ways and applies to the people loudly cheering on the changes, not just the people speaking out against them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 18:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
I hope this was not asked before, and this is not a stupid question but :
Does Someone know why the authors decided to set the FRCG4 in year 1385DR and did not follow the FR History as it was begun, round to 1375DR.
As Wooly pointed out, we have no clue when the official 4E FR campaign will be set.
As for the significance the Year 1385 DR (The Year of Blue Fire) and why the Spellplague will happen then, who knows? Maybe they thought the name of the year would make sense for their purposes, as the GHotR mentions the sky being "filled with Blue Fire".
Why they are jumping ahead on the timeline? Probably has to do with wanting to "make room" for the designers and for potential customers who don't know about, or don't want to be "hindered" by, Faerun's history. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 10 Jan 2008 18:30:47 |
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I Am Not A Bear
Acolyte
Canada
14 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 18:33:44
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| I like the idea of jumping ahead in the timeline as I don't think the quality of the lore of the setting will be hindered or suddenly go down the proverbial toilet. I'm actually excited about the 'what if' element of it all. As has been pointed out before, the Spellplague is the supposed to be the end of the 'Old World' and mark the emergence of the 'New World'. Elements of the 'Old World' will still be there, but it's also a chance for the rise of new characters, major cities, elements, etc. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 20:05:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The common argument against that, though, is that vocal people on the internet (even on WotC's own boards) don't necessarily represent the majority of customers (potential or otherwise).
Of course, by offing Mystra, the Chosen, and a bunch of other deities, it shows that they're listening to the vocal people... Just not to the actual fans. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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I Am Not A Bear
Acolyte
Canada
14 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 20:14:57
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So what deities do we know for sure are going to be 'retired'?
- Mystra
- Helm |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 20:25:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Why they are jumping ahead on the timeline? Probably has to do with wanting to "make room" for the designers and for potential customers who don't know about, or don't want to be "hindered" by, Faerun's history.
Designers who can't do research to get the history right more like it. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2008 : 20:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
Optimistic Rin - but what happens if it sucks so bad that the setting folds?
Couldn't answer that. That's a question WotC has to worry about.
Nah don't need Wizards. A great evil takes over and the heroes and perhaps the villains only have one choice.. go back in time and save Sarah Connor.. I mean Mystra so that the chosen don't die. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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4e FR
