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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 17:04:55
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| LOL. Well they say time is money... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 17:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I'd be happy with just a wheelbarrow full of money.
But the catch is that it would all be pennies!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 17:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I'd be happy with just a wheelbarrow full of money.
But the catch is that it would all be pennies!
Or Franks. (they are useless now that the euro is around) |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 17:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I'd be happy with just a wheelbarrow full of money.
But the catch is that it would all be pennies!
Or Franks. (they are useless now that the euro is around)
That would be Francs...but if they do the same thing in France that we do over here in Germany you can still change former currency to Euros at the regular exchange rate....so a wheelbarrow with Marks I would happily take  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 17:25:03
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| I may have been misinformed... then how about a wheelbarrow of $1,000,000 bills. (for those of you in other countries that don't know, there is no such denomination |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 17:57:43
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Richard,
As many here, I've read a bunch of your books under the FR Titles. Thank you, they're splendid works. My thoughts about writing for WotC, though, are a little strained. I've thought about pursuing a writer's position with WotC (I've been published previously, though not under any D&D related publications), and I'm wondering if it's even worth my time, what with all the recent announcements and changes under 4e and Hasbro. Further, you've generally got to be published under Dungeon/Dragon first, and they only pay $0.06/word (I'm Canadian, and it's US Funds... big deal), whereas I make $0.40/word to $1.40/word when I publish in popular literature magazines or small university presses (academic reviews, short stories, poetry, etc). |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 18:07:58
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| They pay by the word? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 18:11:04
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| I always thought you write a book, then get a cut of the profits. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 18:11:48
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| geting paid by the word is much more secure. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 18:45:04
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Aravine, with all due respect, there are very few authors who get a royalty or percentage of the work's profits. Those that do are usually independantly published authors who get an offer from a larger publisher once their books have already become successful, or those with a product good enough to land Del Rey, TOR, Harper Collins, and others on the first kick.
Generally, when writing periodicals, episodals, and fiction under an existing title (Forgotten Realms, for example) you get paid a flat, generally speaking, and maybe a small royalty if the work does well. In the case where Hasbro owns the rights, I'm guessing that Richard and Ed get paid a flat agreed-upon rate or package, with no residuals based on performance.
If it weren't the case, Ed would be rolling in dough that would make Stephen King's earnings from Carrie look like the dump I took last night. The FR books are more numerous than, and have far outsold, any other published series of popular books (excluding religious texts, such as the Bible and the Qu'ran). If you don't believe me, consider that J.R.R. Tolkein's books have only been reprinted over and over, and they don't exactly "fly off the shelves", and J.K. Rowling, while ludicrously wealthy (because of the movies more than the books, I'd guess), has been a ten-year flash in the pan. |
Edited by - Stonwulfe on 03 Jan 2008 18:49:33 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 19:19:51
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IIRC articles do tend to get paid per word, books clearly can be flat price or perhaps an advance with a residual if sales exceed a certain number.
As for FR books, EC once posted words to effect that the amount of money she earned from a book sale was not large enough to cover the cost of stamp answering fan mail.
As for the details of Ed's contract all we have been told is he has to be paid to write one novel/book per year or waive that requirement (which would be a payment for doing nothing) or FR ownership reverts back to him. At the current time the one book per year is clearly exceeded and has been for many years. As to how much each book pays Edwe have not been told and if it is based on word count (which could be flat fee) or book sales.
In many ways we realy do not need to know. Ed has indicated that there was a request/deal to write 50,000 words for 4th FRCQ or about 1/6 of that product. Likely a per word contract is my guess. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 20:13:26
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Stonwulfe: First off, thanks for the kind words. Glad you've enjoyed my stuff.
As to getting paid by WotC (or, in my experience, any other US publisher of fantasy novels and anthologies), it works like this:
If you do a piece of short fiction, you're paid by the word.
If you do a novel, nobody worries about your precise word count. You agree to deliver something of an approximate length (say, hypothetically, 100,000 words, plus or minus 10,000) and the publisher agrees to hand you X dollars when you do.
Now in each case, the money you receive up front is an advance against royalties. If the book sells enough copies ("earns out") you will wind up getting more. The difference is that if you wrote a novel, you get all the royalties. If you only wrote one story in an anthology, you split the royalties with all the other contributors.
So far, it's been my experience that most FR books do indeed earn out, although they don't necessarily do so to a spectacular degree.
Anyway, I really can't advise you as to whether working for WotC would be worth your while since I don't know your long-term career goals, the minimum pay rate you would find acceptable, etc.
I will say that $.40 to $1.40 is a damn good per-word rate, a lot better than you are likely to find writing short fantasy stories for any US market. But maybe you aren't able to sell very many pieces at that rate. Not enough to fill your available writing time. Or maybe you just have a yen to write fantasy fiction. Only you know.
I will also say that while I could be wrong (I'm just a humble freelancer, not a guy on staff, so I'm not in on all the inside dope), I don't think the WotC fiction program is going away anytime soon. I don't think you need to worry about investing the time to create a submission only to find out that this particular market has up and croaked on you.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 20:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Ed has indicated that there was a request/deal to write 50,000 words for 4th FRCQ or about 1/6 of that product. Likely a per word contract is my guess.
50,000 of 180,000 words is a bit more than 1/6. It's almost 1/3rd. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 21:00:04
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| In fact, its a little less than 28% . . . |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 21:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
Aravine, with all due respect, there are very few authors who get a royalty or percentage of the work's profits. Those that do are usually independantly published authors who get an offer from a larger publisher once their books have already become successful, or those with a product good enough to land Del Rey, TOR, Harper Collins, and others on the first kick.
Nope, not true. WotC does not use the flat fee model for novels. Writers receive an advance against royalties, a percentage of the cover price (NOT the profit). When I started out with ELFSHADOW in 1991, I was getting 4% of a book marked $3.99--hence my wry comment about my earnings on a single copy wouldn't cover the stamp needed to mail a fan letter. But the book sold well over 100,000 copies in its first printing, so it didn't do too badly.
It is true, however, that some work-for-hire books pay only a flat fee. For a while Star Wars books were flat fee, but Del Rey, who currently has the license to publish Star Wars books, pays authors an advance against a (small) royalty. Fortunately, it's a pretty good advance.
quote:
If you don't believe me, consider that J.R.R. Tolkein's books have only been reprinted over and over, and they don't exactly "fly off the shelves", and J.K. Rowling, while ludicrously wealthy (because of the movies more than the books, I'd guess), has been a ten-year flash in the pan.
I'd have to disagree with this, as well. The final Harry Potter book sold over 44 million copies in the first 24-hour period after its release. Working with round numbers, let's say the book's cover price was $25 (I believe it was more) and she received a 10% royalty (I'd guess she receives considerably more than 10%). That's $110,000,000 for one day's sales. Granted, that's a big day, but you don't need too many days like that before you're talking about real money.  I would also disagree that J.K. Rowling is a flash in the pan, and predict that Harry Potter books will be considered children's classics for many years to come. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 21:45:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
They pay by the word?
Aravine, it is common for writers to be paid by the word for short works, such as short stories, non-fiction articles (and in the case of WotC, game-related articles), and reviews. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 21:48:23
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| Oops. It appears that RLB already covered most of the financial basics. Sorry for the repetition. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 22:21:46
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Rich's posts from today.
"Gnomes will likely get a "full" PC race writeup in 2009. We *might* have a little material in the FR Player's Guide, but I'm not sure about that--I'm not working on that book.
In general, we're not going to provide a lot of support for marginal races in our printed product. We might be able to give them some more attention on D&D Insider. I wouldn't expect to see avariels or aquatic elves touched on in the FR Player's Guide.
Sorry, no immediate plans on the saurials as PCs. They're really something different from the dragonborn."
and
"Nope. I had a nice chat with Ed Greenwood at GenCon about Elminster in the post-Spellplague world, and I'm pretty happy with El's place in the scheme of things for 4e. I think Ed is too."
This is about if El was going to die.
and
"Hi, John --
I can't say too much about our product schedule beyond the middle of '08, just because it's company policy to avoid talking about products that have not yet appeared in our catalog. Speaking very broadly, you'll see a product mix that is a little heavier on adventures and a little lighter on "splat books" early on in 4e.
Regarding the "older flavor" -- no, not really. We've made a decision to make a wider thematic separation between demons and devils (for example), so we're not going to produce material showing you how to keep 'em the way they were. I don't doubt that many folks on line will come up with alternative "4e conversions" for some of these things to suit their own tastes. They're welcome to do so. As far as the Great Wheel, you can actually accommodate the outer planes within the new Astral Sea notion quite well, with very little change. Our take on the Inner Planes and the Ethereal Plane is definitely different, though."
and
"Hi, Rin --
We're not actually building a world out of the "core" setting. In a sense, the core setting is simply a collection of proper names, artifacts, and legends we expect many generic D&D games to share. This has always been true to some degree; even back in 1st Edition, just about *every* campaign every DM ran assumed that Corellon Larethian put out Gruumsh's eye, that the drow fought the other elves and were driven underground, that Acererak the lich created a Tomb of Horrors somewhere on the planet, or that the Rod of Seven Parts was lying around someplace waiting to be found.
The big new thing in the "fluff" of 4e D&D is that we're not tethering these names and stories to the world of Greyhawk; we've created a new skeleton of linked assumptions (proper names, artifacts, stories) to anchor the fluff of the "implied" setting. Since we're telling a story that tieflings are the descendants of a ruling elite from a human empire that made pacts with devils, we might as well attach a "placeholder" name to it. Some DMs will use the name Bael Turath; other DMs will make up their own infernal empire. But "Bael Turath" looks nice than "[insert your chosen name here]".
Now, for my own part, I favor the idea of sketching a simple map of that setting and thinking up a name for it. But many of my colleagues feel that doing so would simply replicate the Greyhawk phenomenon, and make it harder for DMs who build their own worlds to use the material we're creating. (So far, I've lost that argument; hey, it happens!) The idea is to create just enough flavor to have interesting proper names and links for DMs to pick up and use, without dictating how their worlds have to go together.
All of that is not really relevant to the Forgotten Realms, of course; the Realms is an example of a specific world that is not beholden to core stories, names, or flavor. So there isn't a Bael Turath in Toril's past... but we do suggest that ancient Narfell might have been the place where tieflings first appeared in Faerun.
Does that help to clarify what we're doing with the "core setting?"" |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 23:29:43
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| Well I'm glad there isn't really a core setting, that's one thing that annoyed me about 3E.. this couldn't seem to make up their minds as to whether or not they wanted to make Greyhawk the setting or not. One thing that would bother me though, is the removal of proper names from the names of spells (Bigby for example.) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 23:47:16
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| I am quite suprised: To link the first appearance of tieflings with Narfell is a quite logical and good decission (I think there is no lore which forces us to acknowledge the presence of tieflings before the rise of the empire of Narfell). |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 00:35:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Well I'm glad there isn't really a core setting, that's one thing that annoyed me about 3E.. this couldn't seem to make up their minds as to whether or not they wanted to make Greyhawk the setting or not.
Yeah, that was annoying, although I love what I'm seeing for the "core setting" so far, and think all those ideas are worthy of being a true world.
But at the same time, I see the point about avoiding the 3E "Greyhawk phenomenon". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Jan 2008 00:36:45 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 05:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Ed has indicated that there was a request/deal to write 50,000 words for 4th FRCQ or about 1/6 of that product. Likely a per word contract is my guess.
50,000 of 180,000 words is a bit more than 1/6. It's almost 1/3rd.
Hmm I seem to recall something like 297,000 words was posted by Mr. Baker. Using small type. Now I have to look and see if I recalled incorrectly. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 05:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Ed has indicated that there was a request/deal to write 50,000 words for 4th FRCQ or about 1/6 of that product. Likely a per word contract is my guess.
50,000 of 180,000 words is a bit more than 1/6. It's almost 1/3rd.
Hmm I seem to recall something like 297,000 words was posted by Mr. Baker. Using small type. Now I have to look and see if I recalled incorrectly.
I looked up the thread again earlier, and he said 180,000 words. If he used a different number over on the WotC forums, I didn't see it (I don't go over there). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 05:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I looked up the thread again earlier, and he said 180,000 words. If he used a different number over on the WotC forums, I didn't see it (I don't go over there).
Over here he said about 288 pages and about 750 words per page: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1896&whichpage=16
which equals 216,000 which would make Ed's contribution about 1/4 if he gets all 50,000 words in.
All in all until final edit it will be hard to know how much Ed sees print (or even number of pages/words per page). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 11:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I looked up the thread again earlier, and he said 180,000 words. If he used a different number over on the WotC forums, I didn't see it (I don't go over there).
Over here he said about 288 pages and about 750 words per page: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1896&whichpage=16
which equals 216,000 which would make Ed's contribution about 1/4 if he gets all 50,000 words in.
All in all until final edit it will be hard to know how much Ed sees print (or even number of pages/words per page).
That doesn't include artwork and maps... And a post or two before that is where he says 180,000. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 14:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Oops. It appears that RLB already covered most of the financial basics. Sorry for the repetition.
I will take repetition from you any day versus the prospect of not hearing from you at all Elaine! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 14:39:03
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| It's a lot of words regardless. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 16:55:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Stonwulfe: First off, thanks for the kind words. Glad you've enjoyed my stuff.
As to getting paid by WotC (or, in my experience, any other US publisher of fantasy novels and anthologies), it works like this:
If you do a piece of short fiction, you're paid by the word.
If you do a novel, nobody worries about your precise word count. You agree to deliver something of an approximate length (say, hypothetically, 100,000 words, plus or minus 10,000) and the publisher agrees to hand you X dollars when you do.
Now in each case, the money you receive up front is an advance against royalties. If the book sells enough copies ("earns out") you will wind up getting more. The difference is that if you wrote a novel, you get all the royalties. If you only wrote one story in an anthology, you split the royalties with all the other contributors.
So far, it's been my experience that most FR books do indeed earn out, although they don't necessarily do so to a spectacular degree.
Anyway, I really can't advise you as to whether working for WotC would be worth your while since I don't know your long-term career goals, the minimum pay rate you would find acceptable, etc.
I will say that $.40 to $1.40 is a damn good per-word rate, a lot better than you are likely to find writing short fantasy stories for any US market. But maybe you aren't able to sell very many pieces at that rate. Not enough to fill your available writing time. Or maybe you just have a yen to write fantasy fiction. Only you know.
I will also say that while I could be wrong (I'm just a humble freelancer, not a guy on staff, so I'm not in on all the inside dope), I don't think the WotC fiction program is going away anytime soon. I don't think you need to worry about investing the time to create a submission only to find out that this particular market has up and croaked on you.
thanks for clearing that up for me. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2008 : 23:34:53
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A few posts that Rich posted today.
"Let me provide a small word of caution: We're not going to give extra-Faerunian areas very much attention at all. You shouldn't expect to see a lot of material about Osse, Kara-Tur, or wherever... with a couple of notable exceptions that I can't really talk about yet.
That said, I don't believe we're going to knock Kara-Tur or Zakhara off the world map. They'll still be there... just not in the spotlight. If we do anything on these areas, it'll probably be in the form of DDi articles."
and
"Sorry, but it's not likely. The Utter East is a pretty obscure corner of Toril, and we're just not in a hurry to go back there." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2008 : 00:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
A few posts that Rich posted today.
"Let me provide a small word of caution: We're not going to give extra-Faerunian areas very much attention at all. You shouldn't expect to see a lot of material about Osse, Kara-Tur, or wherever... with a couple of notable exceptions that I can't really talk about yet.
That said, I don't believe we're going to knock Kara-Tur or Zakhara off the world map. They'll still be there... just not in the spotlight. If we do anything on these areas, it'll probably be in the form of DDi articles."
and
"Sorry, but it's not likely. The Utter East is a pretty obscure corner of Toril, and we're just not in a hurry to go back there."
I read these on the WotC forums and was quite saddened. I really want an update of at least the histories of Kara-Tur, Zakhara, et cetera. I really don't give a damn about any rules updates, I just want an updated, detailed history for each one. And I also think that it is stupid that they start including mentions of Osse, and other land masses/continents and do not plan on giving us any details about them. All I want is info on the histories/customs/races involved in each area! Blech!  It is looking more and more like I will have to have a DDi subscription for the Realmslore if nothing else. |
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4e FR
