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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 03:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yes, Rich has this backwards. The nature of Mystra's Chosen is that they preserve some of her essence if she's destroyed, and as far as we know they'd have to all die for her to be destroyed beyond redress.
We're asked to believe that Cyric can not only kill Mystra in Dweomerheart, but that he can do it with absolutely no warning, so that she can't pass her power into a mortal such as Elminster, as she did in a few mortal breaths in Shadows of Doom.
But this is almost nitpicking. If they enlisted Eric Boyd to create perfectly credible reasons for removing the literal and philosophical structure of Toril (the Weave) and swapping out design principles, it would be little better for those of us for whom those principles are the Realms.
Well, I have theorized that the Karsestone could be utilized to sneak Cyric into Dweomerheart... It's kind of a Spider-Man/Venom sort of reasoning, but I can see it working. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 04:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I much prefer what was done with the Hordelands in Dragon Magazine, i.e. retain a bit of the given regions "flavor," but make the predominant focus ties to Realmslore. Make the area unique to the Realms, give it its own quirks and its own independent life.
I, myself, did not care much about the Hordelands until that very Dragon article. I couldn't get enough of the Hordelands once I read this. The article finally "brought the Hordelands home" for me, with the Red Knight temple being built and the creation of a new civilization (i.e. the uniting of tribes, and the inroads being made by the various Faerunian clergies... err... I mean "soon to be axed" clergies...  )
The Hordelands article made the Hordelands "feel right" in terms of a Realms campaign. Too bad the other parts of the globe aren't getting similar treatments. |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 04:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
More posts from Rich Baker today:
"Sorry, Joseph, I can't give out any real info on that yet. After the Spellplague it's not clear to me that there would be schools of any kind surviving as an organizing principle of magic. Some spells blow people up, some spells make phantasms, some spells have defensive effects--so in that regard Evocation, Illusion, and Abjuration effects are still in the game. Some individual wizards will likely choose more of one than the other. But mechanically there won't be specialist evokers, abjurers, or illusionists.
That implies a real shakeup in the Red Wizard "table of organization," and I believe Richard Byer's Thay trilogy is touching on that."
I'm not sure if Mr Byers should be too happy with this sort of teaser being released concerning his upcoming book(s)...
Sort of makes you wonder what happens in the civil war which leads (presumably) to the elimination of the schools of magic in Thay [Szass victory?] |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 06:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
The Baldur's gate trilogy of games features/mentions at least 51 deities. Probably more.
1) Not a trilogy, unless you've played the BG3 that never got developed.
2) I'm pretty positive the games didn't focus on deities that intensely, and not even mentioned in passing that many.
Despite the fact that the games are BG, BG2:SoA, and BG2:ToB, it is often referred to as the Baldur's Gate Trilogy. Try to be nice and not make fun of people please.
Wow, pointing out that two games do not a trilogy make constitutes making fun of people because... one plus one kinda equal two, not three? Oookay. So, uh, if you're counting expansion packs, shouldn't it be a quartet? BG: TotSC existed, too. It is silly to count an expansion pack as a separate game. |
Edited by - Karzak on 19 Dec 2007 06:23:59 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 07:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Let's remember to play friendly fellow scribes. We've not had many problems in this particular scroll, and I'd like to see that trend continue. 
Indeed. I'll be a bit upset if my news scroll gets locked because of a argument. :( |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 14:53:27
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| Don't worry about it. I'm sure the scribes will heed sage's warning. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 16:46:59
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(Without trying to peck on any of the designers I'm quoting Mr. Rich Baker again  )
Did I get this right? They don’t like Chult, the Crusade, The Great Glacier and Mulhorand cause it diluted the vision of the realms? Is the Spellplague a “history-plaque” also?
Because playing in Halruaa is different from playing in the Silver Marches there will be only one “Realm”? – Wow, maybe I need to (and would like to) participate in a one-week discussion with the designers to get some light into the long, long dark tunnel for me.
Wouldn't have it been easier to start a “new Realm” then? Sure I’m aware of the marketing value of FR – but wouldn’t it have been easier to really separate it?
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Edited by - Matthus on 19 Dec 2007 16:47:43 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 17:34:57
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| From all that has been said, I am getting conflicting messages about the 4e Realms. Is seems as if they are letting Ed flesh out some of the other continents (mentioned in the GamerZer0 interview with Chris Perkins), but that they are berating the things that diversify Toril, as in Mulhurond, Zhakara, Kara-Tur, Mulhorand, Chult, et cetera (mentioned here by Rich Baker). Does anyone else find this contradictory and confusing. Also, does anyone else agree with me that part of what attracts us to the Realms is it diversity, and that seems to be the exact thing they are trying to utterly destroy with the 4e Realms? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 19 Dec 2007 17:37:44 |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 17:37:23
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| I agree with you that it is partly the diversity, but isn't it also the chance to get away from our problems? at least for me, I mean. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 17:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
I agree with you that it is partly the diversity, but isn't it also the chance to get away from our problems? at least for me, I mean.
I can understand the use of the Realms for escapism (I believe that we all use the Realms for this purpose from time to time). The question really is, "Will you still want to use the Realms as a place to escape from reality if they completely obliterate the diversity of the the Realms?" |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 17:45:28
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| If I really dislike the "new" realms as much as the updates are making it seem that I will, I will just use 3.0 FR and 3.5 rules |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 06:55:21
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Rich posted some replies yesterday.
"Well, sure, of course I'm worried about that. Maybe we're making Star Trek: Next Generation, and we're going to send the setting on a great 7-year run (or however long TNG lasted) that makes it more popular than ever. Or maybe we're making New Coke. We're trying like heck to shoot for the former rather than the latter, but it's not like the New Coke guys set out to create a disaster. They thought they had good reasons for doing what they did, too.
Ultimately, a big revision is a calculated gamble. Given everything I know (and I'm not at liberty to share all of what I know, which is one reason why I may seem more sanguine about the whole thing than some folks here think I should be), I think it will work. But I'm human, and I might be wrong."
The other two replies I didn't think were that interesting, so I didn't repost them. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Dec 2007 06:55:37 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 11:55:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Rich posted some replies yesterday.
"Well, sure, of course I'm worried about that. Maybe we're making Star Trek: Next Generation, and we're going to send the setting on a great 7-year run (or however long TNG lasted) that makes it more popular than ever. Or maybe we're making New Coke. We're trying like heck to shoot for the former rather than the latter, but it's not like the New Coke guys set out to create a disaster. They thought they had good reasons for doing what they did, too.
Ultimately, a big revision is a calculated gamble. Given everything I know (and I'm not at liberty to share all of what I know, which is one reason why I may seem more sanguine about the whole thing than some folks here think I should be), I think it will work. But I'm human, and I might be wrong."
The other two replies I didn't think were that interesting, so I didn't repost them.
I love that Rich is doing his utmost to answer all concerns, but The New Coke guys did not have feedback prior to launch like Wotc is getting!
Thanks for the updates Kuje!! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 14:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Enough about the game trilogy, please. 
Game trilogy? what game trilogy? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 16:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red WalkerThanks for the updates Kuje!!
No problem. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 19:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
But this is almost nitpicking. If they enlisted Eric Boyd to create perfectly credible reasons for removing the literal and philosophical structure of Toril (the Weave) and swapping out design principles, it would be little better for those of us for whom those principles are the Realms.
I agree--if many of the major things I liked about the setting are being editted out, it doesn't really matter to me what the reasons for the deletions are. The end result is still undesirable...for me, anyway (I'm not claiming to speak for everyone here). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 20:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
But this is almost nitpicking. If they enlisted Eric Boyd to create perfectly credible reasons for removing the literal and philosophical structure of Toril (the Weave) and swapping out design principles, it would be little better for those of us for whom those principles are the Realms.
I agree--if many of the major things I liked about the setting are being editted out, it doesn't really matter to me what the reasons for the deletions are. The end result is still undesirable...for me, anyway (I'm not claiming to speak for everyone here).
I just feels bad for me to be in the group being left behind, especially when you feel your group is bigger than the group going in a new direction and was at the very least partly responsible for past sucesses. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 23:04:06
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Rich's posts from today.
"Goliaths, probably yes. Half-giants, not so sure. We think that goliaths and half-giants hold down some pretty similar territory, and it's not clear that there should be two character races there or one well-defined one. In that contest, we think goliaths probably win.
You won't see much attention given to goliath homelands or characters in the 2008 Realms releases, but we're thinking of earmarking a spot or two for later, so that when the core game does come out with goliaths, you know where in Faerun they're from."
and
"My "commonality of experience" remark is simply this: It might be too easy to play FR games that have nothing in common with each other, other than D&D. Johnkretzer asked me why we would possibly consider a world with lesser diversity to be an improvement -- I was pointing out reasons that an "intellectual property" with a tighter focus would be better for us than one that was all things to all people. You can certainly come up with arguments in the other direction; it's not clear that "focused" is always superior to "general."
Here's an example: In the Dragonlance setting, it's a sure bet that every player who's played in that setting has fought draconians at some point. It's a common experience all Dragonlance players share and can compare. In core D&D, adventures like Tomb of Horrors used to be a common experience; everybody played it at some point. (These days, something like Forge of Fury might be a better bet.) In the Birthright setting, you ruled kingdoms. In Planescape, you went to Sigil. Those are common experiences of those settings.
Halruaa was just an example I used of a game that would look and feel like it belonged to a totally different "IP" than the more center-of-the-road FR games. (Halruaa looks more like Eberron than it does Forgotten Realms, in my opinion.) We'd like more Realms games to share the Waterdeep-Silver Marches-Cormyr-Dalelands experience, because those areas are really the heart of the Realms and share the strongest elements of Ed's original vision for the setting. I'd like to encourage people to play there, instead of running Lost World games down in Chult or magical Three Musketeers games in Halruaa. Could the world still include such places? Sure. But it's not really part of the common Realms experience." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 00:04:48
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So the reason for cutting down on the diversity in the Realms is so players can have a common topic of conversation while playing in different games?
"Hey, I see you play Dragonlance ... how 'bout them draconians eh?" |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 21 Dec 2007 00:05:49 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 00:42:13
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| I kind of see what he's saying, the North and the Heartlands are the most developed areas of the Realms (at least in print), but I would wager that the majority of games take place in the areas he mentioned anyway. It's always seemed that way to me. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 02:54:54
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"We'd like more Realms games to share the Waterdeep-Silver Marches-Cormyr-Dalelands experience, because those areas are really the heart of the Realms and share the strongest elements of Ed's original vision for the setting. "
Which would have been easier for us Realms players if they would have given us more 3e products about those regions. There wasn't anything outside the FRCS about Cormyr or Dalelands. Once again, they are blaming the setting instead of looking to their own failings as publishers. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 05:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
"We'd like more Realms games to share the Waterdeep-Silver Marches-Cormyr-Dalelands experience, because those areas are really the heart of the Realms and share the strongest elements of Ed's original vision for the setting. "
Which would have been easier for us Realms players if they would have given us more 3e products about those regions. There wasn't anything outside the FRCS about Cormyr or Dalelands. Once again, they are blaming the setting instead of looking to their own failings as publishers.
Yes, the situation is becoming quite laughable. They've already lost sooooo many. If I was them I would shut up and stop throwing oil on the fire... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 05:15:32
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I don't even have the energy to try to refute these things anymore. The fact that the design principals the inform the changes are coming from this direction makes it hard to even try to find common ground.
I remember the old Forgotten Realms DC Comic. It was great, and had a wonderful Realms feel to it. It included a Halruaan wizard, a Luiren halfling, a dwarf trapped in the body of an iron golem, a gold elf cleric, and a female warrior from Kara-Tur. And somehow the comic didn't feel at all like Dragonlance, or Greyhawk, or any other fantasy setting. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 14:12:25
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| Perhaps because you recognized the names of places? or their backgroud was simalar to one of your characters? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 14:18:58
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With the "hint" from Wooley my answer to the D&D discussion scroll (I placed the quote from over there):
quote:
Interestingly enough, according to a new article on Wizards Elves will only live to be 200 years old in 4th Edition. Instead of a long-lived, reflective race, they are now described as impulsive and taking things less seriously because they live to be 200.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20071221
I suppose they can explain this away with the spellplague - the magic that kept elves alive is no longer as strong, or is more wild and uncontrollable, etc. So there should not be any serious continuity problems.
But this is quite interesting to me, because I've played elven starting characters who were older than 200! In the very least it will make for some truly staggering changes to Evermeet.
There are a lot of “interesting” things: Wanderlust, merry-making, wild hair, impulsive, permanent buildings only from trees – I’m curious how the get the bridge to FR, explaining the Mythals, the old empires, the Retreat and all we knew from them until now. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 15:00:12
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| Well, as I said over there, the Realms has not always followed the racial norms that regular D&D follows. So I hope -- I really, deeply, and truly hope -- that this 200-year thing isn't going to show up in 4E FR. If it does show up, it'll just be another thing for me to chuck out the window. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 15:24:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
I kind of see what he's saying, the North and the Heartlands are the most developed areas of the Realms (at least in print), but I would wager that the majority of games take place in the areas he mentioned anyway. It's always seemed that way to me.
I was thinking the same thing. Those are great places to adventure in, so I can understand encouraging players to use those locales. But why would they need to encourage that if those places are already the most popular? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Dec 2007 15:28:13 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 15:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Matthus
There are a lot of “interesting” things: Wanderlust, merry-making, wild hair, impulsive, permanent buildings only from trees – I’m curious how the get the bridge to FR, explaining the Mythals, the old empires, the Retreat and all we knew from them until now.
Because all the stuff you mentioned was made by the eladrin (eladrins?) and not the "elves"? That's my off-the-cuff answer. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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4e FR
