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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 17:40:25
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No, it doen´t matter. =/
So, take the advice of our fellow scribe:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria
WOTC is driving this particular bus. Enjoy the ride.
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 00:29:50
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I know Rino posted this alrdy but.... Rich's posts today.
"Sigh. It turns out I've got to eat some crow.
The Drizzt piece is a placeholder for the catalog, we've actually got new art commissioned. It shows a shade knight flying on a wicked-looking dragon, wheeling over the towers of a dark fortress. Very nice piece.
My bad."
and
"Only a very little bit, Rauric. For years, the big problem with paying serious attention to Osse or Anchorome is simply the fact that we've had a pretty conservative release schedule of 3-4 Realms products a year. It's hard to commit to describing one of those other continents when we haven't yet made it back to the Moonshaes in 15 years (for example).
I'm hopeful that our new online initiative may make it possible for us to explore some material in areas we haven't ever gone before. We'll see how things begin to take shape as we get our Gleemax and DDi feet under us." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Dec 2007 00:31:46 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 01:14:52
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*bangs head*
Going online and not even able to put out the ezines. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 16:50:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
The WotC-Bus is like that bus from the movie Speed: if they slow down sales the company explodes, but by always driving like crazy, they're causing a lot of collateral damage.
PDK - your hot for the movie references aren't you? Yesterday was "Raiders of the Lost Ark" today is "Speed" - what next? 
Don't worry, I'll keep it PG-13 or cuddlier, whatever it will be!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 20:43:49
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I missed these posts yesterday from Rich.
"I'm pretty sure the Nine Hells will remain the Nine Hells -- one place you go to that's divided into nine separate layers, worlds, domains, or whatever. If you're just arriving in the Nine Hells (from the Astral, mind you, not Ethereal), you normally appear in Avernus. Getting to Dis or layers beyond usually involves finding the right "internal" portal or gate, just like always."
and
"I think Rauric's got the right answer here. I'm not real anxious to say that the Spellplague and its consequences made demigods unable to sponsor clerics or major faiths, nor do I really want to just retcon it and say that demigods never headed up significant faiths. But I'm pretty sure we want to keep the number of Faerun-wide faiths at a more reasonable number than 120+. So maybe the right thing to do is a "mild" retcon on this score, suggesting that some demigods in the pre-Spellplague years have occasionally enjoyed local worship, but when they were doing so it was likely an affiliated greater god or lesser god who was really garnering the worship. It's hard to worship the Red Knight without tipping your cap to Tempus, I'd imagine. That would probably work for most of the faiths we'd like to let slide into obscurity."
and
"In fiction? Probably; it depends if any author needs such a place for his or her story. I've got one in my novel Swordmage called "the Troll and Tankard," which Volo would likely turn his nose up at. As an important feature of a game product? Probably not. I'm sure a couple of famous ones will be mentioned in the new FR Campaign Guide (the Yawning Portal, for instance), but not in Volo-like detail."
and
"We've been talking more about the Forgotten Realms 4e preview plans in the last couple of days, and I think you'll see something kicking off in January. (We all became very busy in the last couple of months, and launching the preview series in December just fell by the wayside.) I'll say more when we get our plans nailed down, but... I'd hope we can get the first formal preview piece posted by mid- to late-January."
And from today:
"Well... elves have been "taller" throughout 3rd Edition. We made sure to address the height and weight defaults in Races of Faerun so that the default would reflect the fact that we'd said in various places for years that elves were as tall as humans in FR. For example, in 3e the sun elf is 4'10" plus 2d10 inches, or about 5'9" on average. The core elf is 4'5" plus 2d6 inches, or an even 5 feet on average. So this is a place where 4e core is moving to where 3e Realms has been for quite some time.
Regarding halflings, it's pretty much true that we want them to be a bit bigger. The height and weight charts in 3rd Edition described a 3-year old human child. That's *tiny*. In Lord of the Rings, Pippin is described as being about the size of a 10-year old boy (admittedly, he is big for a hobbit thanks to Treebeard's draught). That's a lot more reasonable. Plus, it helps us to make better miniatures of halfling characters if they're about 2/3rd human height.
And yes, I think spellfire might make an appearance."
and
"I'm still looking into it. We're sort of "between" titles on that front, so it's going to be a little ways off no matter what we do. I would like to see a CRPG title that really explores the Spellplague events (for instance), which we sort of want to treat as an event that's run its course in the 4e campaign setting. But that's just my opinion, and there are a few things to sort out. Our licensors (or licensees? I can never keep that straight) might have some other suggestions. When I know more, I'll say more."
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 21:08:35
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*mutters*
Nailed with liquid nails perhaps. However there does not need to be a retcon, with the Weave gone minor dieties (solely because of that fact) become limited in what divine power they can grant theier followers. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 18:06:08
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| they still have yet to impress... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 18:18:39
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I've heard it said elsewhere:
quote:
-MMO games, especially WOW has been quite influential in the new design process. This has been admitted by several Wizards personell. Basically they are trying to get the best things from MMO's, and meld them into tabletop gaming. One thing they are aiming for is attracting new female games; which apparently WOW has been able to do. They say, if WOW can make wives and gf's play, so can DnD.
Is this for real? Because if so, a colossal barrel of LOLs, LMAOs and ROFLs. It's dumb beyond belief. Someone's missing the point and attraction of MMOs hugely, and they're things that can't translate to tabletop gaming at all. Don't even get me started on the "let's attract girls!" thing. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 04:33:13
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Rich's post from today.
"Well, I sure don't plan to use gods as characters in any books I write. I can't speak for all the Realms authors (some of them are working on very different storylines than I am, after all) but I'd just as soon avoid that.
Regarding the trimming of the pantheon... let me see if I can shed some light on our thinking. Imagine that we had every Realms DM make a list of every deity *significant* in their game. That is, every deity chosen by a cleric PC as their patron deity, every deity whose clerics and servants the PCs fought, and every deity whose NPC clerics or servants played a useful part in the game. I think that list in the typical Realms campaign is about 15 deities long. Maybe you've had 5-7 PC cleric deities, maybe you've trashed the temples of 4-6 evil deities, and maybe you've gotten advice or help from the clerics of 3-5 other deities. How many more deities do you *need* to run a good game? At what point do you have deities you're never going to use in your game?
So let's say we ask those DMs to rank the 20 deities (I'll be generous) most important in their version of the setting, and we compared the lists across all FR DMs everywhere. I'd bet those "Top 20" lists include, on average, 85% similarity, and it's only 2-4 minor deities rounding things out that make one DM's Top 20 vary from another DM's Top 20. I think that what we're really arguing about here is an individual DM's ability to compose his or her own "demi-pantheon" or subset of the deities he or she wants to feature in the game. And I think those demi-pantheons are overwhelmingly similar across the broad playing base of the game. If I'm right about that, we're better off to identify the deities that are on most people's list and pay attention to them.
Do the deity count -- How many deities really matter in your home game? If someone can honestly say more than 30, I'll be quite surprised." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 05:07:20
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This is a fun exercise, so I tried it with the last few FR campaigns I ran/played in:
Mistledale Campaign: 25 gods (2 + year long campaign)
Skullport Campaign: 7 gods; 3 archfiends (2 month campaign)
Tashalar Campaign: 5 gods (3 month long campaign)
Featherdale Campaign: 10 gods (6 month long campaign so far)
On the surface this seems to support the theory that no single campaign has utilized more that 30 deities on a regular basis. However, if you look at the individual gods that were featured in each of these campaigns, a lot of them don't have much crossover from one campaign to another.
Lathander is very important in the current campaign, hardly came up at all in the others. Bane was a well represented god in three of he campaigns, but hasn't been a factor in my current one. Add to this the fact that some gods may not be a major fixture, but still figured prominently in the backstory of various adventures, and I'd say that I have a use for quite of few "extraneous" deities.
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 05:09:30
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he has a good point here. I can really think of about a dozen or so that I use on a regular basis for my campaigns, and that covers the spectrum of alignments. hmmmm.
I do however like other options to use, to spice things up a bit though, when the norm becomes a bit boring. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 05:44:02
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But who *cares* if Faerun has more deities than you can shake a stick at? this whole argument is undeniably moot in a DM/player perspective!! here, more is more (as opposed to less is more), as we have a long-lived, well expanded, living/breathing setting.
This "breast reduction" operation they're about to inflict upon the pantheons of Faerun is just that: a very unnecessary operation which would ruin something big and beautiful.
If you ask me, I think they're just getting lazy and they don't want to write about "all these annoying gods they don't know about", cause frankly, we all know by now that none of them game in the Realms.
Peace out folks. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 07:22:33
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| Ironically enough, Mystra plays a huge role in my Waterdeep campaign, and the Chosen have been known to make an appearance... especially Qilué and Alustriel.... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 08:06:18
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So let's say most of us don't use more than 30 deities in any one campaign. So what? What I am not seeing here is what trimming down the deity list accomplishes. I'm introducing two new players to the Realms soon, and going over the deities, they're delighted at the wide selection. That combined with my hints based on what kind of characters they told me they wanted to play does well as to not confuse them.
I'm getting the feeling that it's not something that's wrong with the setting, but something wrong with DMs? Or are they trying to target a new base of players who don't wish to "complicate" themselves with a variety of deities, which by the way, makes the Realms into what a lot of us love. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, he will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who celebrate after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, Id be wondering: Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE youre adventurers? -Ed Greenwood
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 12:40:16
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| The other ironic thing about this "top 20" or "top 30" list is that they're actively killing or otherwise getting rid of deities who probably are in the top 20 lists quite a lot of the time. The "insignificant" ones are just getting downgraded a little to servant-deities, AFAICT. |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 13:12:17
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Mmh, well the only campaign I can judge from was a 5+ year campaign centered in the western Hardlands. And I have to say - over the years I have used and introduced quite many deities. I would probably come close to or even al little over 30.
Anyhow, I understand that the many deities might be confusing for a new player that has just been introduced to the Realms. And a unexperienced DM might also be taken aback by such a wide variaty. However, I still see no real reason for cutting some gods out of the setting, even demi-goids. True is that demi-gods are not a common sight in game play or official material but if they were they wound not linger in their existence as a demi-god to begin with.
Further, haven't we seen a certain guidance by the FRCS and the list of gods that were introduced there? As I understood it the major gods every player and DM should keep in mind was introduced in that tome. Only with the introduction and use of the (wonderful and extensive) F&P sourcebook all the other gods were introduced in depth. And even that book makes a very visual and understandable differenciation between major and minor gods.
So basically the reduction of the gods is to make the setting more player friendly by taking away parts that make it a unique and special setting for other players. That could have been done with a simple options rule in a side bar as well. "all those confused with the many gods, leave as many out of your game as you like!" Basta!
Don't know if this rent of mine makes any sense to anyone. I appologies for the length of it and hope my point became clear. The cut of the gods is by far the worst thing of the coming 4th ed. But maybe we have seen nothing yet. WotC is always up for surprises it seems ... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 15:39:36
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| Needless to say, I think the pantheon reduction is unfortunate. It's true that certain gods are used a lot more often than others, but isn't the game about variety and options, as well? And isn't a wide variety of options the way WotC makes money? If there are too many gods, does that mean that 4E isn't going to feature that many spells, feats, and classes either, because that would be "too confusing" for people? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Dec 2007 15:40:17 |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 15:41:26
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| It is unfortunate. but nothings stopping us from 'porting 3e dieties into 4e, is there? I mean aside from Mystra, and Azuth and such |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
Edited by - Aravine on 18 Dec 2007 17:45:21 |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 15:55:27
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| The Baldur's gate trilogy of games features/mentions at least 51 deities. Probably more. |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 16:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
The Baldur's gate trilogy of games features/mentions at least 51 deities. Probably more.
1) Not a trilogy, unless you've played the BG3 that never got developed.
2) I'm pretty positive the games didn't focus on deities that intensely, and not even mentioned in passing that many. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 20:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
The Baldur's gate trilogy of games features/mentions at least 51 deities. Probably more.
1) Not a trilogy, unless you've played the BG3 that never got developed.
2) I'm pretty positive the games didn't focus on deities that intensely, and not even mentioned in passing that many.
Despite the fact that the games are BG, BG2:SoA, and BG2:ToB, it is often referred to as the Baldur's Gate Trilogy. Try to be nice and not make fun of people please. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 20:23:03
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More posts from Rich Baker today:
"Sorry, Joseph, I can't give out any real info on that yet. After the Spellplague it's not clear to me that there would be schools of any kind surviving as an organizing principle of magic. Some spells blow people up, some spells make phantasms, some spells have defensive effects--so in that regard Evocation, Illusion, and Abjuration effects are still in the game. Some individual wizards will likely choose more of one than the other. But mechanically there won't be specialist evokers, abjurers, or illusionists.
That implies a real shakeup in the Red Wizard "table of organization," and I believe Richard Byer's Thay trilogy is touching on that."
-and-
"I believe that FR is a campaign setting where the gods (and their clerics) are more important and more integrated into the storyline than the average D&D world. I think that's going to remain true. There's a lot more cachet to being a cleric of Tempus or Torm than being a cleric of Dol Dorn, for instance. I also think that will remain equally true if we have a pantheon of 30-ish greater and lesser gods, compared to 120-ish. Some posters on the forum will doubtless disagree..." |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 20:31:53
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Wow. From Rich's posts from today, I think he (and the 4e Realms design team) just do not get it when it comes to what the "Old Guard" of the Realms loves about it. In the thread I created in on the WotC forums a few months ago, I asked other people why they loved the Realms. The reply I got most often (thank you RM, MT and many others) was that it just felt "real." Now, if I were WotC, I would then ask myself, "What makes it 'real' to the Realms fans? Hmmm...the RL world has has many diverse religions and pantheons that its populace believes in and worships, and the Realms has many diverse religions and pantheons that its populace believes in and worships. Maybe there is a correlation there!" Of course, that would be attaching logic. Right now I see WotC as Cyric (who's logic, if you can call it that, is sketchy at best), and the Realms fans as Mystra; and Cyric just stabbed Mystra in the back.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 18 Dec 2007 20:33:31 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 23:01:50
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And yet more responses from Rich today:
"A couple more answers...
1) I don't think so. I'd imagine we would leave them about where they were in the Races of Faerun tables.
2) I doubt it. I think that Mystra's death likely brings an end to most of the special abilities conferred by her on the Chosen.
3) Not sure, I'll have to confer with my colleagues. Certainly nothing like the Chosen of Mystra will resurface. Fzoul remains, but in something of a new role; can't say more than that for now.
4) Yes, I think Kelemvor is staying mostly the same."
-and-
"Well, off the top of my head:
* There's not as much common experience of the Realms out there in the audience as we'd like to see. Somebody playing a Halruaa campaign is engaged with an entirely different fantasy than somebody playing a Silver Marches game. Which is the Realms?
* We can cover a narrower scope of material in more depth.
* New players will have an easier time accessing the setting if it's got a tighter focus.
* Some of the diversity is frankly bad diversity. The Realms was treated as the "kitchen sink" for a few years back there in the early 90's, and so we bolted on pastiches of Cortez, Genghis Khan, Eskimos, Egyptians, and what-have-you. Each diluted the vision of the Realms.
* You've never tried to engage a moviemaker or computer game producer with the setting; I've seen those conversations a time or two. It's harder than it looks, partly because the Realms tries to be all things to all people. It's better to be the best thing to some people.
Here's a funny story from the early days of the Realms 3e work. Our brand team tried to come up with a marketing-speak hook to describe the setting. All they could get all parties to agree on was "The Forgotten Realms is a world where heroes fight evil." I pointed out that their statement was just as accurate in describing the world of Spider Man as the Forgotten Realms." |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 18 Dec 2007 23:02:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 23:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
2) I doubt it. I think that Mystra's death likely brings an end to most of the special abilities conferred by her on the Chosen.
That doesn't make sense. The same didn't apply to Baneliches when Bane was dead... Mystra's Chosen contain part of her essence, true, but it's an independent part. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 00:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rich Baker
2) I doubt it. I think that Mystra's death likely brings an end to most of the special abilities conferred by her on the Chosen.
That doesn't make sense. The same didn't apply to Baneliches when Bane was dead... Mystra's Chosen contain part of her essence, true, but it's an independent part.
That makes sense. Maybe I someone should bring this up to Rich on his Sage thread.
EDIT: I see you already have. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 19 Dec 2007 00:43:26 |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 00:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
The Baldur's gate trilogy of games features/mentions at least 51 deities. Probably more.
1) Not a trilogy, unless you've played the BG3 that never got developed.
2) I'm pretty positive the games didn't focus on deities that intensely, and not even mentioned in passing that many.
1) See HawkinsDM's message.
2) I am. I'm pretty heavily involved in the BG2 modding scene and you can view the incomplete list at http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10367. While that many gods are not focused on in detail, they are mentioned/referred to by the NPCs you encounter in the game world where appropriate by the inhabitants. This makes sense in a lot of ways and is a nice attention to detail, as everyone is going to pray/call on/attribute the various "natural" happenings in their world around them to the various gods that they do know are very real. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 01:45:20
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Yes, Rich has this backwards. The nature of Mystra's Chosen is that they preserve some of her essence if she's destroyed, and as far as we know they'd have to all die for her to be destroyed beyond redress.
We're asked to believe that Cyric can not only kill Mystra in Dweomerheart, but that he can do it with absolutely no warning, so that she can't pass her power into a mortal such as Elminster, as she did in a few mortal breaths in Shadows of Doom.
But this is almost nitpicking. If they enlisted Eric Boyd to create perfectly credible reasons for removing the literal and philosophical structure of Toril (the Weave) and swapping out design principles, it would be little better for those of us for whom those principles are the Realms. |
Edited by - Faraer on 19 Dec 2007 02:04:21 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 03:11:14
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quote:
* Some of the diversity is frankly bad diversity. The Realms was treated as the "kitchen sink" for a few years back there in the early 90's, and so we bolted on pastiches of Cortez, Genghis Khan, Eskimos, Egyptians, and what-have-you. Each diluted the vision of the Realms.
IIRC TSR demanded FR include tie-ins to the other worlds. Most likely why Evermeet got spelljammers. It was the safest place for them. Dark Sun elements were included and so on. The diverse world that is now complained about appears to have been a corprorate decsion. 3rd Ed was allowed to break the linkage some, based on something I read, however 4th is going back to the 2nd modle of world interconnectivity based on design statements. Of course right now they are only featuring two Worlds with perhaps Greyhawk being left living as a third. There are not 8 or 10 worlds that need interconnectivity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 19 Dec 2007 03:14:06 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 03:37:24
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While I wasn't a big fan of the "kitchen sink" effect of 2nd edition, and I really didn't like sourcebooks that felt more like a cut and paste of a given real world culture's encyclopedia entry into whatever regional sourcebook was being written at the time, I'm getting the feeling that Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zhakara, etc. are going to get "nuked" along with the Chosen.
I much prefer what was done with the Hordelands in Dragon Magazine, i.e. retain a bit of the given regions "flavor," but make the predominant focus ties to Realmslore. Make the area unique to the Realms, give it its own quirks and its own independent life.
Heck, Jeff Grubb's Ko family from T'u Lung was an excellent example of this back in the day, a nice "ground level" touchstone to view the setting from, but unfortunately these gave way to the "tea ceremony encounters" of Ronin Challenge in 2nd edition.
To put this in other terms, if you are a Batman fan, but you think Penguin was a silly villain, is it better to retcon Penguin into some kind of mutant half-man half-bird serial killer to fit a darker theme . . . or do you kind of accept his past as a moderately successful criminal, and put the twist on it that he is now more or less retired, running a club, and acting as an information broker for the criminal element and an informant for Batman. One is kind of an over the top overreaction, the other is a natural evolution that still leaves the character with its roots for those that might not have minded it as much, but that overall fits the tone of the series better.
Not a perfect analogy, but I think not entirely off base either. |
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4e FR
