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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 00:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Longer answer is coming soon, but basic idea is a powerful concept like the Weave must be embraced by the rules or dropped.
Why? Why do we need anything more than what we already have? Not everything that exists in D&D needs to have rules, especially when it's part of the natural state of existence. Or are you next going to say that we need rules for how Toril's sun shines, or maybe rules for how deities control their portfolios?
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
What was done during 1-3.x era is a (IMHO, failed) attempt to come up with a way to say neither yes or no. Bad bad bad...
Yeah, saying the Weave existed and was the way to use magic is such a horrible thing... 
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Btw, don't get me wrong, I have nothing agaisn't the concept of the Weave.
Really? Then why does a naturally existing phenomenon need rules? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 01:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why? Why do we need anything more than what we already have? Not everything that exists in D&D needs to have rules, especially when it's part of the natural state of existence. Or are you next going to say that we need rules for how Toril's sun shines, or maybe rules for how deities control their portfolios?
Not at all ! I'm the anti-simulationist guy around here !
Rules have one main purpose : to give focus on what the designers have decided is important in the game.
If you want a game with complex strategies in combat, you do D&D 3.x, if not, you handle it on a single dice-check or even on a drama basis.
The idea above is not to have tons of rules, but an "all-or-nothing" mindset. If it's important, make it relevant using the rules, if it's not drop it.
For example, in a "FR RPG", the magic system could be strongly linked to fact that the way the mortals can reach raw magic is the Weave, i.e. a Godess. In such a system, the "Mystra's ban" could be interesting. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 11 Dec 2007 01:39:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 02:00:57
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| I don't see how that's really all that different from what we have, or what the point of changing it is. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 02:08:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see how that's really all that different from what we have, or what the point of changing it is.
In D&D, using magic has no consequences, even when abusing it. It's fine (and fun) for a gamist/sim dungeon crawl experience.
It could be different in a FR RPG that would have a different overall goal.
But that's not the way 4E is designed at all so that's not relevant to this thread. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 11 Dec 2007 02:12:34 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 02:23:32
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| So basically, you're still discussing a topic that's supposed to be banned. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 03:10:23
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| On the topic of 4th edition, the designers have also said that there will still be major magical effects like Mythals, but that there will not be rules for them, which seems to go against the idea that there will be rules for the things they want to emphasize in the setting. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 03:26:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
If you want a game with complex strategies in combat, you do D&D 3.x, if not, you handle it on a single dice-check or even on a drama basis.
With all due respects Skeptic, there is nothing complex about 3.X combat strategies. It is by far the most simple D&D system we've ever seen. Making the system "simpler" will result in the loss of a lot of good things (i.e. less options for what a character can do in a round).
If you're a melee dude or archer, this is bad, because you've essentially condemned these folks to play characters that have only one option: roll to attack / roll to damage. In the current system, albeit skewed a bit towards the big brawny guy with a two-handed weapon, warrior-types can do a variety of other things "when the sword does not work" (i.e. grapple, disarm, trip, etc. with supporting feats to help get better at these things) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 03:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
With all due respects Skeptic, there is nothing complex about 3.X combat strategies. It is by far the most simple D&D system we've ever seen. Making the system "simpler" will result in the loss of a lot of good things (i.e. less options for what a character can do in a round).
By complex, I didn't mean ackward/bad/etc. but detailled/offering many alternative/etc.
On level 3-12 (aprox.) in fact, the D&D combat system is pretty exciting (in a gamist way).
By the way, my currently favorite RPG (The Burning Wheel) also has a pretty complex gamist combat system under the hood.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 11 Dec 2007 03:52:10 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 03:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
On the topic of 4th edition, the designers have also said that there will still be major magical effects like Mythals, but that there will not be rules for them, which seems to go against the idea that there will be rules for the things they want to emphasize in the setting.
I didn't say 4E will have "rules for the things they want to emphasize in the setting", I said that a good-designed RPG would do it.
Mythals can also be only a nice touch of "color". (If the game doesn't revolve around dealing with them).
Finally, sorry for those few who like such debates, but I'll back off for some times. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 11 Dec 2007 04:23:25 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 06:29:12
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| Well, not to start up again, but I will excuse timesones. I do agree with Skeptic to a degree on this, both when it comes to the Vancian system (which I like) in use with the Weave and when it comes to D&D combat system. I think there should be a Realms magic system that worked out from the idea of the Weave, with several different methods of magic, not the opposite. |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 16:07:44
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| Not to be obtuse, but aren't there already? I can distinctly recall that there are several alternate magical systems that are in use in several areas of Toril, detailed in 2nd Edition books. Or were these alternate systems not continued in 3.x? |
Edited by - Caedwyr on 11 Dec 2007 16:09:17 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 16:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
Not to be obtuse, but aren't there already? I can distinctly recall that there are several alternate magical systems that are in use in several areas of Toril, detailed in 2nd Edition books. Or were these alternate systems not continued in 3.x?
They weren't truly continued. Southern Magic is a good example for that. Magic in Maztica and Kara Tur weren't really addressed either... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 16:48:00
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** Cough, cough.. **
Spellfire is probably the best example (in FR) of a "setting lore" vs "good game design" problem with D&D.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 17:02:24
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Got a cold?
You know...one thing that has made me wonder when reading your posts... why have you bothered with FR and D&D in general, Skeptic? From most of what you have said you appear to be quite unhappy with either the setting or the game...maybe both, you could have quit... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 17:04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
You know...one thing that has made me wonder when reading your posts... why have you bothered with FR and D&D in general, Skeptic? From most of what you have said you appear to be quite unhappy with either the setting or the game...maybe both, you could have quit...
In fact, I love both, the problem lies in the mix 
If you want to discuss it more, let's take this to MP. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 11 Dec 2007 17:05:42 |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2007 : 17:07:20
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| You know how it is. smoker's don't like cigarettes...sometimes. why don't they quit. maybe because they love hating it so much that they just prefer to go on hating it. (jk) |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 06:33:40
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And Rich's posts from yesterday.
"We're pretty committed to the scope of the changes we're making at this point. We've got a number of projects underway (several novel series, the new FRCG, the FRPG), and we're just not going to seriously reverse course now. Adjusting the implementation of some things -- sure, that's still possible. Putting everything back? Sorry, we've got to see this through.
Viewed in isolation, no single change we're contemplating would really pass the "is this ABSOLUTELY necessary?" test. If we subject every change we're planning to that test, then nothing would change (which, no doubt, would please a segment of our audience). But we don't think we can stay exactly where we are forever.
In my opinion, there is a *minimum* amount of change that's desirable with a campaign update, and a *maximum* amount of change. Change too little, and you haven't provided that clear starting point needed to entice new fans... or reawaken the interest of old fans who have mastered everything we've shown them so far. Change too much, and it's not the same property anymore. Most of the arguments we're having are about where each of those marks really lies."
and
"A couple of good questions, Roman -- I wanted to wait until I had a few minutes to try to respond with some thought.
1a. I have a pet theory I call the "elevator" theory. Each year, a certain number of people enter our demographic and become D&D players. We want to make sure that there's an elevator with an open door waiting on the "first floor" to take them up to the Realms. It's been a long time since we put an elevator on the first floor for the potential Realms fans. Without a regular influx of new fans, pure "life friction" and attrition will thin out the number of Realms games being played and books being read. If there's a proselytizing network out there as you suggest, they're not proselytizing enough to fill that elevator for us. We have to do some work too.
1b. We're not moving Realms toward Eberron. In what way do you think we are? (Other than something cosmetic like the number of deities?) There's nothing driving us to make Realms more like Eberron.
2. When we ask gamers what turns them off of Forgotten Realms, one of the hits we keep getting back is "all those high-level NPCs steal the limelight." Whether the perception is an accurate reflection of how the setting really works is immaterial--it's a perception that stops gamers from trying out the Realms. We're not planning a campaign of wanton NPC slaughter, but I sure need to show the broader gaming audience that it's time to let go of that perception. Lecturing undecided purchasers about how NPCs *should* be used in the Realms doesn't seem like a winning strategy to me. How else could we tackle this problem of perception without real change?
3. No, I can't guarantee no upheavals for three years. First off, it's not up to me. More to the point: I can tell you right now that we don't have any planned, and that we'd like to avoid Realms-shaking events for a while... but if a Bob Salvatore or Paul Kemp or Elaine Cunningham some other talented author drops a truly kick-butt story proposal in our laps that happens to shake the Realms, we'd be foolish to tell them that we can't accommodate that outstanding story. If it's the *right* story, it's the right story."
and
"Well... yes, they actually make out pretty well. Cormyr regains much of its strength, and the return of a strong elven realm in Myth Drannor definitely improves the situation around Cormanthor. I'll say more about that when I can."
and
"No, and no. We posted a Cosmology preview article a few weeks back that covered this ground pretty well."
to this question: Will D&D 4e use the great wheel cosmology?
Will the Forgotten Realms cosmology return to the great wheel?
and
"No, nothing that you know to be true will be substantially altered. (Every now and then we find reason to tweak something, of course.)
Now, sometimes we take events that are known and spin much larger stories out of them... so a timeline entry from a long time ago might just be the tip of an iceberg, really. In fact, there are a couple of real jaw-droppers in that regard coming up. But nothing we add in way of detail, explanation, and heretofore unexplored or unknown events will "undo" existing Realms history. Your Grand History of the Realms is going to be honored as written for the foreseeable future."
and
"Yep, I would agree that nuked = wanton slaughter to most folks. I think Chris used a shortcut he didn't really mean to use.
Many high-level characters will be exiting the stage in 4e, but many others will still be around. No one's getting killed off specifically because they're high level. Now, there are some Chosen who are getting removed from the stage specifically because they're Chosen; the Chosen tend to be the "poster children" in the wider D&D audience for the perception that Realms games are about a set of uber-NPCs." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 14:13:30
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quote:
"Yep, I would agree that nuked = wanton slaughter to most folks. I think Chris used a shortcut he didn't really mean to use.
Many high-level characters will be exiting the stage in 4e, but many others will still be around. No one's getting killed off specifically because they're high level. Now, there are some Chosen who are getting removed from the stage specifically because they're Chosen; the Chosen tend to be the "poster children" in the wider D&D audience for the perception that Realms games are about a set of uber-NPCs."
Well, I appreciate that Rich addressed my question. I'm still pretty set on not using "the new Realms", but I appreciate Rich's professionalism. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 14:56:39
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| this is beginning to sound a little better, at least |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 17:16:59
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| another thing, can someone please direct me to the person who the changes are up to? It seemsevery realms author is saying that. it just seems like an awful lot of plausible deniability. no disrespect intended |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
Edited by - Aravine on 12 Dec 2007 17:22:37 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 17:39:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
another thing, can someone please direct me to the person who the changes are up to? It seemsevery realms author is saying that. it just seems like an awful lot of plausible deniability. no disrespect intended
There isn't one person who is making these changes, it's a group decision. So, really, there isn't one person who you can contact to discuss the changes..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 19:02:29
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When a number of people where dissing Rich Baker on the FR messageboards on the WOTC website, Chris Perkins stepped up and said that he was main person in charge of the group proposing the changes.
He would be the person to contact, if you really want to put something forward. Just be aware that the course is set and the recent info from Rich Baker is the second declaration that the direction they are taking the Realms is basically set in stone.
I wouldn't expect too much out of any dialogue with Chris. They are sticking with the overall plan for the changes to the realms and they are sticking to their 'release plan' for information released between now and next August.
WOTC is driving this particular bus. Enjoy the ride. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 20:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria
WOTC is driving this particular bus. Enjoy the ride.
Or get off  |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2007 : 23:10:01
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| Just don't get run over by it . |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 02:18:34
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| The WotC-Bus is like that bus from the movie Speed: if they slow down sales the company explodes, but by always driving like crazy, they're causing a lot of collateral damage. |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 02:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
The WotC-Bus is like that bus from the movie Speed: if they slow down sales the company explodes, but by always driving like crazy, they're causing a lot of collateral damage.
PDK - your hot for the movie references aren't you? Yesterday was "Raiders of the Lost Ark" today is "Speed" - what next? |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 03:10:13
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quote:
"Yep, I would agree that nuked = wanton slaughter to most folks. I think Chris used a shortcut he didn't really mean to use.
Many high-level characters will be exiting the stage in 4e, but many others will still be around. No one's getting killed off specifically because they're high level. Now, there are some Chosen who are getting removed from the stage specifically because they're Chosen; the Chosen tend to be the "poster children" in the wider D&D audience for the perception that Realms games are about a set of uber-NPCs."
Everytime I read another statement like that I just close my eyes and say "Don't worry 5e is only like 5 years away and with any luck Wotc will be under new owner ship again!"
Maybe the next group to own it will appreciate what their "poster children" have done for them. Why nuke them? Just quit writting lore about them and let us handle the grunt work. Quit trying to micromanage my friends personal campaigns. In other words simple enough for even a CEO to understand, you guys do the paint by number outlines and we will fill in the spots with whichever darn colors we choose, regardless of what number you put there. I think someone had an AO complex and does not know how to reign themselves in.
Thank you for listening to this rant, sponsored by two weeks without sleep courtesy of my sweet 2 month old boy Tristan, who is far more deserving of my restraint than 4E.
Good Night! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 03:12:48
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Rich's posts from today.
"Here's the deal: For years now, every new Drizzt novel Bob Salvatore writes has hit the New York Times list (and hit higher just about each time). No secret sales info there, that's public knowledge. We'd be fools not to make use of that popularity.
So why do we like a character such as Drizzt, but want to move some of the Chosen off-stage? It's a fair question. After all, Drizzt is probably *perceived* in the audience at large as an uber-NPC just as much as Elminster or the Simbul, even though he's not really in their league. But as I said above, he is clearly one of the most popular things we've got going."
and
"I think my position is pretty clear: We don't have any new RSEs in the works right now (other than the Spellplague, of course), and we're not anxious to plan any. But I won't guarantee that we won't do one, because I won't promise that we won't seize on a brilliant opportunity or development if one comes our way and that's what it takes to pull it off."
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 17:09:25
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| just so y'all know, Drizzt is really starting to get on my nerves |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2007 : 17:26:10
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| but that doesn't really matter, does it? :( |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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4e FR
