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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 06:06:21
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We already knew something unusual concerning the [complete] nature of 'Abeir-Toril' was coming. Back in April, during a discussion about the origins of the name Abeir-Toril, our Lady Hooded One made this somewhat prophetic revelation:-
""No, Toril is not (and never was) a moon. But (though NDAs prevent me from saying one word more on this), I remind scribes that the name is Abeir-Toril, and for the last few decades, all we've seen is Toril. Hint. Hint.
love,
THO"
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Edited by - The Sage on 21 Sep 2007 06:07:44 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 10:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
We already knew something unusual concerning the [complete] nature of 'Abeir-Toril' was coming. Back in April, during a discussion about the origins of the name Abeir-Toril, our Lady Hooded One made this somewhat prophetic revelation:-
""No, Toril is not (and never was) a moon. But (though NDAs prevent me from saying one word more on this), I remind scribes that the name is Abeir-Toril, and for the last few decades, all we've seen is Toril. Hint. Hint.
love,
THO"
So Abeir was the moon? Of course there can be other answers that mortals can not understand. We did crystal spheres, we did spell jaming that ignored the spheres, etc.
What do we get offered now is yet to be seen. |
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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 16:17:45
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Damn, I hate these tantalizing tibits as I keep flipping and turning them to see what the picture may be from the puzzle pieces.
Here are knowns:
The Orc King sample chapter refers to "...and the discordant
and disastrous joining of two worlds..." It has not be determined if this is a literal or figurative event.
Then there is the Abeir-Toril teaser with the implication that the term 'Toril' was used for decades not as a contraction of Abeir-Toril but because the physical Abeir was missing. A missing part of the Realms or the world perhaps?
And then there is the mysterious reference by Ed and Eric that the 'spellplague' was not new and had seeds in the grey box FR campaign setting. When a realms fan pressed Ed on this at GenCon, all Ed replied was the reference in the grey box was 'esoteric'.
I'm trying to put this all together and it is clear as mud.
The first question that needs answering is if the two worlds reference and the Abeir-Toril reference are one and the same or two different parts of the puzzle?
Is the spellplague and the Abeir-Toril reference related together in some way or are they two distinct and separate events?
Is the rise of the Empire of Netheril (the Orc King sample chapter reference)the rise to dominance of the Empire of Shade to restore the glory of the former Netheril Empire? Or is it a temporal inversion that literally establishes the Netheril Empire for the lost past to the present?
How is this for a theory? The collapse of the Weave at the instance of Karsus's folly catapults a temporal 'twin' of the Empire of Netheril forward in time, where it appears in 1385 as the Weave collapses when Mystra dies. My theory is supported by the reference to the lands (reality) being mutable when the Spellplague hits full on and the Weave collapses.
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Edited by - BlackMoria on 21 Sep 2007 16:25:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 20:01:48
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But my theory works with ALL spoilers, and covers the new 'unknown' lore as well, even changes to creatures names and appearences. ANYTHING could have happened on the world where the Sundering NEVER took place.
Perhaps the Rauthym homelands never sank, and the Northmen had a greater presence, maybe Imaskar and Netheril never fell, creating armies of warforged to battle one another?
All bets are off if they go with that. They basically wind up with a canon reason for changing ALL the canon. 
So we still don't know for sure what the 'grey box' reference was, eh? That would probably answer at least a few questions...
Edit: I found this is Ed's intro right on page four -
"The Forgotten Realms derive their name from the ficticious fact upon which play in my campaign is based: that a multiverse exists, of countless parallel co-existing Prime Material Planes...
accent mine.
Notice the word parallel - not much of a reference, really... even a wee bit 'esoteric'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2007 20:12:29 |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 09:49:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
So Abeir was the moon?
I thought Ed made it clear that Abeir wasn't a moon? That's how I read the part Sage quoted above. *shrug*
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 13:36:07
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As I recall, the reason why that particular tidbit came up was because it was one scribe's speculation that Abeir could possibly be "another" celestial body orbiting Toril. Ed's quote above seems to deny that possibility however.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Julian Grimm
Seeker
86 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 05:38:04
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| Could Abeir be the Faeruninan name for Earth? |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 07:06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So we still don't know for sure what the 'grey box' reference was, eh? That would probably answer at least a few questions...
Since I thought the reference was specifically to the Spellplague, I was betting on the news report entry for Ches, Year of the Worm:
"Marchayn of Archendale, the feared "Mad Witch" of the Thunder Peaks, has been found in her citadel, mindless and drooling, amidst chaos. All about her tower lay the dead bodies of the orcs (and worse) that served her, and much of her tower is now a fireblackened
shell. The herdsman who found her reported to merchants of Arabel that Marchayn (who soon died and whose body was burned by the herdsman) repeated endlessly, 'Dove! Dove! Smashed the black star . . . Dove!' (*)"
Sounds like Spellplague to me...
"News reports that will NOT ever have follow-up in the published Realms material are marked with a (*)."
If this is the reference, too bad WotC didn't stick with it. |
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Edited by - Xysma on 23 Sep 2007 07:08:22 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 10:04:44
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Now, where did I read this???? - I just can't remember! But what if the word
'Abeir' changed over time to 'Abeiron/Eberron'?
Might we be seeing the merging of those two worlds? And therefore will some rules changes be seen in the FR 4th Ed. that were originally introduced in the game setting of Eberron - like e.g. action points?
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Julian Grimm
Seeker
86 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 16:08:27
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| I, for one, would not buy the next FR books if they merged it with Eberron. |
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Shearre
Acolyte
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 17:46:06
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I think it very unlikely Wizards wouldd merge the Realms with Eberron. Both settings have a lot of incompatible ideas that would completely change the nature of the other setting. (Most particularly, differing planar structures and a very different conception of gods/divine magic in general) In any case it's been all but confirmed that Eberron's getting its own 4E book with James Wyatt at the helm. (Though I must admit I did once have this crossover fantasy of the continent of Sarlona appearing of the coast of Faerun, mostly cause I thought it would be interesting to see how the Realms would react to a nation like Riedra. Anyway, enough of my rambling)
Assuming that this Abeir thing is a new idea that came with 4th edition rather than something they've been building up to for a long time that just happened to coincide with an edition change, it follows that the reason for the change is likely to integrate some new aspect of 4th edition with the Realms as it is now (in the same way that the Spellplague exists to provide justification for 4e magic and 'points of light'). While we still don't know the full extent of the changes of 4e, I will note that the addition of a new race (these Eladrin guys) would be hard to do without some new plane/continent or the like being discovered (unless Eladrins are so similar to elves that they just say they're the new stats for gold elves). I'm betting that what ever Abeir is it will somehow introduce Eladrins (and maybe greater numbers of Tieflings) to the Realms. Maybe they're remanats of Netheril in some fashion; magically altered humans that fled the world just before/after Karsus worked his mojo maybe? It's all guesswork at this stage really.
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 18:28:26
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| But Eladrins are no new race, but an established old one, they are in the Monster Manual since MM I, living on the planes as the chaotic race of the three independent good races (Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrins). But all of a sudden they are assumed to be identical with gold and silver elves? This is a major change in established lore which cannot be easy explainend. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
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Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 23 Sep 2007 18:33:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 19:22:04
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Abeir could also very well be the land of the Fey, where they went after they fled Toril (taking a piece with them).
It could also tie into a connection to Greyhawk, which has always been considered a 'sister world' of sorts. Many characters from both settings travel back and forth on a regular basis, so this isn't too far fetched (both worlds even have their own Khelben Arunsun). I only throw this out there as a possibility because of the 4e design teams insistance on merging FR rules with core, and some of the few things that have been told to us leads me to believe the merger may go deeper then just a mechanical thing (especially the stuff regarding the revisions to the Elves, mentioning them as worshippers of Obad-Hai).
But truth be told, it could mean anything at this point. There were at least three serepticious references to 'Abeir' in the last year. and with that "merger of two worlds" line from the Orc King spoiler it leads us to believe it was more then just a 'poetic' reference. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2007 19:23:19 |
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Shearre
Acolyte
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 19:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
But Eladrins are no new race, but an established old one, they are in the Monster Manual since MM I, living on the planes as the chaotic race of the three independent good races (Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrins). But all of a sudden they are assumed to be identical with gold and silver elves? This is a major change in established lore which cannot be easy explainend.
Yes, I know all about 3.5e Eladrins, but given how different ther 4e versions are shaping up to be (At least if the article on 4e elves is implying what everyone thinks it is) I personally consider them a new race now. I'm betting they're just going to say that Gold Elves use Eladrin stats and forget the chaotic good outsiders ever existed (or else relegate them to vague references of "true Eladrins" or somesuch) but that's just my personal theory. |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 22:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Shearre
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
But Eladrins are no new race, but an established old one, they are in the Monster Manual since MM I, living on the planes as the chaotic race of the three independent good races (Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrins). But all of a sudden they are assumed to be identical with gold and silver elves? This is a major change in established lore which cannot be easy explainend.
Yes, I know all about 3.5e Eladrins, but given how different ther 4e versions are shaping up to be (At least if the article on 4e elves is implying what everyone thinks it is) I personally consider them a new race now. I'm betting they're just going to say that Gold Elves use Eladrin stats and forget the chaotic good outsiders ever existed (or else relegate them to vague references of "true Eladrins" or somesuch) but that's just my personal theory.
On the whole eladrin bit, WotC employees have strongly hinted on EN World that Ari Marmell's guess is right: the PHB "eladrins" are a material plane race and that the MM (or some other future monster book) will contain "more powerful" eladrins from the outer planes. Whether they'll be classified as fey or outsiders remains to be seen, and who knows what they're doing with alignment...
However, my thought is that the 4e PHB eladrin should just be the sun/moon elves in FR, whereas the 4e elves should be the wild/wood elves in FR. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 22:38:21
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| wasn't there some kind of addional races of faerun article in Dragon roughly an year ago with half Eladrin elves in it, fleshing some connection out and explaining that such a thing allready was alive? |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2007 : 22:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
wasn't there some kind of addional races of faerun article in Dragon roughly an year ago with half Eladrin elves in it, fleshing some connection out and explaining that such a thing allready was alive?
Celadrins. The article was entitled "Legacies of Ancient Empires". It was written by Eric L Boyd, and appeared in Dragon 350. The other races were azerblood, d'hin'ni, and worghests.
Sean K. Reynolds had something similar to celadrins on his website: eladree. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Sep 2007 22:52:35 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 01:33:33
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No, FR and Eberron aren't merging. No, Abeir isn't a "moon." Yes, my teaser stands.
And Ed has told one senior lorelord of the Realms the reference in the Old Gray Box, but warns that it got edited down to something that had to be explained to the lorelord (that's how esoteric it became in the initial editing of that book).
If the lorelord cares to "let out the secret," Ed has given him permission to do so, I understand.
love to all,
THO |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 02:53:11
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i had read somewhere, just the other day, that there was going to be some sort of mass migration from the eastern realms... which would explain the 'two worlds colliding' bit, i'd say.
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also, i'm sure it's been mentioned but i can't seem to find a mention of it...
does anyone know how long the spellplague and such is supposed to last?
(basically, how many years are supposed to have passed between 3.5 and 4th ed?) |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 08:17:00
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Everybody likes to speculate, so it's my turn! 
I'll aim high and mentally prepare to a long-lasting fall...
What about the plane of Concordant Opposition/Outlands merging with the Realms? It would basically mean having Sigil on Faerun and suddenly eladrins and tieflings would become more common...and perhaps Markustay is right and the Sundering is "nullified".
About Eladrins, I think they will be the elven equivalent of what Aasimars are for humans, very much like that guy in the Last Mythal trilogy. In this case of course I would voice for a return of Fey'ri as a parallel to tiefling, at least in the FR setting.
A bit too high, I know.
Wizbane |
Edited by - Wizbane on 24 Sep 2007 08:18:23 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 08:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
About Eladrins, I think they will be the elven equivalent of what Aasimars are for humans, very much like that guy in the Last Mythal trilogy. In this case of course I would voice for a return of Fey'ri as a parallel to tiefling, at least in the FR setting.
I was under the impression that 'Eladrins' (as 3E Outsiders) had been cut from the game completely, and thus, as the name was now available, the designers chose it to represent the 'High Elves' (as a Core Race) in the 4th Edition? This was done to distinct them from the 'Elves' in 4E (who are now an amalgam of the Wild/Wood Elven subraces). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 08:32:22
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| my point as well subtly pointing out Eric's Article about Celadrins and other planetouched ... have an idea about that that was a bone that he threw at us about how they are going to be explained to be ... and in lesser extend why they are around ... add up some planar immigration from mortals living on other planes due to the former thing about that a plane can only live with a greater god sponsoring it and you got it |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 11:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
About Eladrins, I think they will be the elven equivalent of what Aasimars are for humans, very much like that guy in the Last Mythal trilogy. In this case of course I would voice for a return of Fey'ri as a parallel to tiefling, at least in the FR setting.
I was under the impression that 'Eladrins' (as 3E Outsiders) had been cut from the game completely, and thus, as the name was now available, the designers chose it to represent the 'High Elves' (as a Core Race) in the 4th Edition? This was done to distinct them from the 'Elves' in 4E (who are now an amalgam of the Wild/Wood Elven subraces).
I think Asgetrion is right, but Wizbane's approach would make much more sense. But it seems that again an approach was chosen which will obliterate established lore. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 13:29:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, FR and Eberron aren't merging. No, Abeir isn't a "moon." Yes, my teaser stands.
And Ed has told one senior lorelord of the Realms the reference in the Old Gray Box, but warns that it got edited down to something that had to be explained to the lorelord (that's how esoteric it became in the initial editing of that book).
If the lorelord cares to "let out the secret," Ed has given him permission to do so, I understand.
love to all,
THO
I've heard quite a few people on different boards worried about FR and Eberron merging somehow so I just wanted to thank you THO for clearing this up. After all every small piece that we can see better makes the overall picture of the coming 4e easier to see. And I know that at least for me the lack of solid, reliable info is one of the hardest things about all this. So thanks THO, Ed, and anyone else, designer or otherwise for any info that you are allowed to talk about! |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
Edited by - sparhawk42 on 24 Sep 2007 13:32:31 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 15:15:48
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'Abeir-Toril' loosely translates as 'Cradle of Life' according to the ol' grey box - wonder which part Toril stands for... and what that might lead to further speculations.
If one would go by merging theories not so esotheric, the grey box mentions more than any other setting Dragonlance. (e.g. characters too high in levels on Krynn are requested by the powers that be to relocate to elsewhere with the vast majority going Toril-bound) Though this is probably more a sign of those times than anything else... |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 15:51:02
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| On the eladrin as a PC race issue, as I mentioned before somewhere, WotC has essentially confirmed that there will both be outsider eladrin and a weaker material plane version. See the first post here and links therein. |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 16:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
'Abeir-Toril' loosely translates as 'Cradle of Life' according to the ol' grey box - wonder which part Toril stands for... and what that might lead to further speculations.
Previous comments from both Ed and the Lady Hooded One, only add to the mystery.
From Ed... referenced in his "Origins of the Forgotten Realms" -
"Jeff contributed the name of the planet (Toril, to which he added the prefix Abeir to shift the world entry to the front of the alphabetical listings in the Old Grey Box) from his campaign. I had no world name because the folks in Faerun knew they lived on something that curved, but considered it all one land. Jeff also added a god (Waukeen), and reshaped everything into official rules format. (The gods from Jeff's own campaign had already been used in the Dragonlance setting, I believe.) Jeff and I became very close friends, and he managed the hard task of turning all the Realmslore I sent in to TSR every week (until they yelled at me to stop) into a coherent setting with both wit and humor. I can't thank him enough."
...
And this from THO -
"Correct. Jeff did create and name Waukeen, and did name "the planet" Abeir-Toril.
The name "Faerūn" (which means "home" in a long-ago, forgotten language) refers to the main continent of the published Realms. Ed's thinking was that "everyone" knew about the land they lived in, and its boundary seas, but not every culture "of today," Realmstime, knew it was on a spherical planet. There are various names among the Netherese, modern Halruaans, elves, etc, for the planet, but there was no one commonly-accepted one.
TSR needed an "official" label. Jeff was the handler, traffic cop, and "TSR end" of the Realms, and provided one. As with everything, he checked with Ed, and Ed said: fine. Sure. Go ahead.
love,
THO"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 17:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by lokilokust
i had read somewhere, just the other day, that there was going to be some sort of mass migration from the eastern realms... which would explain the 'two worlds colliding' bit, i'd say.
That is referenced in the GHotR, 1381 DR Year of the Starving p159
I'm inclined to disagree. I don't think that, in a world where other planes of existence are a known and verifiable fact, that a distant continent would be thought of as another world. |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 18:01:33
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see, i think you, and others, may be looking at the term 'world' too literally.
(especially since 'world's colliding' has often been used to refer to a great influx of one culture into another.)
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also, it strikes me that if quite some time is to have passed between 3.5 and 4e, it could be interesting to have a sort of 'forgotten realms in a new dark age' campaign. |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Time of Troubles 2.0 - Your opinion?
