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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 20:58:16
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A situation recently cropped up in my game in which a cleric of Shar rebuked and took command of an undead monster animated by a specialist necromancer (with no levels of cleric or any prestige class). Is there a mechanism for a standard necromancer to regain control of undead suddenly commanded by a clerical interloper? Is the situation different if the cleric serves a deity with the Undead portfolio (Velsharoon, the drow Whatshername, and -- for the die-hards -- Mellifleur)?
Your input is cordially welcomed, please!
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2007 : 04:58:35
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| Wow, this is actually a pretty big gap in the rules. I would suggest a contested check of the necromancer's INT versus the cleric's CHA. That would seem to be the most objective way to test their powers relative to one another. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2007 : 18:57:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasta Fzoul
Wow, this is actually a pretty big gap in the rules. I would suggest a contested check of the necromancer's INT versus the cleric's CHA. That would seem to be the most objective way to test their powers relative to one another.
That's a possibility. Anyone else want to pitch an idea for a solution?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2007 : 23:43:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by Pasta Fzoul
Wow, this is actually a pretty big gap in the rules. I would suggest a contested check of the necromancer's INT versus the cleric's CHA. That would seem to be the most objective way to test their powers relative to one another.
That's a possibility. Anyone else want to pitch an idea for a solution?
I'd also give the cleric a bonus based on whether or not their deity was associated with death/undeath. And both might get bonuses based on their levels, because more power means more can be brought to bear for taking control of the undead. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2007 : 10:44:23
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| I would give a cleric, whose god is actively hating and persecuting all undeads like Lathander, give a bonus, too. This is something like the favored enemy of the ranger. Other gods, who aren’t as dedicated to the destruction of all things undead, would not give this bonus. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2007 : 19:53:53
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So you wise and learned folk would fill the rules gap by making it a struggle between their respective stats, aided or hindered by the cleric's deity's attitude towards undead, right?
(Why do people hate the undead so much? Undeath is just another phase of unlife....)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2007 : 22:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Why do people hate the undead so much? Undeath is just another phase of unlife...
I always wonder why authors rely so heavily on bad smelling undead like zombies? Any necromancer or death cleric with half a cup of brain goes for skeletons, bone creatures and the like. After a few weeks and month, they won't smell one bit  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2007 : 22:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Is the situation different if the cleric serves a deity with the Undead portfolio (Velsharoon, the drow Whatshername, and -- for the die-hards -- Mellifleur)?
Just for you  , she goes by the name ...
K I A R A N S A L E E
... though only the Wizards and Lisa knew whether she will be around to fill in this job much longer. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2007 : 03:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Why do people hate the undead so much? Undeath is just another phase of unlife...
I always wonder why authors rely so heavily on bad smelling undead like zombies? Any necromancer or death cleric with half a cup of brain goes for skeletons, bone creatures and the like. After a few weeks and month, they won't smell one bit
I've played that up with necromancers in my game as well. I've had necromancers that not only have skeletal servants, but meticulously cleaned, then artistically laquered skelatons, especially for their house servants. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2007 : 15:47:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I've played that up with necromancers in my game as well. I've had necromancers that not only have skeletal servants, but meticulously cleaned, then artistically laquered skelatons, especially for their house servants.
Okay, Knight, I don't quite remember that one... must've been before my time. Whew!
Back On-Topic:
I really like the contested check for mindless undead. Whether or not it's in the "rules," I might consider this a good way of handling necromancers of the Arcane ONLY style versus the Divine style.
Thanks PF and Wooly for the rules (I'll be adding this to my "house rules".
On to undead with a mind. With the Necromancer basically having done everything all diplomatically, how would you think this would go? Would this be a ability check, or would this be something where the Cleric got complete control for a little while (emphasis on a short period of time)?
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2007 : 16:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I've played that up with necromancers in my game as well. I've had necromancers that not only have skeletal servants, but meticulously cleaned, then artistically laquered skelatons, especially for their house servants.
Okay, Knight, I don't quite remember that one... must've been before my time. Whew!
Back On-Topic:
I really like the contested check for mindless undead. Whether or not it's in the "rules," I might consider this a good way of handling necromancers of the Arcane ONLY style versus the Divine style.
Thanks PF and Wooly for the rules (I'll be adding this to my "house rules".
On to undead with a mind. With the Necromancer basically having done everything all diplomatically, how would you think this would go? Would this be a ability check, or would this be something where the Cleric got complete control for a little while (emphasis on a short period of time)?
/d
Yeah, you never ran into him that that campaign . . . though he is still out there somewhere . . .  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2007 : 19:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
A situation recently cropped up in my game in which a cleric of Shar rebuked and took command of an undead monster animated by a specialist necromancer (with no levels of cleric or any prestige class). Is there a mechanism for a standard necromancer to regain control of undead suddenly commanded by a clerical interloper? Is the situation different if the cleric serves a deity with the Undead portfolio (Velsharoon, the drow Whatshername, and -- for the die-hards -- Mellifleur)?
Your input is cordially welcomed, please!
I've just checked SRD Animate Dead and this says:
"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely." However, there is a limit to the amount of undead you can control - 4HD per caster level. If the Necromancer exceeded the number of undead then I'd say he's stumped if he hadn't then the cleric shouldn't have been able to rebuke the undead.
That's my take anyway.  |
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Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
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Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 26 Aug 2007 19:11:19 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 19:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
A situation recently cropped up in my game in which a cleric of Shar rebuked and took command of an undead monster animated by a specialist necromancer (with no levels of cleric or any prestige class). Is there a mechanism for a standard necromancer to regain control of undead suddenly commanded by a clerical interloper?
(snip)
Your input is cordially welcomed, please!
I've just checked SRD Animate Dead and this says:
"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely." However, there is a limit to the amount of undead you can control - 4HD per caster level. If the Necromancer exceeded the number of undead then I'd say he's stumped if he hadn't then the cleric shouldn't have been able to rebuke the undead.
That's my take anyway.
But if one takes that literally, then undead created by an NPC spellcaster using animate dead couldn't be rebuked and commanded by a neutral or evil PC cleric, which leaves a lot of clerics in the lurch. In the situation I was describing, the zombie was created by a PC necromancer, and then taken control of by a PC cleric. The rules don't supply a mechanism for the necromancer to regain control once lost. In our game it was a fairly easy matter: the cleric just told the zombie to go back to obeying its previous master; if she had been unwilling to relinquish control, however, there's no rules provision for a single-class necromancer to "get back" an undead he created and over which he unwillingly lost control. One hopes that some future product from Wizards will clarify this matter for us.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 06 Sep 2007 21:02:36 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 10:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
But if one takes that literally, then undead created by an NPC spellcaster using animate dead couldn't be rebuked and commanded by a neutral or evil PC cleric, which leaves a lot of clerics in the lurch.
My take here is that the HD limit means there are only so many undead an Necromancer can create before he or she loses control of them. Sure, the necromancer can populate whole areas with undead but he may only have X amount under his control.
The spell description looks quite clear to me. However, since you are actively exploring this area it could be that I am in the wrong. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Darkhund
Acolyte
34 Posts |
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darksongknight
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 10:29:56
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Did the necromancer relinquish control of the undead willingly? Or did the cleric use their abilities to "snatch" them, so to speak?
If the cleric took them without the nercromancer's consent, my guess is that once the cleric's ability to rebuke/turn undead ended/exhausted, the control would revert back to the necromancer.
However, if the necromancer gave them up willingly, the undead would either A)become inert or B) become free-willed (once the cleric was finished commanding them).
If the necromancer and cleric were wrestling for control over the undead, I would have them make caster level checks against each other. Once again, when the cleric's ability to rebuke/command undead expired, control would revert back to the necromancer.
Just my opinion.
There is an entire prestige class, called the Yathrinsee, that is a sort of necromancer/cleric. It is very nice for followers of Kiaransalee, the drow goddess of undeath and vengeance, as Zanan noted very vividly.  |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 19:22:25
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Andy Collins provided an answer which I consider authoritative in reply to a different question in "Sage Advice," Dragon Magazine #347, September 2006:
quote:
Each time one of the controllers gives a command, the target follows that command to the exclusion of all other activities. As long as the commands don't conflict, the target simply follows all commands given.
The only sticky situation comes when the orders conflict, but that's handled on page 172 of the Player's Handbook: "If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys."
I presume Mr. Collins was referencing the 3.$ PHB, which I don't own or use, but I think that the rule is good and covers the situation which developed in my game.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 04:25:17
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| Hey, I was close! |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 02:25:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
A situation recently cropped up in my game in which a cleric of Shar rebuked and took command of an undead monster animated by a specialist necromancer (with no levels of cleric or any prestige class). Is there a mechanism for a standard necromancer to regain control of undead suddenly commanded by a clerical interloper? Is the situation different if the cleric serves a deity with the Undead portfolio (Velsharoon, the drow Whatshername, and -- for the die-hards -- Mellifleur)?
Your input is cordially welcomed, please!
I've just checked SRD Animate Dead and this says:
"The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely." However, there is a limit to the amount of undead you can control - 4HD per caster level. If the Necromancer exceeded the number of undead then I'd say he's stumped if he hadn't then the cleric shouldn't have been able to rebuke the undead.
That's my take anyway.
I think this rule is kind of like inertia - that objects in motion stay in motion until acted upon by outside forces.
I think the "under your control indefinitely" means unless acted upon by an outside force (a stronger force), which would lead me to use the stats checks to decide who gets the undead. |
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He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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Necromancer vs. cleric for undead control
