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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 21:13:12
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Up until 4e, yes, you are right. Despite the editon or the company publishing the rules, settings were comparable on equal ground.
But WotC has changed the rules, both literally and figuratively. Whereas every setting was trying to be 'better' then every other one out there, this is no longer the case.
Here is a better comparison - What immerses you more, a play or a movie (with the same story)? 4e is a Play - you can see that the actors are on an obvious 'set', with 2-dimensional backdrops a stage props. The purpose of a play is to involve you with the characters and THEIR stories, not the world around them. In a movie it's differnt - picture the Realms being the blockbuster film with the largest budget ever... like Waterworld, only good. 
You don't just get involved in the characters - you get caught-up in the action and the scenery. Hollywood spends a huge amount of their budgets on sets and locations, becase they want you to think you are peaking into a real world. Thats 3e and earlier - the mindset was to make you think it was all real. 4e, on the other hand, is just a game, and makes no allusions to being anything else.
Its all about the PCs, and what THEY do, not whats around them.
And just like Plays vs Movies, some people enjoy one, while others prefer the other... but neither precludes the other, and a person CAN enjoy both.
And yes, I needn't have bothered to explain myself yet again, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their minds about anything - you are right about simply aggreeing to disagree.
Cheers --- Mark |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2008 21:16:55 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 03:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And yes, I needn't have bothered to explain myself yet again, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their minds about anything - you are right about simply aggreeing to disagree.
Cheers --- Mark
I believe we just arguing semantics though. The new setting is just that a new setting. Its certainly not the Realms, not with the hack job Bruce Cordell did anyway |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 18:15:39
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I own the first 3 campaign settings and I love them all very much.
Therefore I was very enthusiastic, when I heard, that a new campaign setting was about to come out.
After a thourough read through at the games shop, I was utterly disappointed. It contains no information whatsoever, all the spirit and love for details of the previous ones is gone. In the end I was so frustrated, that I put it back in the shelve and for sure, that's 4th edition for me. Fortunately there's still a lot of 3rd edition to buy.
What a pity... |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 02:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Iliphar1
I own the first 3 campaign settings and I love them all very much.
Therefore I was very enthusiastic, when I heard, that a new campaign setting was about to come out.
After a thourough read through at the games shop, I was utterly disappointed. It contains no information whatsoever, all the spirit and love for details of the previous ones is gone. In the end I was so frustrated, that I put it back in the shelve and for sure, that's 4th edition for me. Fortunately there's still a lot of 3rd edition to buy.
What a pity...
it is a shame |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Magister Sunstrider
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 20:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Iliphar1
I own the first 3 campaign settings and I love them all very much.
Therefore I was very enthusiastic, when I heard, that a new campaign setting was about to come out.
After a thourough read through at the games shop, I was utterly disappointed. It contains no information whatsoever, all the spirit and love for details of the previous ones is gone. In the end I was so frustrated, that I put it back in the shelve and for sure, that's 4th edition for me. Fortunately there's still a lot of 3rd edition to buy.
What a pity...
it is a shame
Agreed, I looked at the 4E Realms and ended up so disappointed that even though I walked into the store intending to buy it, I walked out without it. |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 23:37:19
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The FRCG kinda reminds me of the 3E FRCS. When I started playing D&D and bought my copy of the FRCS I was overwhelmed by the size of the world but slightly disappointed by the lack of detail.
The FRCG is even less detailed. It's enough to start playing the Realms but you really have to fill in the blanks.
I have mixed feelings about the new Realms and 4E as a whole. I sure hope Wotc starts publishing some good campaign supplements for new players and old ones alike. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 00:43:53
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If you didn't hear, and WOTC has said it more then once, they won't be publishing any more printed FR sourcebooks and it'll only come through the online material and novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
I have mixed feelings about the new Realms and 4E as a whole. I sure hope Wotc starts publishing some good campaign supplements for new players and old ones alike.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 15:29:48
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| Visiting the RPG/fantasy section of the bookstore is no longer a routine for me. Now I mainly visit the nature and gardening sections. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 15:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If you didn't hear, and WOTC has said it more then once, they won't be publishing any more printed FR sourcebooks and it'll only come through the online material and novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
I have mixed feelings about the new Realms and 4E as a whole. I sure hope Wotc starts publishing some good campaign supplements for new players and old ones alike.
But what is the sense of that? I remember the first time I read the Manual of the Planes at a friend's house. It was a book of wonders for my 14-year old eyes, reading about the planes and the different beings that lived there. It wouldn't have felt nearly as good to read it on the net... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 15:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
But what is the sense of that? I remember the first time I read the Manual of the Planes at a friend's house. It was a book of wonders for my 14-year old eyes, reading about the planes and the different beings that lived there. It wouldn't have felt nearly as good to read it on the net...
Probably because WotC has reason to believe that any further sourcebooks wouldn't sell well, and they'd have better economic success with DDI. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 16:14:35
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On top of what Rino said, Wizards has decided to do a new setting a year. 2009's is Eberron, they, also, get three printed books and then Wizard's moves on to the setting for 2010. I dunno, but for some reason Wizard's decided this.
However, this doesn't mean that there won't be more core material printed every year, which there will be. It only is for setting material.
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If you didn't hear, and WOTC has said it more then once, they won't be publishing any more printed FR sourcebooks and it'll only come through the online material and novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
I have mixed feelings about the new Realms and 4E as a whole. I sure hope Wotc starts publishing some good campaign supplements for new players and old ones alike.
But what is the sense of that? I remember the first time I read the Manual of the Planes at a friend's house. It was a book of wonders for my 14-year old eyes, reading about the planes and the different beings that lived there. It wouldn't have felt nearly as good to read it on the net...
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 16:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
But what is the sense of that?
Without getting into any arguments for or against WotC, a lot of people have been wondering what the sense is for a lot of WotC's recent decisions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 04:30:52
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| Mass Hysteria? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 05:18:20
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Did you just see Ghostbusters like I did? That's the first line that popped into my head.
"Lenny, you will have saved the lives of millions of registered voters." |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 06:40:06
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Heh.
That's also what Markus's earlier "Mass Hysteria" post reminded me of, when I read it. Hence, my "Dogs and cats living together" reply.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Nov 2008 06:40:45 |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 23:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If you didn't hear, and WOTC has said it more then once, they won't be publishing any more printed FR sourcebooks and it'll only come through the online material and novels.
Then what's the point in publishing a 4E Realms Campaign? I think most people would rather have a nice source book than some downloadable DDI articles, or is it just me? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 00:44:42
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Well, this week will bring a new supplement for FREE from myself and Markustay...
He has already finished the awesome map and is going over the first four sections of the material we have put together.
I am not saying I am a great writer; but I'm hoping us working out this material on Ixinos' People/Culture/Land will encourage other top notch folks to give it a try and put out some really great stuff to be used for any number of editions and time frames. Eventually, it is my hope that WotC will pick up on this idea and take submissions as "official lore" to give us.
My hope anyway... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:48:10
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Don't ask me, go ask Wizards why they decided this. :) And I'd rather not speculate on why they are keeping the three strikes and you are out policy, as I call it. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If you didn't hear, and WOTC has said it more then once, they won't be publishing any more printed FR sourcebooks and it'll only come through the online material and novels.
Then what's the point in publishing a 4E Realms Campaign? I think most people would rather have a nice source book than some downloadable DDI articles, or is it just me?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 04:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Probably because WotC has reason to believe that any further sourcebooks wouldn't sell well, and they'd have better economic success with DDI.
I agree. There will be no campaign sourcebooks in order to "force" you into subscribing to DDi. I am not wasting my money on it, but I am not sure how many people are subscribing |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 06:18:20
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I think it's abundantly clear that Leira noted the publication of the Old Gray Box, and since then has been deliberately deceiving everyone in this world about events in the Forgotten Realms. Time of Troubles? Ao? Cyric? Maztica? Spellplague? Returned Abeir? All deceptions, though possibly admixed with a kernel of truth.
Hopefully, some day someone will pierce her lies and tell us about the actual events in the Realms that followed 1357 DR. |
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Inaubryn
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 05:02:46
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You all have to understand the phenomenon that is going on in all the various artistic mediums tv/film, games, music, etc). I'm in tv/films, and have a brother that's in the video game industry. Many that are among the new generation of of suits (company executives) are/were not those on the creative side. They're primary goal, and rightfully so, is to make money. The problem is, this primary goal has become the sole goal in many of these companies.
Movie studios would rather do remakes and sequels in order to trade off of known commodities, then invest in unknown properties. It lessens their risk and increases the odds of turning a profit.
Televion Studios fill their prime time lineups with reality shows sometimes at the expense of scripted shows. No writers have to be paid, actors don't have to be paid the sums they command, and the studio/network can film two seasons of these shows back to back with less overhead than a single season of a scripted show. Again, this maximizes profit.
Game Publishers focus on shorter development cycles, less assets, sequels, and smaller developers who don't command as much money for first run games for the same reasons as above... profit.
WotC is following the same business model. Putting the majority of their content on the internet cuts down on cost, as the overhead for design and uploading to the internet is a lot less than design, printing and distributing hard content. They can produce more content, more quickly. Even though they charge less for each bit of that content than they would for actual books, they'll produce more of it over the long run and theoretically have access to a much larger customer base through the internet.
Considering the current state of the economy, I wouldn't be surprised if these guys/gals are high-fiving each other during their conference meetings.
All of the above examples are simplified business philosophies to make the point and answer what surely serves as the majority of WotC's recent business decisions.
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Edited by - Inaubryn on 23 Mar 2009 05:03:27 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 09:29:06
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Thread Necromancy! 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Inaubryn
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 18:36:14
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| Hah! I didn't even look at the date of the last post before posting. It's probably been longer than that since I've posted on Candlekeep at all. Oops. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 02:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Inaubryn
They can produce more content, more quickly.
I agree with most of your points except this one. If I was seeing a DDI with 3-4 FR articles a month, then I'd be a subscriber. A DDI with 3-4 FR articles a year has no attraction to me. "Dragon" and "Dungeon" despite going digital appear to have about the same content they had when they were in print. So I don't buy the "more content, more quickly" line. It's more like "same content and cheaper for us" line that is the reality of the situation.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 03:01:58
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Wow GK... I was just going to quote that same point. When all their online stuff was free (the Web-Enhancements all those great articles), they produced at least 10 times the amount of material that they do now that they are charging.
They are actually producing FAR less Realmslore now that they've gone to all the trouble of developing an online presence. It's like putting in a foundation, and then never bothering to build the house. 
I really, REALLY wonder what they do all day.... 
Oh.. thats right... work on NEXT YEAR's setting.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2009 03:02:45 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 04:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip>
Oh.. thats right... work on NEXT YEAR's setting.
And next year's PHB, next year's DMG, next year's MM, next year's ... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Inaubryn
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 05:13:49
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| Sorry guys. You're right. I should've stated that they could produce more overall content (not necessarily FR specific). Now whether they do or not is still up for debate. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 15:12:09
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Another problem I've noted - they aren't really producing any Realmslore at all. If you look at the paltry samplings that are supposed to have fed our FR-hunger, even what little they are doing isn't really what we (or anyone) wants.
Last three 'Realmslore' articles -
Returned Abeir
Warforged in the Realms
Using Sharn in core
I think Brian's Moonshaes article was the very last of the real Realmslore.
Unless you count the Zhent Headless Horseman.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The New FRCS
