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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 01:30:39
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| "accidental lame character" is likely a Wizard with Int of 3 as a gross example. It sounds like stats defime what character you should play. Low Dex thieves do not work well, etc. Perhaps a return of minimun stats to take a class? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 01:35:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, here is the link to the 4E Forgotten Realms discussion thread at (I hate using this term) Gleemax:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13446690&posted=1
If you feel so inclined, you may want to make your opinion heard, if only so you know that you've said your peace. It amazes me that some of the first posters are people that aren't fans of the Realms either trying to modify a setting they already don't like or calling for is dissolution.
I want to go there and comment, but I can't... Gleemax is WotC, so my refusal to participate on their forums is extended to there. I won't go back until my wrongful banning is rescinded. And that'll happen about the same time Bane hangs up the evil gig and joins the Girl Scouts.
Gleemax is Bane's latest evil stunt... have you not noticed the colors?   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 01:35:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
What's an "accidental lame character"? Where there any classes that were truly not constructive or useful before? Isn't it at least partly about what the player brings to the table (and of course, roleplaying)?
The first time you try a Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 character, you understand what is an "accidental lame character" under 3.x.
D&D assumes that combat take much of the time spent at the table, so the "spot-light" balance can be ensured with a good "combat-power" balance.
However, the rules make it quite easy to come with characters of the same level with vastly different "combat-power"*.
It seems they have worked hard to make it less a problem under 4E.
What is a lot more interesting in the text linked above, is the more open "encounter" definition, including "social interaction" ones.
We can guess that characters will not only have different abilities to kill monsters, but also to interact with various NPCs in different ways, that's really good news.
*And this without using a rule-loop or 40 different splatbooks. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 18 Aug 2007 01:37:03 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 01:41:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
New details : http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204357&page=1
Just a word : Wow !
Great -- D&D is becoming WoW. If I want to play WoW, I'll play WoW. I won't play WoW if I want D&D, though. 
One line in particular enrages me:
quote:
We are still investigating, digital issues will be usable without being connected. Books You will need to be logged in to use them. Still working out how to make this work for you and for us.
Excuse me? I pay for something, but then I can't use it when and where I want unless I'm tethered to a computer? Oh, piss all over that. I'm beginning to rethink my earlier stance... I don't play D&D to be tethered to my computer. If I can't use material without an internet connection, then I won't buy that material. I may just stick with 3.5 and tell them where to put their 4E stuff.
It's not about being resistant to change. It's about being resistant to having arbitrary limits placed on things I pay for.
yuck
I'll admit I have about 40gigs of pdfs, but I absolutely HATE Reading on my monitor. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 01:49:36
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| Well you could print them out *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 01:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
We can guess that characters will not only have different abilities to kill monsters, but also to interact with various NPCs in different ways, that's really good news.
True, true.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 01:56:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well you could print them out *wink*
And pay an equal sum of dollars for a pile of B/W-prints that you'd pay for a bound four color book? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 02:00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well you could print them out *wink*
And pay an equal sum of dollars for a pile of B/W-prints that you'd pay for a bound four color book?
I did not say it was a prefect answer, just an alternitive to reading files on screen. *Smiles* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 02:05:04
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| Hmmm, wouldn't black and white printouts actually be cheaper overall? And yes, I can understand not wanting to gaze at a computer screen all the time. Reading paper is more relaxing and easier on the eyes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 02:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I didn't think you were referring to WoW at all -- but reading thru the stuff on that link, I was thinking they were trying to turn D&D into WoW -- and I don't want that.
And yeah, physical books are one thing -- but they specifically state you have to be logged in to use them. So that means online content won't be available offline -- and if I have to pay to access it, I want it available at any time after I've paid for it.
My thoughts *exactly* - all I have read about this 'new and shining 4th Edition' reminds me of WoW, Diablo II and similar MMORPGs and computer games.
Clearly defined character and monster roles? No more unplayable characters? No more wizards slinging out crossbows? You will never be out of spells? Difference between an elf fighter and a dwarf fighter? Your weapon of choice will matter as you progress levels? You'll be playing online? (etc.)
Sounds like we will get a similar "feat tree" for weapon skills as Severance or Diablo II has. It also sounds like we will have less versatile choices for choosing feats and skills, as our characters have more "clearly defined roles"? I would also bet that "never running out of spells" would mean something like a "rechargeable" mana system (a la WoW, for example). 
I was also wondering what does it means that the monsters will have "clearly defined roles" in encounters - will it be some sort of generalized "templates", such as 'orc scout', 'orc shaman' or 'dangerous raging orc'? (which seems to be the preferred approach to monsters in most CRPGs)
And how will all those NPCs fit into this "more heroic" concept? Will they pick character levels, too, or is there any system for statting craftsmen or merchants with "less heroic" skills such as Profession or Craft? Reading between the lines it almost seems like they have a "clearly defined role", too, as being "meaningless flavour-text people between the encounters"?  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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LucianBarasu
Fellaren-Krae Co-ordinator
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 02:34:10
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I love this site, and I hate to be the scowler and the pouter in the corner...
but Ladies and Gentlemen...Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons: The Gathering Edition 4
Soon we shall see Dungeons & Dragons : Weathertop, and Dungeons and Dragons: Oasis, and Dungeons & Dragons: Ice Age.
*ponders about the new PrC of : Black Lotus*
i'm firmly deciding on going back to 2nd edition (where I have more books) and hug my ThAC0!
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Lucian "The Bringer" Barasu
Fellaren Krae Project Co-Ordinator
"Why do you cry?"
"He is Conan, Cimmerian. He won't cry... So I cry for him."
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 02:34:42
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| Well I thought 3.0 was more computer friendly, 4.0 just might be in love with computers however we do not know the whole plan yet. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 02:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Hmmm, wouldn't black and white printouts actually be cheaper overall? And yes, I can understand not wanting to gaze at a computer screen all the time. Reading paper is more relaxing and easier on the eyes.
I don't know about exact printing costs in the U.S., but I think it'll cost about the same sum, even if you use your own printer (when you add the subscription cost to what you pay for paper and ink).
If you use a printing house, at least here in Finland most of them charge a stiff price (about 20 euros) for "security reasons" (risking a potential virus infection) - and that's a hefty sum if you only wish to print a single article/adventure. And if you wish to print at a public library, for example, you will paying 10 cents/page (10 euros for a 100 pages!). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 02:49:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Hmmm, wouldn't black and white printouts actually be cheaper overall? And yes, I can understand not wanting to gaze at a computer screen all the time. Reading paper is more relaxing and easier on the eyes.
I don't know about exact printing costs in the U.S., but I think it'll cost about the same sum, even if you use your own printer (when you add the subscription cost to what you pay for paper and ink).
If you use a printing house, at least here in Finland most of them charge a stiff price (about 20 euros) for "security reasons" (risking a potential virus infection) - and that's a hefty sum if you only wish to print a single article/adventure. And if you wish to print at a public library, for example, you will paying 10 cents/page (10 euros for a 100 pages!).
You're right--at a library or some other "printing place", you'd have to pay a fee (10 cents per page is standard for libraries, I think). But I imagine that using your own printer would cut down on the cost. And of course, it's a matter of what you are willing to trade off--i.e. less money for a less comfortable reading experience (staring at the monitor). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 03:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Clearly defined character and monster roles? No more unplayable characters? No more wizards slinging out crossbows? You will never be out of spells? Difference between an elf fighter and a dwarf fighter? Your weapon of choice will matter as you progress levels?
D&D alwas had "clearly defined character", that what's classes are. What exactly you feel wrong in the rest of the list ?
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
It also sounds like we will have less versatile choices for choosing feats and skills, as our characters have more "clearly defined roles"?
I have heard/read many designers comments saying that 4E has MORE options than 3E had for character's building.
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I would also bet that "never running out of spells" would mean something like a "rechargeable" mana system.
Three different kind of abilities : at will / per encounter / per day. Look at the Warlock and Reserve feats, that's probably the way 4E will do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I was also wondering what does it means that the monsters will have "clearly defined roles" in encounters.
It means that not every monster will be built as if it was a playable race. You won't get "complete stats" for every one of them, only what you really need to put it in play to have fun & challenging encounters.
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And how will all those NPCs fit into this "more heroic" concept? Will they pick character levels, too, or is there any system for statting craftsmen or merchants with "less heroic" skills such as Profession or Craft? Reading between the lines it almost seems like they have a "clearly defined role", too, as being "meaningless flavour-text people between the encounters"?
Don't tell me you need "complete stats" to do a bit of "acting" when the PCs meet the local innkeeper ?
They have already said that craft/professions skills didn't make the cut. It's a great idea because they don't need to be part of the rules, you can always add them as a bit of flavor/roleplay if you want. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 18 Aug 2007 03:27:13 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 04:12:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
D&D alwas had "clearly defined character", that what's classes are.
Which is another thing I was puzzled about being sold as something new and improved, when it really isn't. At least, that's the impression *I* got.
Again, I'm not being negative, I'm just trying to sift through all the marketing hype. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Aug 2007 04:14:42 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 04:22:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Which is another thing I was puzzled about being sold as something new and improved, when it really isn't. At least, that's the impression *I* got.
Again, I'm not being negative, I'm just trying to sift through all the marketing hype.
That's not a new game, it's a new edition of the D&D game.
In fact, IMHO they are pretty honest about that fact. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 18 Aug 2007 04:23:14 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 04:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
That's not a new game, it's a new edition of the D&D game.
In fact, IMHO they are pretty honest about that fact.
A new and improved edition. I'm not trying to argue with you, just playing the part of skeptical consumer. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 04:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Which is another thing I was puzzled about being sold as something new and improved, when it really isn't. At least, that's the impression *I* got.
Again, I'm not being negative, I'm just trying to sift through all the marketing hype.
That's not a new game, it's a new edition of the D&D game.
In fact, IMHO they are pretty honest about that fact.
With what appears to be a new designer, a person called Chris Sims that has only made 11 posts to the boards that should not be mentioned. He only became a member of the boards on 8-14-07 according to his/hers profile. The poster assures us quote:
Hi everyone. I saw a few questions I can answer.
You won't need anything on D&D Insider to play the game with the books you buy. D&D Insider is all about cool additional stuff.
Now, if you want to play from Kuwait with your buddies from the US, the Game Table will be for you.
Roles aren't restrictive. They do make it easier for new players to comprehend what they're doing for the party. They do guide some aspects of a class's design. But it's not like an MMO. I quit playing WoW--I won't be quitting 4e.
Source: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=907676&page=7
Now all I have to do is look up MMO and try to reconcil what this person says to "defined roles" that others have said.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 06:10:02
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How to say this...
I was excited when 2e switched, and even when 3e switched. I'm tired, sad, and angry with Wizards. The timing seems too short.
I'll be planting my flag with 3.5. Logging in to use a printed book is stupid. I love the game, would hate to see it die. Perhaps, just perhaps, the new designers are too engrossed in MMO's to see that there is a large part of the population who doesn't see a computer screen as "Face time" with your friends. Sure, I'd love to play a game with Sage, Wooly, and any number of folks here, but I'd like to do it in person (darn near impossible), or in an edition I care about. There, I said it.
Somewhere in the threads over at Wizards you'll see I spent about $700 annually on D&D for 8 years (Not far off, and hard to explain to my Wife when she asked... she's not a gamer). I've invested too many of my resources, especially in D&D minis (I'm terrible at them, but they are great fun, or were). I have a great 3.5 group. Why would I ruin that in favor of a "shiny" new rules system when the one I have works just fine?
Attracting new D&D players isn't about the system, or the marketing. It's about acccessibility, and insuring that it doesn't turn into an MMO on paper. (I'm fond of the WoW rpg PRE-WOW MMO).
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 06:12:38
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| So, according to the D&D Insider under Dragon Magazine:Columns:Design&Development:Race, there will now be 30 levels replacing the un-epic 20. Interesting, and I always felt, needed to stretch out the fast advancing rate that 3.0 and 3.5 allowed. So, where should epic level end? |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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eldritchknight
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 08:16:53
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Also, I have read that the changeling, from Eberron, will now be Core along with the tiefling, and included in the PHB. Hopefully they wont try to include the changeling into FR, try to explain how an entirely new race appears out of nowhere would be hard to do believably.
Also, I have read that the physical books have a code that will allow for additional content online. I would be surprised if you couldn't print the additional stuff out.
Overall, I am excited about 4E, primarily because I don't have a gaming group where I live, and have been playing via play by post for a long time now, and think that the Gaming Table is a good idea.
Just my two cents worth, though |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 08:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Ed doesn't use 3.x Rules in his campaign. He still pretty much uses 1/2E rules, plus from what I heard various House Rules.
Well I heard him actually say that when he was down here in Oz over a decade ago - he mentioned during a session he was DM'ing that he was still using 1st ed rules at that time. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 15:53:40
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well ... how to implement Changelings ...
hmm ... you take one mad wizard with a need of sealthy types ... merge a human and a doppleganger ... break out ... hiding in the population disguising as humans ... a couple of generations pass ... there you go ...
may not be the best ... but it is a 'useable' explaination ... its pretty much the same as those columns that Eytan makes about including 'odd' classes into FR :p |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 16:47:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
well ... how to implement Changelings ...
There is lots of potetial for this type of creature to appear in Waterdeep. Wasn't there some kind of doubleganger sceme going on?
Enough of that musing! We don't want to give the designers any hints, making their work easy, right?!?!
Now a quick word to 4th Ed. - I have visited the home page ad found out - well, close to nothing. Therefore I still hold myself back with any judgements (even though I doubt that I will buy much material except for FR books maybe....) |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 16:47:28
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Well Changelings are pretty easy to add as they tend to disappear into the background. Other origins can be the Unseen.
Warforged would be harder, but the Wizsite has a couple of origins for them.
It just takes a little work to bring them in. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 17:00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by eldritchknight
Hopefully they wont try to include the changeling into FR, try to explain how an entirely new race appears out of nowhere would be hard to do believably.
They've already done it, though, with other new PC races -- like the Deep Imaskari or the star elves.
I don't think it'd be too hard to incorporate them, just so long as it wasn't another Return and the new race is kept rare.
Considering we've already got the half-doppelganger concept in place, changelings aren't much of a stretch...
I think Ebber-whatsit's shifters could be dropped in, too, in small numbers -- because it's not all that much of a stretch to think the second or third generation offspring from a were could inherit only a small part of their parent or grandparent's heritage, rather than the either-or approach of being either totally were or totally normal. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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initiate
Learned Scribe
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 17:33:05
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When I think about it, as Wooly said, changelings wouldn't be that hard to incorporate into the Realms. Not entirely sure what WotC sees in them as a base race, [which doesn't mean that I don't like them, just that I'm not sure they need to be in the Player's Handbook], but since they are, incorporating them probably won't be that difficult. Dunno why I find the idea of changelings being a base race weird; suppose they just seem to exotic. In that way, I guess this could be a good move: plant more mildly unusual creatures in the base game to supplement the elves and dwarves and such. Shifters would likely work well too. Personally though, I hope they never try to "coreize" the warforged or kalashtar. Both those races have distinctively Eberronian origins, the alteration of which messes with their identity as races. Also, the warforged in particular are very Ebercentric in tone as well.
Just had a chance to poke around the WotC site a little more, and now realize what people have been talking about when they say they've been "logging in as a guest". I could be interpreting this wrong, but this is how I see it: When you try to read the majority of content on the site at this point, [in this case a Design and Development column], it asks you to log in. Once the place officially becomes "D&D insider" in October, logging in will almost certainly cost money. The message on the site says that, as a courtesy, I may read the content as a guest ,[for free], for the time being. I knew that the new incarnations of Dungeon and Dragon were going to be available by paid subscription, and such is only logical and right. However, as to the rest of the site, it seems that they are telling me that, but for their charity in these early days, I would have to pay for the privelege of reading content the equivalent of which I received two days ago for absolutely free. The impression I get is that nearly everything, [with minimal exceptions] will cost money now. Not sure I'm down with this.
Oh, and some of the Gen Con coverage blogs, [Rich Baker has one], are quite interesting, though the ones I've had a chance to look at have been relatively short on specifics, understandable as they're being written on spare time during the con. Unfortunately, none of the seminar runners for Secrets of the FR seems to have a blog.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 18:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Which is another thing I was puzzled about being sold as something new and improved, when it really isn't. At least, that's the impression *I* got.
3E is commonly (and I think often fairly) criticized for diluting the D&D archetypes, including by Gary Gygax himself. Evidently 4E tries (or wants to be seen) to correct this while keeping character 'builds' highly customizable. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 19:40:30
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Strangely, I am completely divided on this. Normally I'm adverse to change, simply because I feel I wasted my time learning the original system. However, I embraced 3e because I HATED 2e... I still have THACO nightmares.
When 3e came around, I saw many of my houserules implemented. Then the UA book came out, and two systems sounded like word-for-word adaptions of rules I've been playing with for at least 15 years.
Now I see that they're using some suggestions I've made about digital content - but I don't take credit for them, because obviously they working toward this goal before I ever made a single suggestion.
This could be GREAT, if done correctly. That's a big 'IF' - since the new concept relies heavily on the Internet, and they have proven in the last two days how incredibly inept their web-staff is.
To give you some idea of what I picture being great - running a session for some friends, and not having to buy any snacks. 
Of course, setting up a bunch of monitors around a table might be a little weird...
The books that we buy are full of errors, and often they realize the 'unplayability' of the content (don't they use playtesters anymore?), and change it down the road. This is done by changing a PrC and releasing a new version in the next book, or re-visiting a creature or concept in Dragon (which is no longer an option). We had to wait months, sometimes years, for the fixes. If we have two versions of every book, one hardcopy and one digital, then they could 'update' the digital version constantly, much the same way computer games and programs have 'updates' you can download to fix issues. This is a good thing, 'IF' handled correctly.
Also, one of the biggest problems they have is balancing stuff in books - crunch vs. fluff, Eberron vs. FR material, etc. I love the fact that the new MMs have the "In Faerūn" sidebars, but I don't really need the "In Eberron" ones - yet I paid for them. If the books come out plain 'vanilla', and the setting-specific data was available online, that would alleviate the problem of coming up with redunant information for each setting. It would also incorporate things like the Class Cronicles, having each new PrC (and race) introduced to a setting in the online content. In this way, you pay for the rules, and download the fluff you want (or need). It sounds tricky, and it is, but it could be an excellent solution to problem of 'balance' in sourcebooks.
The 'code' system sounds a little funky, but thats the way of the future. In WoW, my kids buy WoW cards that occassionally 'yield' a special item IG. My youngest buys 'Webkins', which works along similar lines, and so did the game Animal Crossing. I gaurantee there will be collectible cards (this IS WotC we are talking about), that will have codes to 'unlock' secrets on the web, or perhaps give you an added edge in the game. I'm not sure if I like that at all, but most games are going that way - with a set of associated cards that help IG. What that boils down to is that 'rich kids' have all the best geer.
The other thing I'm not too crazy about is that they never finished off 3e - we never got new books for the Lands of Intrigue, or the Old Empires, or even Cormyr. We could have had seperate boooks for the Lake of Steam region, the Shar, and the Utter east (my current 'pet project'). They could have even done new sourcebooks for Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara.
Hopefully, with all the new 'online' content, we will finally see the rest of Toril get some coverage.
Right now, I have a 'wait and see' attitude - but judging by the monumental screw-up of having their servers crash on release-day, I don't have high hopes. Some heads really should roll for that one...
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Originally posted by Jorkens
Hey on the positive side, maybe they can change the maps back to the original again
I've been trying....
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Originally posted by Alaundo
Aye, i'm not sure my bookcases can cope with another edition of such an extensive RPG system either
Thats TOO funny - my bookcase collapsed today, because I finally put ALL of the books back on the shelf. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
