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Originally posted by Erundur

My first post, and of course it will be linguistic in nature. I know that practically all modern fantasy is derived from the ideas of Tolkien, and as such a lot of "copying" will occur. Nevertheless, as time goes on and ideas are tested, I would think D&D writers would branch off more and explore their own ideas. I believe they have done so to a large extent.

However, am I the only one who sees the resemblance in the new race of "Eladrin" to Tolkien's "Eldar" (the Elves), whose languages are the "Eldarin"? The Eladrin from what I've read will be the elves currently represented by Sun and Moon elves. (Star elves, too?) While Tolkien's elves were largely woodsmen, they seem to represent the direct idea source of 2nd Edition's Grey Elves - distant, reclusive, elegant and almost immortal. If this connection between the Eladrin and Tolkien's Eldar is accurate, couldn't they have come up with a slightly different name?

Thoughts?

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Originally posted by Erundur


However, am I the only one who sees the resemblance in the new race of "Eladrin" to Tolkien's "Eldar" (the Elves), whose languages are the "Eldarin"? The Eladrin from what I've read will be the elves currently represented by Sun and Moon elves. (Star elves, too?) While Tolkien's elves were largely woodsmen, they seem to represent the direct idea source of 2nd Edition's Grey Elves - distant, reclusive, elegant and almost immortal. If this connection between the Eladrin and Tolkien's Eldar is accurate, couldn't they have come up with a slightly different name?

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[i]Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan




But most importantly, they are described in one of the core rule books, i. e. the Monster Manual (p. 93). I presume Eladrins were already part of 2nd ed.

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The eladrin are the native race of Arborea just as the baatezu are associated with Baator and the tanar'ri with the Abyss.

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Originally posted by Erundur

I've seen them before in previous creature descriptions, but I thought they looked eagle- or bird-like. I presumed it was another switcharoo of the WotC in which a word or creature represented something other that what it had been historically . So, from an eagle-like creature to a name for the fairer elves.

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The eladrins are the native race of Arborea, just as the baatezu are associated with Baator and the tanar’ri with the Abyss. They’re wild and free beings who exult in their own existence and live a life of song and celebration. The eladrins aid all people of good hearts against the forces of evil, but seek to do so with individual acts of kindness or heroism.

In Arborea, the eladrins move from place to place constantly, reveling in the natural beauty of the plane and seeking adventure. They’re defenders of goodness and freedom wherever it is threatened, and seek to counter the influences of tanar’ri and baatezu among mortals. To the eladrins, mortals should be free to choose their own destinies without fiendish interference; many of the more powerful eladrins constantly roam the planes and prime-material worlds, working against the baatezu and tanar’ri who seek to dominate these realms.

Although the individual types of eladrins are diverse in power and appearance, as a race they’re creatures of faerie grace, quickness, and beauty. Eladrins fall into two categories:

+ Lesser (bralani, coure, noviere, shiere)
+ Greater (firre, ghaele, tulani)

Lesser eladrins rarely leave the plane of Arborea, but greater eladrins can be found anywhere serving the cause of good.

COMBAT: All eladins can use the following spell-like powers once per round at will: alter self, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect evil, and phantasmal force. They're partially immune to the effects of many attack forms as shown below.

Attack Form Damage
Acid Full
Cold Half (None)
Electricity (lightning) None
Fire (dragon, magical) Half
Gas (poisonous, etc.) Half
Iron weapon Doubled (Full)
Magic missile None
Poison Full (Half)
Silver weapon Full*

Lesser eladrins’re vulnerable to weapons of cold-wrought iron and suffer double damage dice from any cold iron weapon that strikes them. If the cold iron weapon is enchanted, the eladrins ignore the double damage; the magic spoils the baneful properties of the blade. Greater eladrins don’t suffer double damage from a cold iron weapon, but they do suffer normal damage even if the weapon normally couldn’t hit them because of a lack of enchantment. For example, a greater eladrin normally hit only by +3 weapons or better can be damaged by a nonmagical cold iron weapon. Cold iron weapons have to be custom-made and cost twice as much as normal.
Silver weapons inflict full damage if they are sufficiently enchanted to be able to damage the eladrin anyway.

PLANAR TRAVEL: Any eladrin can travel to any Upper Plane. Ysgard, the Outlands, and the Astral Plane. Greater eladrins can travel to any Outer or Inner Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or any prime-material world. Unlike many fiends, eladrins can freely enter any world they can reach; they don’t have to wait until they’re summoned. However, eladrins are required to veil themselves when traveling in prime-material worlds. The same laws that force a baatezu or tanar’ri to subject itself to the manipulations of a wizard also prevent an eladrin from revealing its true nature except under the direst of circumstances.

When an eladrin is veiled, it takes on the guise of a creature native to the world it is journeying in. It may assume a human or demihuman form, pretending to be an adventurer or wandering bard. Once committed to its veil, it can’t do anythmg that its assumed identity couldn’t do whenever a mortal might be near enough to see. Should an eladrin violate its veil, it has to return to Arborea for 1,001 years before waking the prime-material worlds again. Usually the violator eladrin is allowed a brief time - a few minutes or an hour - to attend to any business it has to finish before it is called away.

THE COURT OF STARS: The magical and mysterious heart of the eladins lies in the Court of Stars, where the beautiful Queen Morwel reigns over her people. Morwel is sometimes called the Faerie Queen, the Lady of the Lake, or the Lady of Stars; she’s probably a demipower in her own right, and she’s surrounded by the brightest and most gracious of the eladrins. The Court moves from place to place throughout Arborea, existing only where night falls over the realm. The Court of Stars isn’t really the government of the eladrins as much as it is the heart or spirit of the race.
The eladrins’re on good terms with the elven pantheon and the Greek pantheon, but they tend to keep to the wilds of Arborea. When the eladrins visit Olympus, they often assume the forms of petitioners or forest spirits, veiling their true nature. In the elven realms, the eladrins feel free to show themselves for what they are.
On rare occasions, the eladrins join with the aasimon who serve the Greek and elven powers when some profound evil threatens all of Arborea. But for the most part, they prefer to leave the powers be and govern their own affairs.

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Originally posted by Caedwyr

Aasimon, Archons - LG
Guardinals - NG
Eldarin - CG
Can't remember off-hand
Rilmani - TN
Slaadi - CN
Baatezu - LE
Yugoloth - NE
Tanar'ri - CE

Plus several other species groups for each alignment. I have a feeling that the above list is going to be pruned somewhat.

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I agree with Kentinal about Corellon becoming the God of Magic in FR -- after all, why would they have eliminated all the other deities associated with magic from the Pantheon?

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And Rich Baker has admitted that they are going to "simplify" or "trim" the Pantheon -- James Wyatt writing that Corellon is going to be a deity worshipped by all the races this is becoming quite evident, don't you think?

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Taking this line of thought even further, perhaps Bane will slay Tempus and become a tyrannical God of War in the 'Points of Light' Faerûn? It would certainly fit the this concept.

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And I wouldn't be surprised anymore if Bahamut became the new God of Justice in FR, too -- perhaps Tyr is deemed "unworthy" of his portfolio after he killed Helm and Bahamut will "steal his stuff"? I certainly hope not, but it's a frightening possibility too.

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Didn't Rich say a while ago that the Warforged won't be in the Realms? Well, now he's stated that "every Core Race will be in the Realms, too". Maybe the same applies for deities

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ONLINE FANDOM RULE #1: If a situation is ever unclear, assume whatever it would take to drive you into a blind rage.

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[*]Elves - They're the ones who've made permanent homes on the Prime Material, and have been the most changed by it.
[*]Drow - Twisted versions of the Eladrin who've taken to living in the Underdark. They're changed from the Eladrin, but not so different as the Elves.
[*]Eladrin - Some make their home on the Prime Material, while others live in Arborea. They're the weakest of their Arborea dwelling kin.
[*]Coure
[*]Noviere
[*]Bralani
[*]Shiere
[*]Firre
[*]Ghaele
[*]Tulani - The most powerful of their kind. The Faerie Lords.

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It's a real shame they're making moon and sun elves eladrins! why, that would have been a perfect opportunity for WotC to make the FRCS more appealing to non-FR gamers: by including two new ELF subraces in the 2008 FRCS... tsk tsk tsk

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Originally posted by Venger

The last thing the Realms needs is even more Elven subraces. I'm perfectly fine wth seeing Wild Elves and Wood Elves folded into one race, and Moon Elves and Sun Elves folded into another race. Hell, I'd be fine with having all those elf subraces folded into one race. Physical characteristics and culture is all you need to differentiate one group from another. You don't need variable stat bonuses to do the job. Besides, it's ridiculous to have an Elf that provides a different stat bonus depending on what class you want to play. Playing a Wizard? Here's a +2 Int Elf. A Rogue? Here's a +2 Dex Elf. Want to play a Fighter? Here's an Elf with a +2 Str. Want to play a Barbarian with lots of hit points? Here's an Elf without a Con penalty. Want to play an uber elf? Here's a Drow. Enough with the proliferation of Elven subraces!

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Originally posted by Venger

ONLINE FANDOM RULE #1: If a situation is ever unclear, assume whatever it would take to drive you into a blind rage.

It's ridiculous. Some people, it seems, are so hellbent on being mad about the release of 4E that they're making all sorts of unfounded assumptions in order to get themselves nice and angry. If you're going to rant about something, then at least save some bandwidth and rant about something that's in black and white and which is a fact. Like what's written in Grand History of the Realms. So far, however, there has been no hint that Tempus is going to be killed*, that Tyr is getting replaced by Bahamut, that the Core Pantheon is going to replace the Faerunian Pantheon, etc. So how about saving the ranting for actual facts, rather then baseless assumptions?

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Its the Grand History of the Realms that mentioned that the Spellplague was the end of one world the the beginning of a "terrible" new one. And its the prologue to the Orc King that fuels a lot of the speculation as well. WOTC seems to want to brace fans for the absolute worst with some of their over the top terminology. Had they not used such terms, there may have been less speculation, but also less buzz.

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Originally posted by Venger

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They don't need to eliminate them in order to make Corellon a God of Magic. After all, he's a member of the Elven Pantheon, not the Faerunian Pantheon. So they can duplicate Portfolios without any trouble.

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Yet this (elimination of the Gods of Magic from the FR Pantheon) is what happened, because they deliberately wanted to remove some "overlap" in portfolios (at least according to Rich Baker). Note that Gorm and Haela got "axed" for the same reason and Clangeddin will apparently end up "stealing their stuff". I may be making some flagrant assumptions again, but I have a hunch that FR Pantheon will be more "multicultural" just like it is in the Core Rules (take a look at the Design & Development article about the Core Pantheon).

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That doesn't mean that the Core Pantheon will subsume the Faerunian Pantheon.

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No, it doesn't. Yet I suspect that it (and the 4E mechanics) may very well *influence* the FR Pantheon. I am reminded by Rich Baker's comment about new deities in FR -- it'd be logical to assume that they'll be "interlopers" from the Core Pantheon, since 4E Design Philosophy seems to be about "making a DM's life easier" (and the life of the designers, too). I honestly doubt that they'll actually "brainstorm" any new and original deities for FR -- it is easier for them and all FR DMs (at least if you want to run Core Modules in FR) if these "newcomers" are simply taken from the Core Pantheon.

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Or maybe like many other gods who're worshipped on several different worlds, he'll have different Portfolios in the core setting then he will in Faerun? Tyr, for example, is a Greater God of Justice in the Faerunian Pantheon. But in the Asgardian Pantheon, he's only an Intermediate God, and has five Portfolios, none of which are Justice. Similarly with Lolth, who on Oerth has two less Portfolios then she does on Faerun.

And Bane himself is worshipped on Ravenloft, too, where he has the Portfolio of Tyranny, but NOT the Portfolios of Fear or Hatred. Instead, he has about four or five other Portfolios in their place (Lathander's also worshipped in Ravenloft, where he's Chaotic Good, instead of Neutral Good). So just because Bane is the God of War in the Core Pantheon, it doesn't mean that he's going to be killing Tempus and taking his stuff in the Faerunian Pantheon.

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Oh, it's a possibility. Yet if that is the case, then James Wyatt -- a very experienced RPG designer -- did not do his homework (a bit unlikely). In any case, I'm only speculating on this. However, I'm fairly certain that Garagos and Anhur will be subsumed by Tempus -- three deities of War will probably be too "complicated" for 4E target audience. ;)

It's true that different settings often portray different aspects of a deity. There're actually many aliases and aspects for deities even in the different lands of Faerûn (e.g. Akadi, Lolth and Talos) -- not to mention heresies and local cults.

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Has there been any indication whatsoever that Tyr is going to be gone in the 4E Realms? Any shred of evidence whatsoever? If not, then why do you consider that a possibility?

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No, but I was thinking of how Tyr behaved very "uncharacteristically" (for a God of Justice) in slaying Helm and subsequently hiding his hand in the affair. Why Tyr? Why not just Cyric, or Talos, or even (*shudder*) Shar? That might indicate that there is some sort of hidden purpose behind this messy and illogical event -- i.e. Tyr being convicted of the death of Helm and being replaced by Bahamut. Again, this is all pure speculation, but I *am* yet again reminded by Rich Baker's comment about "new deities" in the Realms, and Bahamut would be a suitable "replacement" for Tyr (especially since he already *is* venetrated in the Realms).

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Once again, what shred of proof do you have to support this conclusion? Do you have anything at all? How does "every core race being in the Realms" suddenly equal "the Core Pantheon supplanting the Faerunian Pantheon"? Well, many of the Greyhawk gods are sticking around. So is Pelor going to show up in the Realms, too? Is Lathander going to be killed off along with Tempus and Tyr?

Boy, the more these 4E discussions wind on, the more I'm reminded of this particular quote.

[quote]ONLINE FANDOM RULE #1: If a situation is ever unclear, assume whatever it would take to drive you into a blind rage.

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It's ridiculous. Some people, it seems, are so hellbent on being mad about the release of 4E that they're making all sorts of unfounded assumptions in order to get themselves nice and angry. If you're going to rant about something, then at least save some bandwidth and rant about something that's in black and white and which is a fact. Like what's written in Grand History of the Realms. So far, however, there has been no hint that Tempus is going to be killed*, that Tyr is getting replaced by Bahamut, that the Core Pantheon is going to replace the Faerunian Pantheon, etc. So how about saving the ranting for actual facts, rather then baseless assumptions?

*Yeah, Bane was reffered to in that article as the God of War in Faerun, but the guy most likely misspoke, conflating Core Pantheon Bane for Faerunian Pantheon Bane.

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Originally posted by DestroyYouAlot

Which brings me to something I've wanted to see for a long time, around here: What are the odds that we can get some edition-specific forums at Candlekeep?

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Originally posted by Alaundo

[quote]Well met

Certainly a resonable idea, DestroyYouAlot, and not to be ruled out. I suppose the best thing to do is see how the ratio pans out after the release of 4e to see if it is warranted.

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Originally posted by dwarvenranger

All, I know is that this garbage I read on EN world about dwarves having been slaves to the giants better not make it into the final version or I'll be addin game designer to my list of favored enemiesSuch utter nonsense should have never been entertained in the most foolish of imaginations. If it's true it's enough of a reason for me not to be converting.

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

I actually don't think these racial concepts are bad in and of themselves, but that doesn't mean I'd like to see them in the Realms setting.

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Originally posted by The Red Walker

I think the time is past due that we at the 'keep start on Forgotten Realms Fe (Fan edition)

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