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Inaubryn
Acolyte
40 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 09:32:32
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| By the way... the god all you guys are looking for is Moander. Sure he's dead and all, but since when has that been an issue in DnD? |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 13:43:09
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| Technically he is not dead - he is imprisoned and tries to break free and regain his divinity. Just two chosen or one avatar is enough for him to become god again, and so he sits and plots ... |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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lycurgus33
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 00:45:34
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| What's the technicality based on? From what I read in Song of the Saurials Moander is as dead as the bag of frozen vegetables I picked up from the supermarket this afternoon. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 01:07:31
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He's mentioned in more recent sources as not being completely dead. Don't remember which ones, though--sorry. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 01:27:12
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There's a nice follow-up to what Moander is up to in Powers of Faerûn; it builds on Realmslore from Volo's Guide to the Dalelands -- see the section on "Tsornyl."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 22 Oct 2007 01:30:37 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 03:19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There's a nice follow-up to what Moander is up to in Powers of Faerûn; it builds on Realmslore from Volo's Guide to the Dalelands -- see the section on "Tsornyl."
Is that Powers of Faerun
OR
Power of Faerun? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 04:05:19
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Thanks Sage...didn't want to go skimming through another book (not sure if I have Powers of Faerun??? But it might be in a box!) only to not be able to find the info! LOL
What section in PoF is that in by the way...LOL |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 12:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by lycurgus33
What's the technicality based on? From what I read in Song of the Saurials Moander is as dead as the bag of frozen vegetables I picked up from the supermarket this afternoon.
Btw, you shouldn't be so sure about those frozen vegetables being dead these days. And surely I wouldn't eat them after claiming dead the god of rotting and decay, old Moandy can take it on a personal level you know.
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 17:35:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
quote:
Originally posted by lycurgus33
What's the technicality based on? From what I read in Song of the Saurials Moander is as dead as the bag of frozen vegetables I picked up from the supermarket this afternoon.
Btw, you shouldn't be so sure about those frozen vegetables being dead these days. And surely I wouldn't eat them after claiming dead the god of rotting and decay, old Moandy can take it on a personal level you know.
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The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 12:52:44
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I just had the chance to see the new stat cards from the new miniature series Desert of Desolation that will be available on 3rd November (Worldwide Game Day). The promo figure will be with the old stats and the new ones.
On the first glance there are a lot of changes, and without rules I’m pondering what the hack …  
So – just let us all participate on Game Day and let’s have a look on the changes. As one of the DM’s in Germany I’m also inviting you to come to the event location in Mainz – just let me know how many hundreds of scribes will be there  .
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lycurgus33
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2007 : 17:52:43
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*chuckles*
I've been thinking about this from a new angle: Marvel Comics. For decades they had only one "universe" but it seems like it got to the point where there was just so much canon backstory that they seem to have done Universe SE's with the side effect of simplifying things. That and they've launched totally new universe lines with the same iconic characters (The "Ultimates").
My point is, is there a point where there's just so much history of printed material and backstories and so forth from so many different authors in a "universe" that it becomes just prohibitive for a new writer or customer to work in or enjoy a "universe"? Is this part of where the designers are coming from? Like a totally new fan would balk at picking up Spiderman #438 but would buy Ultimate Spiderman #1? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 21:30:40
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I think we're gonna see more of DC's Crisis, then Marvel's Ultimates. "Disaterous Merging of two Worlds", remember? 
Anyhow, I think part of the plan was to merge the miniatures game better with the core rules, so now you can not only run your combats with the figures, but with the stat cards as well.
Paizo started releasing 'encounter packs' of metal miniatures, which were pretty good for running an adventure scenario. Now it seems WotC has similar plans (isn't there a 'Drizzt pack' out or in the works?)
You buy a pack of minis, and it comes with a pre-set encounter. Instant Adventure - just add water.
It'll go over big with the kiddies. 
Simplified NPCs has been one of their 4e 'calling cards', after all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 21:33:10
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| Of course, I think this is what they plan on doing. It's a heck of a lot easier to jump in with little lore and go from there than to worry about the volumes and volumes of lore that lay behind. Personally, I think they took the model that was most successful right now in the gaming industy and merely applied it to old material. Joys of the intarwebz, ya know? |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 23:15:07
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| The problem, obviously enough, is that the qualities of superhero comics that survive and even thrive on resets and revisionings are not the qualities of the Realms that we most value. It's the detailed process and implementation of the Realms, exactly its weave, that I love, whereas I always disliked the concept of 'iconic characters'. Elminster, for instance, is not interesting as an image or even, particularly, as a voice. He's worthwhile as a nuanced literary creation, a framing device and a symbol of the lore-weave. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 01:53:44
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I just the read the latest Dragon article about the 4E Core Pantheon, and much to my surprise they had included *Bane* in it. Yes, the very same Bane that is familiar to us all. Now, while I felt a bit perplexed by this, I wouldn't be against the idea, if there was some logical reason for this. What did James (Wyatt) actually say in the article? Quote:
quote:
"There was a time when the team working on "the world" of D&D thought we could get away with creating general rules useful to clerics regardless of which pantheon existed in the campaign, and then presenting a variety of fictional and historical pantheons for DMs to adopt or adapt as they saw fit. I believe it was Stacy Longstreet, the senior D&D art director, who pointed out that this solution would leave us in a bit of a bind.
When we wanted to put a temple in an adventure, what god would it be dedicated to? We could make Generic Evil Temples™, but that would sap a lot of the flavor out of our adventures, and rob us of specific plot hooks and story lines based on the portfolios and histories of these gods.
When we wanted to illustrate a cleric in one of our books, what holy symbol would the cleric hold? Again, we could rely on a stable of generic symbols (maybe the Zapf Dingbat font?), but at the cost of a lot of flavor.
We ended up creating a new pantheon. At first, we used some of the gods from 3rd Edition as placeholder names -- we thought we'd come up with new names for [Pelor] the sun god and [Moradin] the god of the forge. Ultimately we decided that using some familiar faces was preferable to giving our players a whole new set of names to learn. Besides, if a god looks like an elf and took out the orc-god's eye like a certain well-known elf god, why not call him Corellon?
I don't know about you, but I find these arguments to be pretty weak. First of all, I think the Core Pantheon worked just fine in 3E -- mechanically, it practically showcased how to deal with portfolios and domains for different types of deities (assuming you wanted to create your own pantheon). This was made even easier by the release of the 'Demigods and Deities'. In addition to this, I never found it especially hard to replace Hextor with Bane or Heironeus with Torm in any published generic adventure. And speaking of the art (which James seems as a big problem, in terms of flavour) -- so what if the BBEG has a symbol of Vecna on his robes? Does it really mean that you can't use any flavour at all if one detail (which your players most likely won't even notice) in the module's art is "wrong"? I am used to rewriting a lot of stuff (flavour and NPCs especially) anyway to fit the module into my campaign better. Is this (once again) about the design philosophy behind 4E -- "you will able to drop things out of the books without *ANY* prep!"
So now they're going to write generic 'Points of Light'-adventures that feature a very prominent *FR* deity which many DMs won't probably want to include in Greyhawk or their own homebrew settings? How is this any different from how things were in 3E? You still need to replace those deities in the generic adventures, anyway -- unless you choose to include the whole 4E Pantheon "as is" in your campaigns. Or -- *shudder* -- is this 4E Pantheon (more or less) going to replace the FR Pantheon, too? Rich Baker *did* speak about "new gods" in FR...
James claims that presenting "familiar" deities was "preferable", but I think that the 3E Core Pantheon was more familiar to most gamers than Bahamut or Bane. Maybe it was preferable to them? I honestly suspect that this is actually about deadlines (they've got too much work on their hands) or just a case of simple "laziness" ("It will take too much work to create a new and thoroughly written Pantheon -- let's just steal the deities from various sources! It's no big deal -- our fans don't care about those deities so much anyway!"). Would it really have taken too much time to design a generic "showcase" 4E pantheon, customized for the 'Points of Light' concept? Or is this a case of game mechanics concerning the cleric class becoming so "specialized" (i.e. a bunch of 'traditions' similar to those of the Wizard class) that they actually need a very "focused" Pantheon?
P.S. Did you notice that James refers to Bane as "Forgotten Realms' god of tyranny and war"? Either Bane's going to kill Tempus and "steal his stuff" (to use another 4E trademark expression ) or someone should make sure that James does *not* work on any 4E FR products, because he needs to learn to study his sources a bit more thoroughly. In either case, this article just reassured my opinions about 4E most likely not being my cup of tea. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 02:28:15
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I noticed that war addition to Bane's resume as well.
Its funny that they are talking about not having enough "hooks" for PC clerics in core books, when one of the most popular features in Dragon over the last few years was the "Core Beliefs" articles, which was filling in and detailing the faiths of the Core/Greyhawk Pantheon. So WOTC couldn't do it in the core books, but Dragon could make a go of it in their articles?
And while I much prefer the FR pantheon (pre 1385 DR), why is a patchwork pantheon of recognizable gods from various sources easier to use than one that has built in hooks? Hextor and Heironeous were brothers . . . great hook for conflict between their followers. Nobody in the pantheon likes or trust Vecna . . . Boccob was trying to keep magic from disappearing, and he is served by a nutjob demigod (oh yeah, I forgot, there shouldn't be any gods of magic, lest the players think that god will show up personally and scold them, because that is what they do).
Except that Corellon is mentioned as being worshiped by humans and even some dwarves as a god of magic . . . gack.
I think the 4th edition design team may have spent a bit too much time pondering the Far Realm . . . |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 02:48:28
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*shudders*
"Corellon is still associated with elfy things like arcane magic and the Feywild, and he still hates Lolth and the drow. "
He never hated the Drow, or else he always hated his daughter.
However we might have replacemenent for Mystria in this comment. After all Corellon is deity of Elven magic. *shrugs*
What they offer will be offered. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 05:00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I noticed that war addition to Bane's resume as well.
Its funny that they are talking about not having enough "hooks" for PC clerics in core books, when one of the most popular features in Dragon over the last few years was the "Core Beliefs" articles, which was filling in and detailing the faiths of the Core/Greyhawk Pantheon. So WOTC couldn't do it in the core books, but Dragon could make a go of it in their articles?
I think the 4th edition design team may have spent a bit too much time pondering the Far Realm . . .
First, I do not think that 4E realms will see an influx of deities from the core game. Bahamut may be suddenly be relevant to the realms, but I do not see this as huge.
I understand people's misgivings. If Corellon is being untethered from the elves, what then becomes of the rest of the elven pantheon, around which you have based your campaigns and stories. I suspect they will be in the game as options, demipowers who serve Corellon, etc.
I also think that Bane in the core game will be slightly different from Bane in the FR, as is often the case with Gods who exist in two different realms. On Oerth, or wherever the core game is set, there may be no god of war and so Bane assumes this mantle, but in FR Tyr will surely keep his portfolio. Perhaps Bane will covet the portfolio of war in FR, leading to interesting adventures and plots, etc.
Finally, perhaps it is just a way for Wizards to save page count in the FR guide, since his info and the powers for his clerics will be detailed in the core book, lol :-) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 15:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
[quote][i]First, I do not think that 4E realms will see an influx of deities from the core game. Bahamut may be suddenly be relevant to the realms, but I do not see this as huge.
I understand people's misgivings. If Corellon is being untethered from the elves, what then becomes of the rest of the elven pantheon, around which you have based your campaigns and stories. I suspect they will be in the game as options, demipowers who serve Corellon, etc.
I also think that Bane in the core game will be slightly different from Bane in the FR, as is often the case with Gods who exist in two different realms. On Oerth, or wherever the core game is set, there may be no god of war and so Bane assumes this mantle, but in FR Tyr will surely keep his portfolio. Perhaps Bane will covet the portfolio of war in FR, leading to interesting adventures and plots, etc.
The Core Setting won't be Greyhawk -- it's the widely-critized 'Points of Light', which will have a unique Pantheon (or an amalgam Pantheon of deities from various sources).
I agree with Kentinal about Corellon becoming the God of Magic in FR -- after all, why would they have eliminated all the other deities associated with magic from the Pantheon? And Rich Baker has admitted that they are going to "simplify" or "trim" the Pantheon -- James Wyatt writing that Corellon is going to be a deity worshipped by all the races this is becoming quite evident, don't you think?
Taking this line of thought even further, perhaps Bane will slay Tempus and become a tyrannical God of War in the 'Points of Light' Faerûn? It would certainly fit the this concept. And I wouldn't be surprised anymore if Bahamut became the new God of Justice in FR, too -- perhaps Tyr is deemed "unworthy" of his portfolio after he killed Helm and Bahamut will "steal his stuff"? I certainly hope not, but it's a frightening possibility too. Didn't Rich say a while ago that the Warforged won't be in the Realms? Well, now he's stated that "every Core Race will be in the Realms, too". Maybe the same applies for deities -- you know, so you won't need to bother wasting any prep time on coverting any details in a generic module ("You'll be able to drop *any* module into FR without *any* work -- isn't that cool? Doesn't it *ROCK*?")  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 18:26:14
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Bane as a god of war?
Great, I wonder what new 4E Realms tidbit we'll hear next. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 19:21:21
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| Shar's added the portfolio of knowledge to her existing portfolios of loss, darkness and forgetfulness (among others) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 20:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
Shar's added the portfolio of knowledge to her existing portfolios of loss, darkness and forgetfulness (among others)
OK, I have to ask. You are joking, right? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 20:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
Shar's added the portfolio of knowledge to her existing portfolios of loss, darkness and forgetfulness (among others)
OK, I have to ask. You are joking, right?
Yes, wondering the same thing? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 21:43:10
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Yes, I was making a failed attempt at humour.  |
Edited by - Caedwyr on 30 Oct 2007 21:44:34 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 22:32:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
Yes, I was making a failed attempt at humour.
Sorry to burst your bubble, then. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 06:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
Yes, I was making a failed attempt at humour.
That's what I thought. But with things being as they are, nothing will really surprise me anymore when it comes to WotC and the Realms. With Shar as the deity of knowledge she could cause the inhabitants of the Realms to forget the last 150 years. Now it is the day of the new, improved Realms. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 16:34:22
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It wouldn't make sense anyways, she would have had to kill Oghma to obtain the Knowledge portfolio. I would not be surprised to find that she obtained the Magic portfolio considering her part in the murder of Mystra, but I sincerely hope not. If the Core deities are any example, somehow Corellon Larethian got his hands on it. I hope the whole watering down racial pantheons is not going to be (but expect that it will be) the trend for the 4e Realms. And it saddens me that they made room for Ed to work on the 4e FRCG but not the 4e FRPG (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide). Grr...I hope they are not charging $40 for each of them unless each is as long as the 3e FRCS. Getting that sick feeling in my stomach again thinking about it.  |
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Edited by - Hawkins on 31 Oct 2007 16:36:19 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 19:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
It wouldn't make sense anyways, she would have had to kill Oghma to obtain the Knowledge portfolio. I would not be surprised to find that she obtained the Magic portfolio considering her part in the murder of Mystra, but I sincerely hope not. If the Core deities are any example, somehow Corellon Larethian got his hands on it. I hope the whole watering down racial pantheons is not going to be (but expect that it will be) the trend for the 4e Realms. And it saddens me that they made room for Ed to work on the 4e FRCG but not the 4e FRPG (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide). Grr...I hope they are not charging $40 for each of them unless each is as long as the 3e FRCS. Getting that sick feeling in my stomach again thinking about it.
That time it was me trying to make a joke. |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
